12 barrel rolls...

[reflected]

...all of them faster than a human could ever do. That's what the good old AI did as an evasive maneuver AGAIN. But this time I counted.

Can you imagine how much fun I'm having? NONE!

Please, please, if this stupid AI is a placeholder, please tell us, and tell us when you're planning to fix it, but this is unacceptable.

[kimosabi]

Barrel rolls? I'm only saying straight rolls. Alot of them. lol

[raaaid]

its better to bnz ai and try to caught it unware by shooting close

[Lixma]

Looks very much like IL-2's AI routines we're seeing. I actually wondered how hard would it be to just give the AI the same FM limits as the players' so we wouldn't see any more high speed acrobatics. But I imagine we'd then see a huge increase in the AI planting themselves into the ground because they tried to pull off some daft manoeuvre in a plane no longer able to pull it off. I really don't envy the programmers on this issue....must be a nightmare.

Mind you i've been very impressed with some of the AI i've encountered while flying 1v1 duels.

[Kakashi]

Looks very much like IL-2's AI routines we're seeing. I actually wondered how hard would it be to just give the AI the same FM limits as the players' so we wouldn't see any more high speed acrobatics. But I imagine we'd then see a huge increase in the AI planting themselves into the ground because they tried to pull off some daft manoeuvre in a plane no longer able to pull it off. I really don't envy the programmers on this issue....must be a nightmare.

Mind you i've been very impressed with some of the AI i've encountered while flying 1v1 duels.

I read somewhere that this superhuman AI characteristics came into the play because players would always beat them if they have regular limits. Cause its hard to build a good AI that will be able to best a descent player in a 1v1.

You know what to some extend yes why not?! But only on FIGHTERS !!!! How are you going to give heavy bombers the possibilities to out maneuver a spitfire !!! It completely kills the immersion for me! Even an extremely good pilot can not out maneuver a fighter with a bomber! They are supposed to be moving targets !!! xD If a bomber could out maneuver fighters, then why bother with all the turrets/fighter escort?! xD

Anyways hope they fix it for bombers definately, and bring it down a notch for fighters!

Quite frankly it wouldn't matter to me, I still can't play this game right now :(

[kimosabi]

Well if you, in a fighter, gets outmaneuvered by a bomber, even if the bomber AI has perfect trim and all seeing eye etc. that's a PEBKAC phenomenon. Level up!

[CharveL]

First off, I'd agree that the AI needs this fixed and improvement in general, but it's not as bad as you make it out to be. Well, the bomber barrel rolls are...odd...but I'm also sure it's fairly high up in the priority list.

Secondly, it's simply not currently feasible to give AI the same FM as the player. You think the game is resource hungry now, just add in one or even two AI planes with it and you'll quickly see the point of necessity for the canned AI routines.

With that said, there is a lot more complexity under the hood of CoD's AI than IL2, especially in terms of relative skill levels, situational awareness and decision making. Stuff you don't see that isn't so blatantly obvious as the behavioural bug with the manic barrel rolls.

I doubt it will be all that long before it is addressed.

[mazex]

...all of them faster than a human could ever do. That's what the good old AI did as an evasive maneuver AGAIN. But this time I counted.

Can you imagine how much fun I'm having? NONE!

Please, please, if this stupid AI is a placeholder, please tell us, and tell us when you're planning to fix it, but this is unacceptable.

Well, last time I played X-plane 9 that is haussed by many as having such a good FM I could do five barrel rolls in a row with a 747 right after takeoff... That's a lot worse than an AI that needs some tweaking (which has happened in that last patch from what I understand?)

I will download the latest version of X-plane and see if I can still do it ;) Gotta buy it by the way even though I don't like it to support the shrinking community. I think it may be the only sim I don't own that is on sale today. As I heard it they are home safe anyway after releasing that iPhone app that made more cash than they had done up to that date on the PC version? Really sad, but that's what fits todays market of people zapping around in reality with an attention span of < 60 minutes. Those people sure can't wait a few weeks for patches but just axe everything without hesitation and move on to the next app or channel...

[Pbs]

This is not real-life AI, this is AI-that-simulate-another-player. In online you will fights against humans, and they will do exactly same things. Also, there is bots in online battles, with same AI.

So, this AI perfectly prepares gamers to online battles, and perfectly replace real pilots in online. If you want more realistic AI for offline campaigns and missions, ask ANOTHER AI, but this one good enough.

[Breakfastmachine]

I certainly can't make my plane roll at the rate AI is able to. Neither can anyone online for that matter.

[ICDP]

This is not real-life AI, this is AI-that-simulate-another-player. In online you will fights against humans, and they will do exactly same things. Also, there is bots in online battles, with same AI.

So, this AI perfectly prepares gamers to online battles, and perfectly replace real pilots in online. If you want more realistic AI for offline campaigns and missions, ask ANOTHER AI, but this one good enough.

What total and utter bullshit!

AI is NOT solely to train people before they go online. It is to give those who have no interest in going online a way to play SP missions that are believable. When the AI bombers start barrel rolling it makes offliners wince and go play other sims.

The AI needs fixed, it's that simple. Oh and online players are not the epitomy of a simmer, by far the majority play offline. Or maybe you think the handfull of people who play online are a majority? If it is then the total sales of CoD must be in the hundreds.

Even Oleg said onliners are only 5% of total sales.

[reflected]

Agreed, total BS.
The majority of players play offline. they need AI planes to fight against. If you make a 109 do 12 consecutive rolls at the rate of an F16 it certainly is hard to shoott down, but do you seriously think that is the point?! I'll make an FPS game where your targets do backflips and run at 60 mph while they vibrate in rainbow colors. Hard to shoot down? yes. Fun? no. Realistic (the point of a simulator, you know)? hell no.

And what a pathetic excuse: "it's too hard to make an AI that is challenging while subject to the same FM and physics." LOL....LOL!
Man, fire up good old BoB2 WoV and then we can talk.

[CharveL]

And what a pathetic excuse: "it's too hard to make an AI that is challenging while subject to the same FM and physics." LOL....LOL!
Man, fire up good old BoB2 WoV and then we can talk.

Ok shhhhh, it's all gonna be ok...settle...settle...

You just killed your point by bringing up BoB2:WoV but I get what you're saying. We all know the AI needs improvement (well, most of us) but it's not simply a matter of giving every single AI the same FM as the player and letting them go.

I'm starting to suspect that amongst their other feature implementation issues with the rushed release, that there is only one AI routine for all the planes until they can plug the numbers in for each type. Just a bit of a guess though it makes some sense why bombers will try to evade the same way as a 109. This also means a lot of tweaking for individual planes.

Bottom line though is, out of necessity, they have to make a simpler, canned FM for AI unless you just want to have only one or two other planes in the air. It's basically a shortcut that, when tweaked properly, will act more like the real plane should once they fix them.

[raaaid]

i love the ai of this game :)

in fact ill have a hard time telling ai from human online

yeah i want retard ai which cant defend itself and kill it time after time with no risk

man give ai a break maybe the ai pilots got even some feelings programmed and they want to shoot you some time and not being shot down time after time

edit:

oh i got shot down online by bombers doing circles :)

[David198502]

in my opinion AI definetely needs a change.i fly the bf only now, and even beaufighters outroll me.thats strange and annoying.i also dont like the fact that spits and hurris fly with landingflaps doing low speed high siccors,while i have to fight not to stall.then a second later they outrun me.its hard to shoot ai.thats the only plus.(its a challenge)but its not realistic.

[jimbop]

Ok shhhhh, it's all gonna be ok...settle...settle...

You just killed your point by bringing up BoB2:WoV but I get what you're saying. We all know the AI needs improvement (well, most of us) but it's not simply a matter of giving every single AI the same FM as the player and letting them go.


Had to lol at this... He killed his point by pointing out that an 'inferior' sim does something better than the 'gold standard'? Nice elitist attitude... CoD won't be the gold standard until stuff like this is sorted out. I agree that canned AI is likely necessary but wish it would be a little more plausible.

[Redroach]

I've got to get online and start barrel rolling like a madman! Seems I will be invincible then!

[esmiol]

IA is not so bad! there things to change ok...but in the most of time it is good...

maybe some must learn to fly before raging against IA :)

[reflected]

IA is not so bad! there things to change ok...but in the most of time it is good...

maybe some must learn to fly before raging against IA :)

dude...

what do my flying abilities have to do with the AI that does 12 consecutive rolls at the rate of an F-16 7 times out of 10?

Seriously?
:rolleyes:

[Jotaele]

Totally agree here, i can beat Ai , but that does not means that i enjoy it, specially with those barrel rolls at high speed.I usually have to wait until he has ended of doing rolls , then i dive to shoot down him, you cant simply follow it.
Try a experiment , use g50 against g50. At same vel. he makes 3 rolls while you are doing 1.

[unreasonable]

Even Oleg said onliners are only 5% of total sales.

Unfortunately they make 95% of the noise in the forums.

I also get the impression that the devs (including Oleg) had little or no interest in SP, given the failure over so many years to address any of the glaring and easily fixable shortcomings in IL2 1946's SP game. I am hoping for better this time around but I am not holding my breath.

[blampars]

I play this game for about 45 minutes every time a patch is released. Last patch, I watched a 109 do the 8 rolls and shoot into the sky like a f16. I Shut the game off right after that. That's just stupid.

Ill fly online at some point, probably when I can get more than 27fps looking forward in the cockpit. Looks like the AI isn't going to be too much fun nor immersive any time soon :rolleyes:

[raaaid]

all right the mistakes youre making:

more is less:

your climbing at 200 kph, you have to climb at 300 kph

you over rev your engine

listen to the amazing engine sound keep it so it sounds : tac tac tac


if you cant tell the tacs your over rev your engine i keep it at 2000 rpm

bnz and keep an e advantage dont stop the power when youre behind, this doesnt work neither online

this is the first ai that i enjoy fighting

ill let you into a secrte

have you read enders game?

oleg is messing with time travel ai is not ai but real pilots flying real planes, your controlling a remote controlled fighter

oh yeah those riders are too good for me dumb them down

this is life man aint easy

[blampars]

all right the mistakes youre making:

more is less:

your climbing at 200 kph, you have to climb at 300 kph

you over rev your engine

listen to the amazing engine sound keep it so it sounds : tac tac tac


if you cant tell the tacs your over rev your engine i keep it at 2000 rpm

bnz and keep an e advantage dont stop the power when youre behind, this doesnt work neither online

this is the first ai that i enjoy fighting

ill let you into a secrte

have you read enders game?

oleg is messing with time travel ai is not ai but real pilots flying real planes, your controlling a remote controlled fighter

oh yeah those riders are too good for me dumb them down

this is life man aint easy

Funny, I don't recall you looking over my shoulder while I fly this sim...

This is life it ain't easy? You think I'm 13 crying about having to work for money?

This is sim software with borked AI. Not life.
and no I'm not saying the AI should be easy, but I should be able to *somewhat* match the maneuver.

[raaaid]

do you know what is a stall roll?

if you roll to much the plane it stalls

how do you roll it too much?

applying rudder, not only stick

and of course going at an speed at which you have strength to control the surfaces

ai is outrolling you by keeping closer to the stall limit

hell ai is now out turning me this is not the old il2 where i outerned ai gladiators with a 190:rolleyes:

jump online

are you able to tell ai from human?

tell me how

[blampars]

So I went back a few pages and looked at your roll video. Yup your rolls look like my rolls. Now explain to me why the AI can do probably 4 rolls in the time it takes you to do 1, on top of whatever else they may do. And why you think its ok the AI work like that.

Stall roll blah blah. Let me see you roll like the AI.
yes I can tell the difference between AI and human. Humans can't roll their simulated planes like the AI can.

Done deal.

[Blue Scorpion]

This is not real-life AI, this is AI-that-simulate-another-player. In online you will fights against humans, and they will do exactly same things. Also, there is bots in online battles, with same AI.

So, this AI perfectly prepares gamers to online battles, and perfectly replace real pilots in online. If you want more realistic AI for offline campaigns and missions, ask ANOTHER AI, but this one good enough.

Horeshit, this is billed as a simulator; currently it simulates nothing playing offline, it leads to situations that simply never happened, which is NOT the role of a simulation; it currently simulates air warfare during WW2 about as well as HAWX.

It does not prepare players for multiplayer, people using Luftwaffe aircraft against the ai, are in for a serious disappointment, when they realise that hurries & spits run circles around them, leaving them completely un prepared for what they will face online.

There really is no good reason for it, we all know and accept the ai will never be as good as a human, which is why players turn to multiplayer when they want the challenge. Single play offers a structured environment in which to play through specific scenarios, re-creating situations that occurred at the time, which generally do not work well on multiplayer pug servers. Moreover, the number of aircraft involved in the typical single player mission negates many ai deficiencies, through weight of numbers, and the changing situation, removing any need for boosting.

It was this same nonsense used in IL2 which rendered most offline play useless from an historical or simulation perspective. Players could not manually take off and stay in formation on full real, as engines burn out trying to keep up with boosted ai; or enemy aircraft outperform counterparts that walked all over them irl.

Boosting performance and removing physical restrictions from the ai, all because of 1V1 single player performance is a farce, and destroys any notion this can be considered a simulation; it is little more than half-baked, arcade crap.

[Mysticpuma]

Man, fire up good old BoB2 WoV and then we can talk.

Agree completely. Singularly the best AI I have ever fought against in a WW2 Theatre.

Getting onto the 6 of a 109 and then 3-minutes later being low on the deck in a Rolling Scissors manouevre and not gaining or losing advantage, now that AI was simply brilliant!

I still wait to play CloD as my Graphics card isn't up to scratch (getting a 560 Frozr next-week), but to hear that we have the same Barrel Roll routine is just another piece of the Hangman's Scaffold for me :(

However, IL2 reached fruition after 10-years....so there is time ;)

Cheers, MP

[Sauf]

Agree completely. Singularly the best AI I have ever fought against in a WW2 Theatre.

Getting onto the 6 of a 109 and then 3-minutes later being low on the deck in a Rolling Scissors manouevre and not gaining or losing advantage, now that AI was simply brilliant!

I still wait to play CloD as my Graphics card isn't up to scratch (getting a 560 Frozr next-week), but to hear that we have the same Barrel Roll routine is just another piece of the Hangman's Scaffold for me :(

However, IL2 reached fruition after 10-years....so there is time ;)

Cheers, MP

MP, when you get your new card I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the game. Ive been playing on the SYN servers and am having a blast, 126 hours in game according to steam, (had WOP and played for 1 day, must uninstall it, and haven't logged into hyperlobby for over a week). Beats anything I have played in the flight sim genre. I treat missons like rl and my average flight time per misson is 1 hour, just navagating and trying to make it back to base with a damaged a/c is mind blowing in its complexity. Sure its got bugs that need working on, but with maddox games history Im not worried on that score, look at the patches we have had already. Anyway just my 2cents worth.
S`

[DC338]

do you know what is a stall roll?

if you roll to much the plane it stalls

how do you roll it too much?

applying rudder, not only stick

and of course going at an speed at which you have strength to control the surfaces

ai is outrolling you by keeping closer to the stall limit

hell ai is now out turning me this is not the old il2 where i outerned ai gladiators with a 190:rolleyes:

jump online

are you able to tell ai from human?

tell me how

Can I get some of the S%^T you have been smoking? NFI!!!!!

[palker4]

Anyone who says that AI is allright is probably blind. I just played sveral dogfight even quick missions and what i saw is pathetic. Spit circling around i cannot catch him until i realise that the pilot is dead (via externals)climbed higher and then used my enrgy to cath him and finish him of. After that i took spit againdt 109s same story could catch them eve fried my engine trying to keep up. When my wingman has a bandit on his tail and is screaming for help i cannot help him cause i cannot get close enough to get the shot and it does not matter what plane i am using the still same story. Hurri in 400 km/h doing mad rolls it has a roll rate of 360 degrees per second at 400 km/h complete bullshit.

[Buzpilot]

I've got to get online and start barrel rolling like a madman! Seems I will be invincible then!

Only problem is your roll would be half the speed as AI has ;)

[machoo]

The 110's seem the worst. They do more tricks then what you'll see at a Red Bull air race!

[Blackdog_kt]

The rolls are weird, no question about that, but i don't really get how some people have trouble keeping up with the AI even with the tested FM discrepancies.

That being said, i fly with CEM and temp effects enabled so i have to use "by the book" power settings and invest some time to know what i'm doing when i exceed them, otherwise the engine will die.

Maybe this allows me to squeeze some extra performance out of the aircraft, i don't know, but i can certainly fire up the QMB and dogfight Hurricanes in a 110, run them down when they try to flee, force them to overshoot when i'm defensive, bounce them when they decide to RTB as their fuel and ammo gets low and generally stay alive, wear them out and get 2-4 kills on each such mission just fine. With the 109 i really have no problem at all and in a similar fashion i can score anywhere between 1-3 bomber kills on each intercept mission flying a Hurricane with the constant speed prop and get the two-stage prop Spits to accelerate and stay around 250mph during an entire dogfight. All that without even customized load-outs and convergence.

That being said i didn't just fire up a combat mission when i first got the sim, i usually try every aircraft in free flight first to see how much i can get away with, sort of a familiarization flight if you wish.

I don't know how much more or less realistic our FMs are compared to IL2, i'm not an expert, i'm just saying that if you take the time to learn how engines and props work you can certainly squeeze a lot of the seemingly missing performance out of your aircraft, no matter which one it is.

I have a feeling that part of the problem is the FMs needing some fine-tuning (the auto-mixture bug for example) but a big part is also that most of us don't know half of what we should be doing to really get top performance from our rides. There's so much complexity involved here that half of the times i thought something was a bug i ended up discovering it's actually a realistic feature after some googling and reading up on the issue.

I think that what this sim needs first and foremost is just two things: further performance optimizations and an amended documentation. If we have playable frame rates and know where we stand in regards to aircraft behavior on certain matters, it will be a much smoother ride from there on out and much easier to identify what needs fixing by the devs and what needs reading some documentation on our part.