Oil temperature and other things that might kill your engine.

[reflected]

Ok, so I'm quite aware how aeroplanes work, I read through the Spitfire pilot's notes a few times, and I amnage to fly it fairly well with CEM without temp effects. However, as soon as I enable temp effects I keep killing my engine.

By opening the radiator, I can keep the rad temp below the limit, but I can't seem to influence the oil temp, which is always between 90 and 100, 90 being the limit it eventually kills my engine.

What other things can kill it?
- too much boost for too long time (enabling boost cut-out isn't a problem if I throttle back, it's just a gate, isn't it?)
- overrev (3600 is the limit for 20 seconds, and I seldom go over 3,000 I usually keep it around 2850 in combat
- rad temp - easily cured by operating the radiator shutter
- oil temp - ?
- mixture - should be automatic so no problem. when I set it to weak I'm careful not to use more than +2 boost.
- what else?

Thanks

PS: It's only the Spit, I seem to manage the 109 quite well.

[41Sqn_Banks]

The oil temperature is heavily influenced by the engines RPM.

You can climb for 30min with 2600 RPM and full throttle (+6 1/4) and your oil temperature will stay around 90°. However always keep an eye on your RPM and oil temp and reduce RPM if it exeeds 90° (with a 2-pitch propeller you have to climb steeper or reduce boost to slow down which will reduce RPM) .

[ga_332]

Dos these also mean for the bf109 Oil temp below 90 and Coolent below 120? before damage the engine.......

[reflected]

been flying around at full switch.
I can fly the 109 OK, without killing the engine.
However, no matter how carefully I keep the revs, the boost and tthe temperatures within limitations, Merlin engines die on me eventually. something is broken, it can't be that much harder?

Rad: below 120
oil: around 91 all the time
revs: 2850 for combat and climb, otherwise 2600-2400
Boost: +4, max boost in combat for short periods

What? Why?

sometimes I lose power, sometimes I get oil on the screen...if real planes were such bitches the Luftwaffe wouldn't have had to try that hard to beat the RAF...

[Viper2000]

120ºC coolant temperature = engine failure.

The cruising temperature should be 95ºC.

3000 rpm is fine for combat.

At +6¼ psi boost you need at least 2080 rpm to avoid detonation. This is important with 2 position props. You can't just change to coarse pitch at full throttle, because you're likely to go below the minimum rpm for your boost and break something. Therefore with a 2 position prop I throttle back to 0 boost before switching to coarse pitch.

Oil temperature should be 90ºC for cruising and 95ºC max.

[kimosabi]

Dos these also mean for the bf109 Oil temp below 90 and Coolent below 120? before damage the engine.......

No, in the 109 you want oil around 80-90max and also water around 90max.

[reflected]

120ºC coolant temperature = engine failure.

The cruising temperature should be 95ºC.

3000 rpm is fine for combat.

At +6¼ psi boost you need at least 2080 rpm to avoid detonation. This is important with 2 position props. You can't just change to coarse pitch at full throttle, because you're likely to go below the minimum rpm for your boost and break something. Therefore with a 2 position prop I throttle back to 0 boost before switching to coarse pitch.

Oil temperature should be 90ºC for cruising and 95ºC max.

weird..I have the pilots notes, and it says 120C for 30 min, and even 135 C for 5 minutes. Good to know about the minimum rpm though, thanks! Oil temperatures are always around 95, nothing I can do...can you achieve combat performanced with these limitations? or do you just cruise and do some sightseeing? :confused:

[Viper2000]

weird..I have the pilots notes, and it says 120C for 30 min, and even 135 C for 5 minutes. Good to know about the minimum rpm though, thanks! Oil temperatures are always around 95, nothing I can do...can you achieve combat performanced with these limitations? or do you just cruise and do some sightseeing? :confused:

The figure of 135ºC for 5 minutes would apply for pure glycol cooling.

The 120ºC max is for 70% water, 30% glycol at 15 psi.

The Merlin III should be pure glycol. However, the pilot's notes which ship with the CE have limits appropriate to pressurised water/glyclol; since the page with the engine limits on it is dated January 1942, I suspect that what probably happened was that by then the engines had been modified to pressurised water/glycol cooling.

A complicating factor is that the Merlin III was the last Merlin to use pure glycol cooling; from the Merlin IV onwards all subsequent marks used pressurised water/glycol.

This means that the 120ºC limit is correct for the Spitfire II with Merlin XII, and would also be correct for the Hurricane II with Merlin XX. But AFAIK the Spitfire I and Hurricane I were both still using pure glycol cooling during the battle and should be subject to the limits you have posted.

NB - I am assuming that the 120ºC limit in the Pilot's Notes that ship with the CE is correct for 1942 and that the various mods for water cooling had been embodied by that time (the other option might be that it's a typographical error). I don't have documentary evidence as to when/if the Merlin III was converted to water cooling.

However, as far as the sim is concerned, the engine will break if you exceed 120ºC coolant temperature.

[reflected]

Viper: OK, thanks, I'll give it a try. Also, would using too much boost kill the engine on its own? Without exceeding the temperatures?

[Viper2000]

Viper: OK, thanks, I'll give it a try. Also, would using too much boost kill the engine on its own? Without exceeding the temperatures?

IRL yes, but not very quickly unless you really cane the poor thing.

Even using combat boost for too long could cause failure, but it's not really deterministic; working the engine harder increases the probability that something will break.

If you had access to 150 grade fuel in 1940 then a new Merlin III would be capable of +25 psi at sea level for a safe life of about 15 minutes; this was used with the Speed Spitfire, N17. The 150 grade fuel in question was very different from the late war production stuff; it was one of Rod Banks' special concoctions of alcohol and benzol etc. with vast quantities of TEL. Totally uneconomic, and suitable only for breaking records. But probably quite influential in the Merlin's development programme because it showed what the engine was capable of given sufficient supercharge; the development programme therefore basically consisted of improving the supercharger and strengthening the engine to survive high power running for an economically viable useful life.

In the sim you can't really use too much boost because Spitfire I seems to only give +6¼ psi with the cutout activated.

Spitfire II gives +8ish; some say that this is just because full scale deflection of the cockpit instrument is +8, but I don't think so because the no-cockpit view instruments go up to +12 but still show +8ish with the cutout activated.

You can break the engine with too much boost at low rpm, which is why it's important to throttle back before changing to coarse pitch.

You can also get "exhaust header" failures if you run at high boost & high rpm for very extended periods, which is fair enough, albeit perhaps somewhat over-done for a new engine, as failure usually took a few hours of abuse unless there was a bad weld or something.

[reflected]

Viper, I did some tests and it works! :)

If I keep the temperature below 120 the engine won't die. Unless the revs are too high, which makes the oil temp go boom. So I fight at 2850, and occasionally at 3000.

However, when I go high, above 4-5000m the oil temperature goes really high. The only was not to kill the engine is to reduce the revs to 2,300. Is that normal? Something is fishy up there, even the revs weren't constant. Perhaps the automatic mixture control is broken as some say?

[Shadylurker]

Something is definitely broken. I seriously doubt the pilot notes IRL are this close between life and death of a motor. Motors are not built out of glass and damage isn't on/off as it seems in the sim, I mean I have beat some motors IRL and yes failure is there, but thats after weeks/months of beating it (not 30 seconds as in COD). And my military background with modern aircraft tells me, yes 30min full power NEEDS to be followed but in all reality it could probably go well past that time as long as all gauges stay out of the red. Yes apples and oranges but I Seriously doubt they would run that close to the edge w/ no chance for over rev / boost / ect. maybe the actual "gasoline" model is wrong in the game. with the right octane anything is possible.

[zoopyzook]

Might be interesting reading for you, from the actual Spitfire IIA and IIB pilots notes regarding limitations on the Merlin XII engine...

[Plt Off JRB Meaker]

The British fighter engines are really fickle,it has taken me ages to get to grips with them.

I appreciate your plight,from all accounts after flying Spits and Hurricanes the Bf110 and Bf109 sound much more easier to get to grips with.

[Viper2000]

What date are your notes, zoopyzook?

[zoopyzook]

What date are your notes, zoopyzook?

2011 :) but an exact copy from 1942

you too can own a copy :cool:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Spitfire-II-Pilots-Notes-Supermarine/dp/0859790436/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1303842292&sr=8-2

or from the publisher direct

http://www.crecy.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=172