Bf 110C issues

[Kurfurst]

This thread is meant for bug reporting of Bf 110C series bugs for the developers.

I couldn't test them yet, but it appers that both C-4 and C-7 have the old MG FF 20mm cannons instead of the MG FF/M they had historically (C-2 had the MG FF). The FF/M could fire the special, high capacity Minengeschoss HE shells with thin shell walls, which carried considerably greater amount of explosive fillers than normal HE rounds (about 3 times the amount).

I did not have any time for performance testing, but if somebody is inclined to do so, here are the original Bf 110C-2 datasheet from April 1940, a courtresy of G.G. Hopp. Performance of C-2 should be identical to C-4 (only difference being the newer model of the same gun, which weighted the same).

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e133/Kurfurst/Bf%20110/Bf110C_1940_table_w_viaGGH.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e133/Kurfurst/Bf%20110/Bf110C_1940_graph_w_viaGGH.jpg

[robtek]

What i think that has to be fixed is the violent maneuveríng of the 110's above 500 km/h.
Atm it is not possible to execute a proper highspeed dive attack, impossible to target anything, except england :-D .

[JG53Frankyboy]

i guess, when the 109E-4 will be released (as Luthier announced) the 110C-4 and C-7 will get their historical correct MG-FF/M ...

[kubanskiloewe]

made a map (channel) without windinfluences took a 110c4 with half fuelload and full weapons.
I flew 2 time always with full throttle (1,32ata) and 2200-2500rp`m´s
Groundlevel over sea (ca100m) i reach 440km/h; it doesnt care if engine rews with 2200 or 2500....but slow acceleration

4500m the pressure drops and i reached near 400 IAS (ca 500km/h) and cooler flaps didnt made a difference to me if full open or near closed

than it takes long time to get 6000m with loosing much power and get only 250IAS
never reached 7000m.....

i noticed outside eahaustflames went more to red with height.... probably the auto mixture doesnt work well; this could also be the reason for power and speedloss.

climbrate is ok from 0-2000m (ca 2,5min with 200-220km/h IAS) above the climbrate sink constantly and in 4000m 7min where gone....always with full throttle 1,32ata

doing a 360° roll at 4000m in ca 4-5sec.

acceleration in a dive is poor or not better than 1mot´s ....think i still can follow in a spitII

the worst thing on those 110´s here is loosing control and speedmeter goes crazy above 500km/h IAS at any height....f.e. in 2000m ; think at 600km/h the rudder is gone

[W32Blaster]

Remote Compass (Führertochterkompass - no its not the compass of the Führers daughter lol) the indicator in shape of an Airplane is oszillating no matter what I do.

Since it is driven by a gyroscopic compass and only displaying the information of compensated compass (Mutterkompass) I guess its a bug.

Any opinions?

[Remo]

1. I had issue with all compasses (Gyro + Magnetic) stop (always display North) but mouse over does display a value ie the correct numeric value. Persisted over multiple missions , had to resart game to get compasses back.
2. The artificial horizon sometimes stop functioning.
3. Also the 500km/h (IAS) at any altitude is a big problem.

Regarding the performance.
I think the current model is quite forgiving on the side of the engine ( not by much but you can abuse the engine a bit more than the spec suggested you should )

Do you have the graph that maps the optimum climb speeds vs alt .
I'll try to match the climb times in your graph, but I think they are close upto about 4500 m , from there things start to go wrong.

Over 5000m the engines start to spit little dark smoke clouds and no longer run smooth (rev counter starts to oscillate between 2100-2400 rpm ), looks like the mixture is to rich. (no sound of backfire though)
On the oscillating rev counter , I'm not sure if that is quite correct , a real engine that oscillate rpms like that will probably break apart, and you have the heavy flywheel effect of the propeller, so even if rpms took a sharp drop , it should not be able to pick up 200-300 rpm in a fraction of a second.

[Viper2000]

Engine tooltips show manifold pressure in bar not ata, which is annoying little niggle; also, to be useful they need to display to 2 decimal places.

I noticed engine shudders passing about 2 km with full CEM; this seems to just be part of the generic high altitude mixture bug.

Translation of the datasheet would be useful, or at least a higher resolution scan; that font is pretty challenging!

It would also be useful know about VNE given the handling difficulties above 500 km/h IAS (which IMO is a nice simulation of snaking, though whether it should actually happen to the 110 at this speed is another question).

BTW, does anybody know where the oil temperature gauges are?

[Remo]

......
BTW, does anybody know where the oil temperature gauges are?

The gauges are on each engine. (there are three gauges on each engine , only bottom two are functional ) , oil temp gauge is one of the bottom gauges.

Seems like you don't need to open the oil coolers by much (around 30-50% will do). they don't get over 75 deg even with heavy engine abuse, with full open oil coolers oil temp drops to 60-63 deg in most flight conditions..

I even tried to keep the oil + water temp nice and high with higher alt to see if that might help with the power issues at 5000m+ , it did not.

[Viper2000]

Thanks Remo. I'm amazed you can even get to 5 km; I start getting engine trouble at rather lower altitudes.

[skouras]

what is the difference between 109-3 and 109-4:)

[Peril]

Performance of C-2 should be identical to C-4 (only difference being the newer model of the same gun, which weighted the same).

Just to add variety to the options and in reply to the above comment, which is likely correct.

I have the below in my collection of information on the 110, not saying this version should or shouldn't be included, just for interest on the topic. I also have some information on turn rates (in German graphs) which may be useful to someone. These also list 109E turn data so that could be helpful to those that need it.

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The DB 601N was an improved version of the DB 601 that with it's re-designed cylinder heads, increased manifold pressure and revolutions, using 'C-2' natural or 'C-3' synthetic 100 octane fuel obtained increased power output. Originally 1400 PS output was planned. The powerplant entered production in the end of 1939 and was used in the Bf 109E-4/N, E-7/N and Bf 110C fighters and destroyer, and the He 111 P and Do 215 bombers. The datasheet notes that the Bf 109F use another version of the DB 601N, with improved supercharger ('verbessertem Lader'). This latter version had higher rated altitude, otherwise it was similiar.
It should be noted that German datasheets are sometimes quite inconsistent about time limitations; this one qoute 1-min limitation, possibly carried over in error from the DB 601A's 1-min special power boost. Other documents of the DB 601N however give the limit as 5 minutes.


On the Generalluftzeugmeister meeting on 19 July 1940 at the it was noted that up to that date one Gruppe (Wing, each with 3 Staffeln, or Squadrons with 12 planes) of Bf 109 had re-equiped with DB 601N. 1



On the left :
The fuselage of Bf 109E-4/N, W.Nr. 1190, 'White 4', is being unloaded by Curtiss workers. The Emil belonged to 4. Staffel Staffel of JG 4, and was flown by Uffz. Horst Perez on, when it was shot down on the 30th September 1940 over East Dean during the Battle of Britain. Note the fuel triangle with the '100' label, pointo to 100 octane fuel and the DB 601N.




On the Generalluftzeugmeister meeting on the 22nd January 1941, the Generalstab pointed out the following figures
on the number of 'active' DB 601N installed, referring to reports from the units on 1st of January, thus giving us a good picture
on the number of Bf 109E-../N types in frontline serviceon the 1st of January : 2

in Bf 109s
Bf 109E-1 : 16 pcs, Bf 109E-3 : 1 pc, Bf 109E-4 : 54 pcs, Bf 109E-6 : 1 pc, Bf 109E-7 : 34 pcs, Bf 109E-8 : 2pcs. Bf 109F-1 : 5 pcs.

Total 112 Bf 109E with DB 601N present in service, plus 5 Bf 109F.

in Bf 110s
Bf 110C-1 : 4 pcs, Bf 110C-4 : 40 pcs, Bf 110C-5 : 12, Bf 110C-7 : 14 pcs, Bf 110D-0 : 18 pcs, Bf 110D-2 : 20 pcs, Bf 110D-3 : 8 pcs, BF 110E-1 : 176 pcs, Bf 110E-2 : 14 pcs.

Total : 306 engines, ie. 153 Bf 110s with DB 601N present in service.

in Misc. types
He 111P : 8 pcs, Do 215 : 68 pcs.

[Blackdog_kt]

2. The artificial horizon sometimes stop functioning.


If it happens during normal flight (for example, smoothly cruising from point A to B) it's a bug, but i haven't experienced it so far.

If it happens only after violent maneuvers it's not a bug, it happens with all the planes in the sim and it's due to the gyros driving the instruments tumbling. If you fly straight and level for 5 minutes or so it will recover.

[Kurfurst]

A bit of a summary on the 110C with DB 601N (ca. 20% increased output at all altitudes).

The story in short:

in total, some 4 Gruppen (equivalent of RAF Wings, with ca 12 Squadrons) of Bf 110C were powered by the more powerful DB 601N during the daylight phase of the Battle of Britain. This increased to six Gruppen later.

Evidently, these units were:

II./Z.G. 26,
III./Z.G. 26,
II./Z.G. 76,
Erpr.Gr. 210

This represented about half of the Bf 110 strenght in the Battle, so one can say the 110 just as typically had 601N, not the 601A we have during the Battle. Yet there's no 110C w. 601N modelled.


* Generalluftzeugmeister meeting on 19 July 1940
Notes 3 Gruppen of Bf 110, 1 Gruppe of 109 had been converted to DB 601N engines.

* Generalluftzeugmeister meeting on 19 October 1940
DB 601N is in short supply, therefore existing production is to be used in:
-all new production Bf 109F-1, F-2
-all new production Bf 110C produced by Mtt AG, in order to keep the strenght of the existing 4 Gruppen of DB 601N converted Bf 110 units up.

So evidently a fourth 110 Wing was converted in the meantime.

* Generalluftzeugmeister meeting on 29 October 1940

'four DB 601N conveted Bf 110 Gruppen (Wings), only one Bf 109'

* Generalluftzeugmeister meeting on 8 November 1940

In order to free up DB 601Ns for Bf 109s, the November/December production run of Bf 110s will receive DB 601A instead of 601N.

The following will receive DB 601N:

- final, closing series of Bf 109E (ie. E-7 - KF)
- replacement engines for III./Z.G. 26, Erpr.Gr. 210

Due to shortage of 601N engines, II./Z.G. 26, II./Z.G. 76 will receive only 601A replacemnts. The production of 601N in Janaury will be significantly higher, so 110s can be switched back to the 601N.

As of 1 January 1941 the following number of 'active' (ie. built into a frontline aircraft) 601N engines were reported by units (note: engine count! Each 110 has two engines of course!)

in Bf 109s
Bf 109E-1 : 16 pcs,
Bf 109E-3 : 1 pc,
Bf 109E-4 : 54 pcs,
Bf 109E-6 : 1 pc,
Bf 109E-7 : 34 pcs,
Bf 109E-8 : 2pcs.
Bf 109F-1 : 5 pcs.

Bf 110C-1: 4 Stück
Bf 110C-4: 40 Stück
Bf 110C-5: 12 Stück
Bf 110C-7: 14 Stück
Bf 110D-0: 18 Stück
Bf 110D-2: 20 Stück
Bf 110D-3: 8 Stück
Bf 110E-1: 176 Stück
Bf 110E-2: 14 Stück
total. 306 pieces

ie. 153 Bf 110s.

He 111P : 8 pcs,
Do 215 : 68 pcs

In total 6 Gruppen Bf 110 were reported to have been fitted with 601N.
No new 110-Gruppe is planned to have 601Ns until 1 April 1941.


See also http://www.yogysoft.de/pawel/zerstoerer/001.html , probably taken from Mankau-Petrick's Bf 110, 210, 410 book.

[Remo]

Thanks Remo. I'm amazed you can even get to 5 km; I start getting engine trouble at rather lower altitudes.

Got her up to 6700m with a lot of constant tweaking of prop pitch + throttle and lots of fuel burned. I'm sure I can break 7000m it will take well over 30minutes though..

If it happens during normal flight (for example, smoothly cruising from point A to B) it's a bug, but i haven't experienced it so far.

If it happens only after violent maneuvers it's not a bug, it happens with all the planes in the sim and it's due to the gyros driving the instruments tumbling. If you fly straight and level for 5 minutes or so it will recover.


Does a low G turn (banking approx 45deg ) count as violent maneuvers ?
Also I think I noticed this after the high speed flutter after 500km/h, I'll keep an eye out for this next time. Will also see if things settle down after 5min, (I'm pretty sure I flew much longer than that , but then I was not concentrating on that particular problem so it might have reset properly after 5min.. ), will keep an eye in this.

[Remo]

7000m do seems to be the limit, the problem being that from 6900m to 7000m the ata takes a sudden drop from 0.95 to 0.9 and goes lower as you go over 7000m (maxed her at around 7150) ata was around 0.85.
In essence I could not get her is a stable level flight at 7000m, without elevator input, and with more that 400L petrol she don't like it up there at all.

7000m max speed .. 210-230km/h (IAS)
6900m max speed at level flight , 260km/h (IAS).
6800m max speed at level flight , 290km/h (IAS).
(CEM on full)
(Speeds was with +- 250L petrol left in tank , it takes a long long time to get her up there, and I played around with different prob settings at 7000m for a long time to come to the conclusion that she wont stay up at 7000m without a fight )