Community FM Efford

[Hunin]

With the release of Kegety's SFS mod that includes a dump command to extract enpacked files we are now in the position to modify CloD.
Even better (or worse ): none of the game data is decrypted.
To make this crystal clear:

Anybody with notepad can now edit the whole range of vital components, including flight models.

I sure hope steam's anti-cheat routines are as good as or better than CRT2 was back in the old engine.

However there's also a tremendous chance here.
Looking at the teething problems the game has at the moment and the very involved and admirable way Luthier responds to community requests and criticism, I ask myself wether we could take all the creative energy and extensive resources a dedicated and caring community can muster and channel them into actively helping the developement process.

With the FM files openly accessible to everyone, why not try to steer the testing and constructive criticism towards actual changes in a community made beta efford.
We know that the developement team is under tremendous pressure at the moment.
Let's get all interested hands and get them dirty for the benefit of the sim.
A Spitfire Mk I with CSP has transformed from a request to a feasible possibility for example.
Puting it into the game would both satisfy the demand of the community and lifting the workload of a frankly guite minor task of the devs.
If it adheres to the high standards it may be incorporated officialy.

I'm well aware that the release of the mod tools was not wished for or done by Maddox Games.
Either way this is a forced revelation of their hard work and I understand if the thought of an involuntary public beta process comes close to feel insulting after so many years of development.
However the state of affairs does remind me of some early statements made by Oleg about a moddable game that is customizable by the end user with an in-house quality control and the possibility of officializing community content.

My point is simple.
Everybody and their mother can and will modify the game to their liking soon.
We might as well try to benefit from it.

PS
Hoping for some clarification from the officials here.
What's the stance on this latest episode of the CloD rollercoaster?

[robtek]

Yeah, just what the developer needs, a bunch of bloody amateurs fiddling with the code.
I am shure that your idea is well intended, but you know what they say: well intended is bad done.
I am strongly opposed to that, and if everybody can modify this program uncontrolled i see a very dark future.

[Viper2000]

With the release of Kegety's SFS mod that includes a dump command to extract enpacked files we are now in the position to modify CloD.
Even better (or worse ): none of the game data is decrypted.


Flight test work (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=20196) would be greatly assisted if the atmosphere profile could be published for the various maps so that we can try to find the closest approximation of standard day conditions for testing, and also so that we can can attempt to accurately correct results back to standard conditions.

(Of course, a 100% standard day map would really be wonderful, but I don't want to advocate illegal modification of the software)

I also hope that the anti-cheat protection is bullet-proof, because I really would hate to see this sim killed by cheats, especially at such an early stage in its development life...

[Hunin]

Flight test work (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=20196) would be greatly assisted if the atmosphere profile could be published for the various maps so that we can try to find the closest approximation of standard day conditions for testing, and also so that we can can attempt to accurately correct results back to standard conditions.

(Of course, a 100% standard day map would really be wonderful, but I don't want to advocate illegal modification of the software)

I also hope that the anti-cheat protection is bullet-proof, because I really would hate to see this sim killed by cheats, especially at such an early stage in its development life...

Had a quick look and only found the standard load.ini values that were allready used in the old Il-2.
It can be found in \$bob\maps\English_Channel_1940 if you want to have a look.
Here is the relevant passage:

[WORLDPOS]
CAMOUFLAGE SUMMER

YEAR 1940
MONTH 7
DAY 15
; position of London
LATITUDE 51.5
LONGITUDE 0

PRESSURE 745
TEMPERATURE 17

Great thread btw. - didn't see it before.

@robtek
As I mentioned twice the damage is allready done.
This is about reacting to the situation.

[robtek]

Ok, hunin, you're right, the damage is done.
Imho a very shortsighted help by kegetys and maybe a longtime damage.
I shure hope not and i also hope that MG has the capabilities to close those files again for good.
The only way to change anything should go through published SDK's in a controlled way.
Otherwise, i dont believe that there are bad apples around, i know it!

[Viper2000]

That's very interesting. I can see the temperature being 17ºC, but the Pressure figure is a bit of a mystery, since it seems that the sea level pressure is about 996 or 997 mb (found by taking a Spitfire down to sea level and changing the pressure setting to zero the altimeter).

I suppose that it could be 745 mm Hg; that would be about 993 mb. So I'm still a bit confused. Of course, this assumes g = 9.80665 which is the standard value for 45º latitude.

Converting up to g = 9.812 (which is the figure Wikipedia lists for London) isn't much help.

However, if we take g to be 10 instead of 9.80665 then 745 mm Hg converts to 101283 Pa, almost the standard sea level value of 101325 Pa. But this is probably coincidence, given the 996 mb reading...

[Sven]

On one side it is good that the community can access it, so there are no secrets. Modifying FMs by the community however is not good. At least it is no good in online gameplay. There is already a ton of information send to the developers regarding certain flaws in the FM/DM. And I suggest everybody to do so, but do make it constructive and make sure you back up your claims, we're aiming for historical accuracy after all.

In the best case we don't need any mod or mods, but there is also a limit to the devs capabilities in providing us with continuous support, they have more plans for the future than just the BoB I've read;)
It is too early to say we need mods for FM/DM, give it a month or 2.

I also hope that the anti-cheat protection is bullet-proof, because I really would hate to see this sim killed by cheats, especially at such an early stage in its development life...

That protection better be good, or it is IL2 all over again. :(

[Kurfürst]

Good idea. Pandora is out of the box, but she might help us to identify and FM problems easier. Saves a lot of time and guesswork..

The Devs are busy making the engine work anyway.

[Fragal]

Have to say i'm well and truly opposed to any sort of mods at the minute concerning FM's or aircraft, the games been out for less than a month the devs are still fixing and patching we don't even have a full planeset yet.
We don't even know whats coming in the future addons or aircraft wise - i say give the game a chance to get going before talking about mods i'm all for them eventually but blimey at least give COD the chance to get on it's feet before you even consider them it's too soon for mods :p

[6S.Manu]

Have to say i'm well and truly opposed to any sort of mods at the minute concerning FM's or aircraft, the games been out for less than a month the devs are still fixing and patching we don't even have a full planeset yet.

I agree with you about the game is still unfinished, but the bolded part is laughable: talkin about IL2 series, we had to wait 10 years to have a realistic Spitfire and an italian engineer to adjust some FMs to realistic performances (for US and LW, HSFX 5.0).

And here we are again with the old Emil and his 25 seconds...

Personally I think that Ilya and CO should leave the data management to the modders (CloD has born with MOD support, if it's really working) while they should focus only in the physical engine and the graphical engine. Think about the performance of the application, other people will think to add the content (something like rFactor)

[Jotaele]

I think 1c should have more time to tweack his game before peoples start to mod.That made users made used to new characteristiques and becomes us in betatesters.If game is modded so soon, a lto of work could never be apreciated for players.
Also, too much peoples messing around with the mod, could discourage the 1c team in improving the game.
I would encourage any modification that can help or guidge developers in his path.
Visual mod are always welcom.

[Bewolf]

I agree with you about the game is still unfinished, but the bolded part is laughable: talkin about IL2 series, we had to wait 10 years to have a realistic Spitfire and an italian engineer to adjust some FMs to realistic performances (for US and LW, HSFX 5.0).

And here we are again with the old Emil and his 25 seconds...

Personally I think that Ilya and CO should leave the data management to the modders (CloD has born with MOD support, if it's really working) while they should focus only in the physical engine and the graphical engine. Think about the performance of the application, other people will think to add the content (something like rFactor)

If this is done in cooperation with the Devs and those tweaks are released in a way like the Daedalus Team does for IL2, zero problem with that. In fact that could result in achievements of epic proportions.

If, however, the modders all work for themselves and only take those reports and documents for their airplane performance values, then this Sim is dead before it has even taken off.

And the worst case scenario would be individuals tweaking their own aircraft to their liking going into regular server ruining it for all others. How are you going to check that?

IMHO, the files in question should be protected ASAP, not matter if an unofficial development/mod team takes up the work or not.

Cheers

[Sven]

If this is done in cooperation with the Devs and those tweaks are released in a way like the Daedalus Team does for IL2, zero problem with that. In fact that could result in achievements of epic proportions.

If, however, the modders all work for themselves and only take those reports and documents for their airplane performance values, then this Sim is dead before it has even taken off.

And the worst case scenario would be individuals tweaking their own aircraft to their liking going into regular server ruining it for all others. How are you going to check that?

IMHO, the files in question should be protected ASAP, not matter if an unofficial development/mod team takes up the work or not.

Cheers

I do believe the files are locked for MP, which is good, but we don't know yet how securely locked it is, better keep an eye out for Tiger Moths flying over with the speed of sound!

[6S.Manu]

If this is done in cooperation with the Devs and those tweaks are released in a way like the Daedalus Team does for IL2, zero problem with that. In fact that could result in achievements of epic proportions.

If, however, the modders all work for themselves and only take those reports and documents for their airplane performance values, then this Sim is dead before it has even taken off.

And the worst case scenario would be individuals tweaking their own aircraft to their liking going into regular server ruining it for all others. How are you going to check that?

IMHO, the files in question should be protected ASAP, not matter if an unofficial development/mod team takes up the work or not.

Cheers

The good thing about MODs (not "modifications" but "modules") is that you and your server can run the package you want.

But to have modules (and not modifications) we need the SDK ASAP.
Who cares about the stock FMs, nobody is so stupid to change those and if he do he would not fly without being banned in a dozen of minutes.

Look at the HSFX 5.0 where if you want you can enable those different FMs. At the same time this package is used by so many serious virtual squads that FMs are not being changed to the taste of "one side" but every squad gives its feedbacks. And then all the squad agrees to fly with those FMs during the coop, df server of online campaign; these are guys who fly full difficulty missions.

Mods give you the choice to play the game you want and this is the direction that 1C guys have to take ASAP. Team Daidalos is good but remember what happened with the new advanced bomb fusing; dozens of people crying about it (too hard, not totally realistic ect)
And they still couldn't fix the 190s.

So hacking the code should be denied by 1C but at the same time they should provide the SDK so that people can have "really" fun... (I'll never fly again in a Emil with a turn time of 25secs)

If TODAY there are still buyers of IL2 1946 it's because of "illegal" modders.

[b101uk]

Well lets hope the next patch now encrypts files and if a file is found modified in any way steam forces its re-downloading in an encrypted state, as on-line play will be ruined without.

As for community “FM” modification, err no there are to many people who blindly believe in published figures and lack common sense.

[Bewolf]

The good thing about MODs (not "modifications" but "modules") is that you and your server can run the package you want.

But to have modules (and not modifications) we need the SDK ASAP.
Who cares about the stock FMs, nobody is so stupid to change those and if he do he would not fly without being banned in a dozen of minutes.

Look at the HSFX 5.0 where if you want you can enable those different FMs. At the same time this package is used by so many serious virtual squads that FMs are not being changed to the taste of "one side" but every squad gives its feedbacks. And then all the squad agrees to fly with those FMs during the coop, df server of online campaign; these are guys who fly full difficulty missions.

Mods give you the choice to play the game you want and this is the direction that 1C guys have to take ASAP. Team Daidalos is good but remember what happened with the new advanced bomb fusing; dozens of people crying about it (too hard, not totally realistic ect)
And they still couldn't fix the 190s.

So hacking the code should be denied by 1C but at the same time they should provide the SDK so that people can have "really" fun... (I'll never fly again in a Emil with a turn time of 25secs)

If TODAY there are still buyers of IL2 1946 it's because of "illegal" modders.

Do not get me wrong, I used UP and HSFX and considered them a huge achievement. But that was at a time when IL2 was at the end if it's lifetime and new input into the series was urgently required.

So while in principle I am all for modules, as you call them, I am just saying this does not achieve to much as long the individual is able to tweak his planes the way he wants without any restrictions. In that I am not worrying about the jet speed Swordfish, these guys will be banned really quick, I am more worried about subtle changes that give slight edges that could also be explained with good flying, and that at a time when the whole series is too young to have really established itself. I see massive problems coming to the series in this regard.

And I repeat, I am aware of yours and Hunin's efforts in IL2 and welcomed them much, so this is not aimed at you guys at all, it's more about a general worry. Getting some sort of official backing here would do lots to calm people worries, especially those that don't know your history.

[csThor]

Quite frankly the only thing that'll come out of that will be the same as in Il-2 - various groups of people flaming each other like prophets of various religious sects, all of which are absolutely convinced only they have the holy grail of FM/DM/whatever and all others are heretics. Cooperation with the developer yes, and a lot of that please. But getting "the community" to agree on anything? Well, I've got some property on Jupiter to sell to you. ;)

Thanks, I pass ...

[6S.Manu]

But that was at a time when IL2 was at the end if it's lifetime and new input into the series was urgently required.

I totally agree with you.

Edit: still we had to wait 10 year for corrected FMs.

@Thor: I want to choose my religion, I don't want "their". In this the way everybody is happy.

[41Sqn_Stormcrow]

Quite frankly the only thing that'll come out of that will be the same as in Il-2 - various groups of people flaming each other like prophets of various religious sects, all of which are absolutely convinced only they have the holy grail of FM/DM/whatever and all others are heretics. Cooperation with the developer yes, and a lot of that please. But getting "the community" to agree on anything? Well, I've got some property on Jupiter to sell to you. ;)

Thanks, I pass ...

I second that. Just look what mods have done to IL2. A splitted community with tons of servers and one cannot fly on most of them because one has not the right mod. Before mods one could jump into whatever server and have fun. And don't even talk about the cheat accusations that florished like pest plants. Mods are MP game killers.

I always had hoped that humans can learn from the past .... :?

[IvanK]

Doesn't STEAM and a Confs.ini entry of VAC=1 force the STEAM check system on ?

[*Buzzsaw*]

Salute

We all knew that CoD was going to be open to modding of both the aircraft/damage/graphics/maps models... BUT, that was supposed to have only after the tools to accomplish this were released, and those mods were only supposed to be potentially activated on non-secure servers.

It is really unfortunate that we have third parties already imposing their hacks on the game, when it is still not fully developed. If these hacks are useable on supposedly secure public servers, then it will be a disaster for the community. Even IL-2, after the mods were introduced, had a Check Runtime=2 file which made players conform their game version to that of the hosting server. If this hackers mods are useable on CoD servers, then my prediction is the community will dissolve very quickly.

I would urge the developers to do all they can to squash this development immediately, and to ensure the community can fly online with the secure knowledge the game will provide a level playing field for all participants.

[carguy_]

Interesting. I abandoned IL2 shortly after it got cracked. I`ve had no support in damning the mods. Never quite seen it perform in practice, but I couldn`t fly online when the integrity of the game got compromised.

Anybody know how it turned out for IL2 1946 from 2007 to 2011r? Was the community fractured or not? Any cheats online?

Anyways, I thought Steam covered that issue with COD...?

[t4trouble]

But il2 has very little cheats compared to most games,the vast majority would not cheat prefer to down people by your own skill and not by cheating.Age factor might have alot to do with this i think as the il2 community is rather mature i believe.

[6S.Manu]

Interesting. I abandoned IL2 shortly after it got cracked. I`ve had no support in damning the mods. Never quite seen it perform in practice, but I couldn`t fly online when the integrity of the game got compromised.

Anybody know how it turned out for IL2 1946 from 2007 to 2011r? Was the community fractured or not? Any cheats online?

Anyways, I thought Steam covered that issue with COD...?

The community has always been divided since the release of the game because of the way the virtual pilots want to play IL2. There are the lovers of simulation, the sunday pilots and so on.

So there are different IL2 communities (and there will be regardin CloD).

If the one where you fly is a serious one then there is no fear of cheating since it's difficult to find a guy having fun in this way. These guys only go to fly in servers with pilots of their kind. They don't cheat, the enemy doesn't cheat.

An example is the SEOW community: the squadrons who fly these type of campaign know each other... if there is a cheater it will be the squadron itself who'll ban him.

Infact it's almost a closed campaign and you have to be invited to fly. The average age of the pilots is very high, probably 30-35 years and the respect between the pilots is the highest.

If instead you are used to fly alone in a server full of free pilots (I mean they fly alone, in no squadron) then there is more chances to find a cheater.

It's all to you. Have you ever thought to enter in a squadron?

PS: avoiding modded IL2 you are really losing a wonderful aspect of IL2. A beautiful (graphics and sounds), realistic (you know what I mean, it's still a videogame), historic simulator.

[41Sqn_Stormcrow]

What you say is just a very theoretical and optimistic wishful thinking.

As a high ranked politician once said: it is the one who doesn't play by the rules who will always win.

If a cheat is possible there's always one who will do it even if the majority doesn't. And one cheater is enough to ruin a flight evening and experience (and not wishful thinking) teaches us that accusations of cheating are florishing when mods (or to be precise "hacks" because that's what it is) exists which is even worse.

Experience (and not wishful thinking) teaches us that mods will lead to a split server offer and thus reducing the choice of scenarios you and I can fly on.
During my IL2 time there have been a handful of servers that weren't empty and had full real settings. 90% of all servers on hyperlobby were not full real, 75% of the remaining full real servers were always empty. This left about perhaps 5 servers that were full real and with decent player numbers to have fun. And this was during the best times of IL2 when there had been over 1000 IL2 players online on Hyperlobby. Then came the mods and modfree servers with full real and with decent player numbers dropped considerably. And each of the remaining had different mods. I dropped out of playing IL2 and so did a lot of other players because when I checked a couple of months later on HL only half of initial player numbers were found on HL.

After now one year of IL2 absence I don't know where player number is right now but I guess that it is far lower now.

Fact is the community is shrinking. And you want to divide this community further just in order to have the Spit or the 109 you dream of. Have fun with it there will be very few ppl with whom you then can fly.

[Peril]

Yes no one will ever agree on which performance test to base a build, but if this can be used to correct obvious errors it has to be a good thing.

I have been turned off IL2 in the past mainly because of the poor implementation of FM accuracy, it's not hard to pick holes but some holes were pretty big to be honest. I have a huge amount of data here that has already been sifted, picked, typos found (yes core data has errors) tested in Targetware, complained about and finally implemented. People like me with experience and the data to help do exists just in the past it's all been taboo.

As the FM Guru for Target Rabaul, this has my interest as a viable option ONCE the bugs are sorted. The only thing I seek is the ability to help if I can and a PACIFIC theatre to play in ;)

The latter is my passion ;)















With the release of Kegety's SFS mod that includes a dump command to extract enpacked files we are now in the position to modify CloD.
Even better (or worse ): none of the game data is decrypted.
To make this crystal clear:

Anybody with notepad can now edit the whole range of vital components, including flight models.

I sure hope steam's anti-cheat routines are as good as or better than CRT2 was back in the old engine.

However there's also a tremendous chance here.
Looking at the teething problems the game has at the moment and the very involved and admirable way Luthier responds to community requests and criticism, I ask myself wether we could take all the creative energy and extensive resources a dedicated and caring community can muster and channel them into actively helping the developement process.

With the FM files openly accessible to everyone, why not try to steer the testing and constructive criticism towards actual changes in a community made beta efford.
We know that the developement team is under tremendous pressure at the moment.
Let's get all interested hands and get them dirty for the benefit of the sim.
A Spitfire Mk I with CSP has transformed from a request to a feasible possibility for example.
Puting it into the game would both satisfy the demand of the community and lifting the workload of a frankly guite minor task of the devs.
If it adheres to the high standards it may be incorporated officialy.

I'm well aware that the release of the mod tools was not wished for or done by Maddox Games.
Either way this is a forced revelation of their hard work and I understand if the thought of an involuntary public beta process comes close to feel insulting after so many years of development.
However the state of affairs does remind me of some early statements made by Oleg about a moddable game that is customizable by the end user with an in-house quality control and the possibility of officializing community content.

My point is simple.
Everybody and their mother can and will modify the game to their liking soon.
We might as well try to benefit from it.

PS
Hoping for some clarification from the officials here.
What's the stance on this latest episode of the CloD rollercoaster?

[41Sqn_Stormcrow]

Still it is better to discuss it here and hope that the devs will make a good decision for the sake of historical accuracy than to have these mod sects that destroy the community which is already quite limited.

[fruitbat]

The community has always been divided since the release of the game because of the way the virtual pilots want to play IL2. There are the lovers of simulation, the sunday pilots and so on.

So there are different IL2 communities (and there will be regardin CloD).

If the one where you fly is a serious one then there is no fear of cheating since it's difficult to find a guy having fun in this way. These guys only go to fly in servers with pilots of their kind. They don't cheat, the enemy doesn't cheat.

An example is the SEOW community: the squadrons who fly these type of campaign know each other... if there is a cheater it will be the squadron itself who'll ban him.

Infact it's almost a closed campaign and you have to be invited to fly. The average age of the pilots is very high, probably 30-35 years and the respect between the pilots is the highest.

If instead you are used to fly alone in a server full of free pilots (I mean they fly alone, in no squadron) then there is more chances to find a cheater.

It's all to you. Have you ever thought to enter in a squadron?

PS: avoiding modded IL2 you are really losing a wonderful aspect of IL2. A beautiful (graphics and sounds), realistic (you know what I mean, it's still a videogame), historic simulator.


I am in 100% agreement with 6S.Manu.

Those who left il2 when modding appeared are the guys that lost out most in some respects.

For sure, when it first happened online was a mess, and everything was unsure, but what has transpired since has been a revolution imo.

I fly online with a squad i belong too 95% of the time, and the the idea that someone would cheat is just a non entity.

I have never personally EVER seen someone cheating, just doesn't happen in my circle, and i fly with some people that most of you that frequent the variety of il2 forums would know by name.

Thanks to Manu, i now have the chance to participate on a fantastic online SEOW, simply because he flew against/with another member of my squad, and they respect each other.

Il2, and flightsims in general are not like most other games, they're to hard or complex for most casual gamers particularly those who are younger, to play on servers that are on harder settings you have to immerse yourself with knowledge and it just doesn't attract the cheats that all the naysayers heralded.

Without doubt, the modding of il2 resulted in a great many players from playing online anymore.

Unfortunately, on nothing more than there own preconceived fears, as opposed to actual reality, more fool them.

Il2 1946 has never been as good as what it is now, with HSFX5, and the new UP coming out.

While Clod is all potential, these deliver.

I want Clod to be a success, and am fairly sure it will be, but at the moment, in its currant state, its not fit for purpose, there just to many fundamental bugs.

Planes can't even fly at the heights most of the Bob took place, because something is fucked with the mixture control.

I will just keep flying with my squad, on HSFX or UP, until Clod becomes anywhere near as good, and yet i think it will massively surpass it oneday, but its got a hell of a way to go yet.

my two cents.

[csThor]

Amusing to see the pink-tinted glasses some of you're wearing WRT the mods. To me all they managed was to fracture the community even more, apart from providing a stage for those people who strive for some internet fame and virtual shoulder clapping, and introduce the almost-religious flamefests and the mutual accusations of FM-heresy. As such they followed the trend I've seen in previous sims - modding is to the larger degree not about enhancing the gameplay value but about receiving internet adulation. Thanks, I pass ...

[41Sqn_Stormcrow]

Amusing to see the pink-tinted glasses some of you're wearing WRT the mods. To me all they managed was to fracture the community even more, apart from providing a stage for those people who strive for some internet fame and virtual shoulder clapping, and introduce the almost-religious flamefests and the mutual accusations of FM-heresy. As such they followed the trend I've seen in previous sims - modding is to the larger degree not about enhancing the gameplay value but about receiving internet adulation. Thanks, I pass ...
+1

[6S.Manu]

@ fruitbat
Hi mate, the "Big Week" campaign will start when the new SEOW release is available. There is no certain date on that, but must be soon.
It will be flown at 21:30 CET. Day of week must still be chosen, might be Tuesday or Thursday; maybe we can have more than a mission a week (if number of players exceeds number of available slots, that should be 70), in this case we might fly on Sunday too.

The dedicated bomber pilots of every virtual squads will fly in the Red side.

@ Thor/Stormcrow
I really don't understand the problem about dividing the community. So it seems a bad thing also to have different difficulty settings because it fractures the community.

I'll tell you the last time me and some of my squadmates have fled in a famous public server (the one on the PTO) we did only a sortie: during that flight we saw people stalling on the ground, people ramming each other and a guy flamed by the gunner of a Val (!!!)

Sorry but I have not fun to fly in that way. Why should I enjoy to enter in a furball at 50m? This is supposed to be a WW2 simulator and I like to fly with guys using the right way to fly warbirds (above all they follow the first rule: "watch for your virtual life").

The stock was lacking many things until the game was hacked. Only then IL2 did a great jump ahead thanks to modders and TD.

Realistic bombing (not 100% realistic, but not 10% like it was before), Fw190s with the right gunsight (both the position and the Revi model in the early ones), 6DoF (!!!!), new sounds (I can't wait for new CloD's one) and one of the more important for me, the absence of the "engine radar" (I asked the Dev team about this feature in Clod something like a dozen of times but I've never received a answer).

Sure there are planes made by modders that are jokes (great models but xwing FMs) but there are great one too; some of my teammates are flying also in the FTV and they are created from paper the italian PAN mb339, with ultra realistic flight characteristics... they are developing it since more than a year with the assistance of guys working inside the real PAN).
They have every day a new admission request from guys who DON'T fly IL2 and don't care about WW2 but they buy the game only to fly with the PAN.

Anyway if in this board sometimes I act like a promoter it's because I know there are guys out there who would like to fly the way I do but they don't know where they can fly (if they are like me they look only at the 5% of the HL servers). Some teammates of mine have gone away years ago but they are returning.

So it's not like you think: there is still a big community, only this is "out" from HL.
They manage coops or online campaigns but don't come here to promote this or in the HL chat.

To finish this argument (sorry admin, thank to your patience) I've never ever found a cheater on this game. Your is only a phobia: I repeat that you are losing a great thing. Do yourself a favor: try HSFX or UP at least one time, have an offline fly and give me your feedbacks.

BTW: the majority of the pilots in this community have bought CloD... they have faith in Oleg and Ilya (but not a blatanty religious one as some guys here...) and will continue to support them IF they give them the tools to fly the game in the way all agree to do.

This is my last one.

[csThor]

It's a question of philosophy. I do not credit "the community" with enough maturity to be given any tool to modify the core engine or something as vital as FM/DM simply for the fact that too many people think they're god's gift to the flight simmers. I simply don't want to see that certain people are given power to influence anything, not when I consider them excessively biased WRT certain issues.

I very much like a level playground ... which is also why I am all for 3rd Party Development as long as it is done in conjunction with the developer. Anything else is in my opinion simply a way for some to strive for internet fame, regardless of the cost to the community as a whole.

[Tiger27]

Amusing to see the pink-tinted glasses some of you're wearing WRT the mods. To me all they managed was to fracture the community even more, apart from providing a stage for those people who strive for some internet fame and virtual shoulder clapping, and introduce the almost-religious flamefests and the mutual accusations of FM-heresy. As such they followed the trend I've seen in previous sims - modding is to the larger degree not about enhancing the gameplay value but about receiving internet adulation. Thanks, I pass ...


Have to agree, post mods every time I thought I would jump back into IL2 I would find i had the wrong version of this or that mod, gave up in the end.

Of course this is not the same thing as what the Daidalos team have done, those patches/updates are the best way to do it, imo.

[DC338]

Mods online will get you banned at least from what luthier has stated.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=21362

[TomcatViP]

It's a question of philosophy. I do not credit "the community" with enough maturity to be given any tool to modify the core engine or something as vital as FM/DM simply for the fact that too many people think they're god's gift to the flight simmers. I simply don't want to see that certain people are given power to influence anything, not when I consider them excessively biased WRT certain issues.

I very much like a level playground ... which is also why I am all for 3rd Party Development as long as it is done in conjunction with the developer. Anything else is in my opinion simply a way for some to strive for internet fame, regardless of the cost to the community as a whole.

I totally agree with you. And I am shoulder clapping you heavily :eek:

Sadly Il2's Mod experience as shown that today devs hve now to come out in days light and fight to protect their baby. What a waste of time induced by those who claims them self as disinterested helper/savers...

[Sternjaeger II]

I completely agree with csThor.

The main issue here is where reality stands. FM discussions are a very very difficult field, simply because sometimes you have people shouting at each other or throwing charts of dubious nature, and they probably don't even fly with the same controls' sensitivity.

I don't mean to be an elitist, but you shouldn't even get close to talk on what a flight model should be like if you never put your arse on a plane and piloted it, and even in that case there are so many things to keep into account (limitations of the sim, unrealistic behaviour of AI etc..)

As things are now I still think that the AI is way too jolly in its manouvres and reactions: the reality is that dogfights a la WW1 were not standard, in many cases it was all sorted in a single BnZ and pilots never knew what bounced them.. what we see here instead is the Red Arrows on Red Bulls making the craziest evasive manouvres or turning their planes into Shuttles and legging it..

But back to the original topic, no, I don't think "the community" has the required skills or experience to give an 100% reliable feedback on "what things should be like".

[Eklund89]

OT: I am really interested in these more serious online wars. I am a serious flyer and im interested to join some european "team"/clan/whatever. PM me for another serious player.

[6S.Manu]

I don't mean to be an elitist, but you shouldn't even get close to talk on what a flight model should be like if you never put your arse on a plane and piloted it, and even in that case there are so many things to keep into account (limitations of the sim, unrealistic behaviour of AI etc..)

Neither if the guy who changes the FM is an aeronautical engineer, working with professional software and testing all the planes by this software? Many IL2 planes are really close to the real performances according to software simulation + historical data. Other planes are very different according both. Strange isn't it?

I'm more inclined to have faith in a professional software output than a sim developer opinion (and we know how he's easily influenced by some customer's opinions).

@Eklund89: check PM

[Sternjaeger II]

Neither if the guy who changes the FM is an aeronautical engineer, working with professional software and testing all the planes by this software? Many IL2 planes are really close to the real performances according to software simulation + historical data. Other planes are very different according both. Strange isn't it?

I'm more inclined to have faith in a professional software output than a sim developer opinion (and we know how he's easily influenced by some customer's opinions).

@Eklund89: check PM

It's a very delicate field Manu, you need a lot of empirical data in order to achieve a reliable FM,and sometimes we simply don't have this information.
Even the use of data measured nowadays on warbirds can't be completely accurate, because the plane loadouts and setups are different than what they used to be back in the days. I can tell you what a modern P-51D flight envelope is like, but there will surely be some discrepancies with the data recorded in the 40s.

I think the best way around this is developing a simulator that works the other way around, where physics are accurate and the sim does its calculations on airfoils, hp output, weight and other parametres.. but I'm afraid we will have to wait several years for something like that being available on a home pc..

Cloud computing might be the future of simulations, where one supercomputer does all the calculations and we just connect via terminals, but this is another story.

I think that it's a bit premature to do any speculations for now, let's give the guys at Maddox at least 6 months and then we might think of an effective think tank, but until then I wouldn't put the horse before the cart and limit feedback to bug reports.

[TomcatViP]

Neither if the guy who changes the FM is an aeronautical engineer, working with professional software and testing all the planes by this software? Many IL2 planes are really close to the real performances according to software simulation + historical data. Other planes are very different according both. Strange isn't it?

I'm more inclined to have faith in a professional software output than a sim developer opinion (and we know how he's easily influenced by some customer's opinions).

@Eklund89: check PM

This is summarized in the now famous Oleg&Il2 equation :
if CNbr->0 then DeltaFM->0
wehre CNbr stand for the number of potential customer
DeltaFM : the average difference with the real expected value

Not to mention the asymptotic convergence

Anyway we should be really satisfied of what we've just got here with CoD and helps dev team not to be over influenced by baized comments


Hummm ... Prof Sim Software you said :rolleyes:

[6S.Manu]

It's a very delicate field Manu, you need a lot of empirical data in order to achieve a reliable FM,and sometimes we simply don't have this information.
Even the use of data measured nowadays on warbirds can't be completely accurate, because the plane loadouts and setups are different than what they used to be back in the days. I can tell you what a modern P-51D flight envelope is like, but there will surely be some discrepancies with the data recorded in the 40s.

I think the best way around this is developing a simulator that works the other way around, where physics are accurate and the sim does its calculations on airfoils, hp output, weight and other parametres.. but I'm afraid we will have to wait several years for something like that being available on a home pc..

Cloud computing might be the future of simulations, where one supercomputer does all the calculations and we just connect via terminals, but this is another story.


I'm the first to say that historical data are usually ambiguous because we have variables like loadout, power output, airplane's condition, test pilot's skill and of course environment.

And more the majority of guys who fled that planes in that days didn't know the limits of their airplane since they were scared to try things that are normal for us virtual pilots (immortals). Listening to our grandfathers we have bold statement on warbirds' performance that can't be trusted since it's physically impossible.
Because of this I think that the only way to have real performance is by these softwares: probably not 100% accurate but physical science don't lie.


I think that it's a bit premature to do any speculations for now, let's give the guys at Maddox at least 6 months and then we might think of an effective think tank, but until then I wouldn't put the horse before the cart and limit feedback to bug reports.
Of course, my hands are tied. I test the game 20 minutes after every patch and I've to say that I'm really happy with the progress. Not joking. The planes' performance are not a priority by now. Nor mine nor should be of the developers

@TomcatViP: not "Prof Sim Software" but "Professional Aeronautical Software". One of the software used to design and test a plane on the paper before you start to build it.

[TomcatViP]

LoL I did copy tht.

No shame to say the word SIM : Simulation where created by scientist and mathematicians and still hve both a prof bckgrd and some scientific meanings :) I will even say that nowadays sim is the first layer of industrial reality :grin:

Whaaaaooo shld memorized this one for my next product review unless I'm actually quoting one of my ex :evil::evil:;)

[Sternjaeger II]

I'm the first to say that historical data are usually ambiguous because we have variables like loadout, power output, airplane's condition, test pilot's skill and of course environment.

And more the majority of guys who fled that planes in that days didn't know the limits of their airplane since they were scared to try things that are normal for us virtual pilots (immortals). Listening to our grandfathers we have bold statement on warbirds' performance that can't be trusted since it's physically impossible.
Because of this I think that the only way to have real performance is by these softwares: probably not 100% accurate but physical science don't lie.

what kinda parameters you would work on then? I'm intrigued by it.


Of course, my hands are tied. I test the game 20 minutes after every patch and I've to say that I'm really happy with the progress. Not joking. The planes' performance are not a priority by now. Nor mine nor should be of the developers


yeah let's give em some time, it's gonna be great Im sure :-)
I personally can't wait for the Mediterranean expansion!

[6S.Manu]

what kinda parameters you would work on then? I'm intrigued by it.

I'm not an engineer but I read the guys writing about calculating propeller efficency by software. So it's like working on the designs.

For the inside components' performance instead we still need historical data (engine, radiators ect are different things).

So we should complain about Overheat times, Guns' efficency ect, but not about things like max speed, climbing rate, acceleration ect.