Fiat G.50 performance...

[Rickusty]

Hi everybody.
As already stated in another thread, I tried to make some tests with the Fiat G.50 modeled in our new great sim.
Since I bought the game on March 31st, I've been trying to test all those gorgeous machines that we are now able to fly in CoD.

The Fiat G.50 especially seems really way off in regards to performance, compared to real-life tests and flight characteristics .

There are some issues that are somehow quite weird.

1 - Max engine power (WEP) seems to have been forgotten
The engine seems to run at really different values compared to the originale engine.
I have the original "instructions" for the engine in question: the Fiat A.74 RC 38 (from the Ministry of Aeronautics - 31 July of 1938).

Now... On the first pages of this huge document, there are the "general characteristics" of the engine: I will write them down here.

Normal Height of operation ..... m 3800
Normal Power at Normal Height ..... hp 840
RPM ..... rds/min 2400
Manifold pressure ..... mmHg 790

Take-off
Rpm ... rds/min 2520
Manifold pressure ... mmHq 890
Power ... hp 870

Fast Cruise mode
Rpm ... rds/min 2400
Manifold pressure ... mmHg 700
Height ... meters 5000
Power ... Hp 750

Level flight at maximum speed (for a few minutes)
Rpm ... rds/min 2520
Manifold pressure ... mmHg 790
Height ... meters 4300
Power ... hp 840

Emergency conditions (that is... WEP.) - Only for a few minutes
Rpm ... rds/min 2520
Manifold pressure ... mmHg 890
Height ... meters 3000
Power ... hp 960


--------------------------

Now,when flying the G.50 in Cliffs od Dover one can see that :

1 - There is no "Emergency condition" settings for the throttle. (no WEP).
2 - Standard maximum throttle settings (at 4000 meters) in the game are:
- Max Manifold pressure is 700 mmHg
- Max RPM is 2300 rds/min

It looks as the max throttle settings is set to the "Fast Cruise mode", considering the Rpm (roughly the same) and the Manifold pressure (the same).
If that is the case, we're missing about 200 hp.

In-game characteristics are:
- Max level speed at sea level is about 350 km/h (IRL it could reach about 400 km/h)
- It has an average rate of climb of 6 meters/sec (!). IRL it was about 16 meters/sec.

The rate of climb is astonishing, especially considering that the rate of climb wasn't really too bad...
The fighter just doesn't climb.
Try to set a small battle against some Blenheims I and you'll discover that they can easily outclimb you.

Then there is another additional "big" problem.
Weight.

If you go into the "Plane" settings, you can see that a normal G.50, at 100% fuel, with its standard pair of HMG is overweight by 140 Kgs.

The maximum take-off weight is listed as: 2350 kg
The actual normal weight, fully loaded is: 2490kg

Cheers

[fruitbat]

since it never fought in the BoB, and will never appear in any of my missions i care less about this one!

but if its wrong, it does need to be addressed.

mainly for the med!

[madrebel]

i'd like to see that engine manual if you have it handy. This is the same engine in the mc.200 and re.2000 yes?

[madrebel]

since it never fought in the BoB, and will never appear in any of my missions i care less about this one!

but if its wrong, it does need to be addressed.

mainly for the med!

italy committed:

13 stormo 38 BR-20s

43 stormo 27 BR-20s

18 gruppo 50 CR.42s

20 gruppo 48 G.50s

those all saw action in the BoB. they weren't exactly effective but they were in fact there and did in fact fly combat sorties, 883 to be exact.

[fruitbat]

i know the other Italian planes were there, but have never seen anything about the g50 in BoB myself. plenty of ref to the other 3 planes though.

happy to be proved wrong would like to know the source.

[madrebel]

http://comandosupremo.com/britain.html

Source: Italian Aces of World War 2 (Osprey Aircraft of the Aces No 34)

[Rickusty]

Hi Madrebel,
it's the same engine as in the Macchi C.200 "Saetta".
The Re.2000 had the Piaggio P.XI.

The manual is 215 pages, and 21 rather big cut-out schemes, power-band diagrams etc...
A rather thick volume. PM me for more info.

The Fiat G.50 was in fact in Belgium, but in practice a true engagement against British planes never happened. They really had a short range so...

The CR 42 fought as escort for the BR-20s, given their longer range and saw more combat.

[JG53Frankyboy]

i know the other Italian planes were there, but have never seen anything about the g50 in BoB myself. plenty of ref to the other 3 planes though.

happy to be proved wrong would like to know the source.

http://www.dalnet.se/~surfcity/falco_bob.htm

[DC338]

Pity there is Belgian airfields in the game. Why model the planes if they have nowhere historical to operate from? Not a huge oversight, though it is odd. Why model italian aircraft that flew a total of 883 sorties, yet leave out the Do-17 and the E-4 it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me from a BoB sense, in a med campaign for the future I guess it does.

[fruitbat]

thanks for the links madrebel and franyboy, interesting read.

wow, only 3 of the g50's were equipped with radios:shock:

and the first operation of the g50 was on the last 'official' day of the BoB ( not that the pilots seemed to noticed from all there various accounts that i've read, lol).

but it was defiantly there!

[madrebel]

Pity there is Belgian airfields in the game. Why model the planes if they have nowhere historical to operate from? Not a huge oversight, though it is odd. Why model italian aircraft that flew a total of 883 sorties, yet leave out the Do-17 and the E-4 it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me from a BoB sense, in a med campaign for the future I guess it does.

because it is cool? idk the do17 was a much larger contributor than the ju88 however is anyone going to argue which is a better/cooler plane?

the mind boggles on the E4 as well i don't quite understand that one either but w.e just more stuff for modders to include.

[fruitbat]

not to mention the E1, which certainly through june july and aug was the most common 109 in the air.


Hooton in Eagle in Flames gives the percentage losses of 109s by subtype:

July
E1 - 44%
E3 - 30%
E4 - 20%

August
E1 - 40%
E3 - 8%
E4 - 52%

September
E1 - 38%
E3 - 1%
E4 - 61%

October
E1 - 36%
E3 - 2%
E4 - 62%

and from Kurfust, over at ubi a while ago,

"I have some actual numbers. On 31 August 1940, fighter units (excluding JG 77) reported 375 E-1s, 125 E-3s, 339 E-4s and 32 E-7s on strength, indicating that most of the E-3s had been already converted to E-4 standard. JG 77 had around 100-125 aircraft with it, but for the rest of the units, its 75% cannon E-3/4/7, the rest are all MG E-1s. The E-1 and E-3 were produced parallel and in about equal numbers from the end of 1938, but by mid-1940, the production of the E-1 stopped, replaced by the E-4 and then the E-7."

and

In Ulrich Steinhilper's book 'Spitfire on My Tail', he relates quite clearly that they, JG52 didn't get there first cannon armed 109's until mid september , and then only 2, which were hand me downs from another unit. Rest of the unit bar these 2 planes was still in E1's.

[JG52Uther]

Hush with the E1's for JG52 Fruitbat! ;)

Actually,Luthier has already mentioned the E1 and E4,but they are sorting out the key problems first.
Personally I would LOVE a flyable Do17,its one of my favourite planes.

[fruitbat]

Hush with the E1's for JG52 Fruitbat! ;)



:grin:

you can always pretend to be Ulrich.

(mid way through september of course!)

[Rickusty]

shameless bump... :-P

[Babi]

shameless bump... :-P

can't really comment on the accuracy of the FM since i don't have real life data, but the plane sure feels very underpowered, with an extremely low power/weight ratio.. the climb is quite embarassing.

It shouldn't be top priority, but i think the devs should look into it, as it seems very suspicious, at least compared to the same plane in il-2 1946.

Being italian, i hope they can fix this issue and some others (italian pilot uniform, and speech pack above all) before the med expansion :grin:

Now to prove that i'm not a spaghetti whiner, i will also point out that the majority of the planes didnt had a radio and this should be reflected ingame, and if i'm not mistaken the g.50 should suffer from negative Gs like the spit or hurricane

[Mokkeri]

Finnish test pilots also noticed that fm is wrong, compared to factory manuals. Best test flight speed at SL was about 375km/h

[Rickusty]

That's true Babi. I too "complained" about the Italian fighters using radio comms. in another thread yesterday.
All radio comms in the It. fighters should be eliminated IMO.
It would be cool though to have pilot gestures in 3d animations :o

Mokkeri, yes, there were some differences in Italy too between the "real" operational characteristics and the "factory" (it's always FIAT damn it...) ones. It's hard to tell which one was right, in which condition the tests were carried on, the general conditions of that fighter in that moment, ite engine etc etc
But, even though we should consider the Finnish tests , we're still 35 km/h slower in the game.

But the problem is another one: it really looks like the FIAT A.74 engine isn't delivering its full power in the game. As I wrote in this thread, some of the instruments show different values comprared to what it "should be".
And the WEP mode isn't available.

The Fiat G.50 was certainly not a good machine. At the Italian fighter tender of 1938, it lost against the competing Macchi C.200.
The smart Italian RA HQ obviously decided instead to produce it nonetheless :confused:
I still have to read of ONE single Italian pilot who actually liked this aircraft. It seems almost everybody hated it or didn't consider it a good fighter plane.
I have an account written by a British wartime pilot who flew both a captured Macchi C.200 and a Fiat G.50, and it's unbelievable to read that the C.200 was one of the best plane he ever flew in all his lifetime, while he commented that the G.50 just wasn't "nothing special".

Yeah it was an ugly bird and didn't perform too well, but IMO something is wrong with its FM in our sim.


Cheers
Rick

[TomcatViP]

*Bump*

I try to fly the G50 online and it's really a poor performer. Now I know why the Moth had a Tiger in her name. For sure the 50 will fear the bit :rolleyes:

Seriously is that a Fiat engine or a Vespa ?

On the good point, the Fiat is delightful to fly if you like pushing buttons, rods, managing the trims (functional ! :eek:) ... and have a cte look at all those gauges (seems it lacks a valid indication of hydro pressure).

Frankly I wld like to see it more in the game. For those that likes the turn&burn at low alt, it cld be the perfect mount on the blue side.

I hope the devs wld have some spare resources to correct her (eng power mainly - my guess)

~S!

PS: if you have more success than me pls do share !

[41Sqn_Stormcrow]

I support this as I do support an overhaul of the performance of all planes except the SpitIIa that is apparently the only plane that gets historic performance.

[Kodoss]

It's a FIAT engine!

Italian Pilots said of the A.80 that it had Mule-Power instead of Horse-Power.
The A.80 had 1000hp at 2100rpm at 4.100m whereas the A.74 only had 840hp at 2400rpm at 3800m.
Maybe luthiers team wanted to reproduce this "mule-power".:rolleyes:

[TomcatViP]

Hi Kodoss,

I didn't know abt the mules but they must be fairly small or be of the type that you register only to get some Eu subventions ;)

Frankly in game the G50 seems not to have much than 240/340. That's why I think it's more a Vespa74 :rolleyes:

PS : Just forgot to say that it's surprising that powering up on the ground the Fiat acceleration is fairly good. It's once the wheel are off the ground that you get the sluggish effect (is that 840@FWP ;) )

[Rickusty]

Shameless bump...

About the power. The G.50 is currently lacking the "WEP" emergency power , called the "+100" (it was +100 mmHg).
Power could reach a max of 960 Hp in emergency mode. Not too bad.
Manifold pressure could go up to a max. of 890mmHg.
In the game, you can't reach this pressure at all, in whatever conditions.

There is no "WEP" switch. If you can see on the left part of the instrument panel, there was a level with "+100" inscribed on it, which is missing in the model.

I wrote the problem on the first page of this thread.
I hope they'll try to correct this problem.
It really looks like the plane is missing about 200hp.

Cheers
Rick

[addman]

Shameless bump...

About the power. The G.50 is currently lacking the "WEP" emergency power , called the "+100" (it was +100 mmHg).
Power could reach a max of 960 Hp in emergency mode. Not too bad.
Manifold pressure could go up to a max. of 890mmHg.
In the game, you can't reach this pressure at all, in whatever conditions.

There is no "WEP" switch. If you can see on the left part of the instrument panel, there was a level with "+100" inscribed on it, which is missing in the model.

I wrote the problem on the first page of this thread.
I hope they'll try to correct this problem.
It really looks like the plane is missing about 200hp.

Cheers
Rick

From the Q&A of 23rd of December:

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=28633

8. Will the performances of the poor G.50 be upgraded to be closer to the real historical values? The G.50 maximum speed today is ~350 kmh at sea level against 407 kmh found in books and online references. The G.50 ceiling in game is some 5000 m, against 10500 m found in various sources.

Quote:
"Yes, it’s one of the things the new FM programmer will work on."

[Kwiatek]

Lets hope they will correct flight model and performacne for all CloD planes which desperatly need it not only Fiat G50.

Then probably i will start to play in CLOD.

[Rickusty]

From the Q&A of 23rd of December:

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=28633

8. Will the performances of the poor G.50 be upgraded to be closer to the real historical values? The G.50 maximum speed today is ~350 kmh at sea level against 407 kmh found in books and online references. The G.50 ceiling in game is some 5000 m, against 10500 m found in various sources.

Quote:
"Yes, it’s one of the things the new FM programmer will work on."

:o

Great, thank you Addman.
I lurk around here often, but not often enough to see all the threads and posts.
That's great news! I hope we'll have all our models revised and corrected asap.

[kestrel79]

Where the heck is the fuel gauge in the g50? I ran out of gas tonight in the middle of a dogfight...not good.

Any advice for takeoff in the sim? My engine kept stalling on me as I tried to throttle up while warming up. Not warm enough yet?

And the plane kept sputtering and shaking while taking off. Plus it takes forever to get going on the ground.

Once I got airborne it was fun to fly though.

[JG53Frankyboy]

fuel, right side panel.

i warm up till 200 degrees before start. and dont forgett, mixture is manuel in the G.50

[41Sqn_Banks]

I wonder if the G.50 did have a boost control that prevents over-boosting below FTH.

Edit: As there was a +100 button to obtain higher boost it obviously did have a boost control.

[kestrel79]

Thanks Franky I found it.

Any tips on warming up to 200? That has to take forever the current way I do it. Rads closed and give it some throttle does that work best? You also have to adjust the cylinder head knob to get a proper reading right? Some guys on ATAG told me that last night and it helped setting it on "3".

[TomcatViP]

Hi,

You need to close both oil rad and eng cowling flaps right after ignition. The wait for the oil to raise to 50+ deg (don't let it goes beyond 60 !) and 250 for the engine cylinder. Usually I select the 3rd pos to monitor the higher cylinder temp (lever at 12hr as always)

In flight keep cylinder temp btw 250 and 300 (it required to let open the eng cowling flaps most of the time what doew not seems to be accurate).

The oil rad need to be ctly monitored with the flaps closed or opened to keep temp in teh 50 to 60 range (close it when your eng temp is falling - partially open it at cruise speed depending of your flight regime - open it fully when the temp is reaching the 60 mark (9 o'clock position)

At allt>1500 you'll need to start to lean the mixture. It means decreasing the ratio of Fuel air SLIGTLY !

Regarding the G50 perfs and flight model I hve in the idea that this part of teh CoD project was intended to be a Cr42. They then switched it into a G50 when they realized that their Spit model was out turning the biplane (probably trhat's why we don't hve a flyable Glad.

Thing you hve to know:
- a crazy Spit G addict will always out turn your G50 leaving you falling down to earth with no frwd speed.

- With a Hurri (a one with a CoD approved FM), it will depends of your speed. At slow speed, the thick hurr wing will play its part; let your nose drop, gain 50/100 kph and then you'll turn tighter.

- The two 12.7mm MG are very effective giving you can aim accurately for 1 sec. During BoB, RAF pilots were issued no to go on head-on with th eitalian planes. Some of the most talented RAF jockey loose their pride that way ;) :shock:

- the sound of your bullets hitting an opponent is awsome. Enjoy your open cockpit experience ! ;)

I hope it will helps you.

~S!

[ATAG_Doc]

From the Q&A of 23rd of December:

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=28633

8. Will the performances of the poor G.50 be upgraded to be closer to the real historical values? The G.50 maximum speed today is ~350 kmh at sea level against 407 kmh found in books and online references. The G.50 ceiling in game is some 5000 m, against 10500 m found in various sources.

Quote:
"Yes, it’s one of the things the new FM programmer will work on."

I cannot get the G50 past 3000 m. I am fine all the way up until I get up there then it starts to lose power. What's the configuration needed to climb past 3?

[TomcatViP]

You hve to work your climb with modesty ;)

To give you a tip : I am unable to escort BR20 as I can't even fly at their speed at such height !

[Rickusty]

Nice tips Tomcat.
And yes , tested this, and indeed it's hard to follow the BR 20...:)

[addman]

I cannot get the G50 past 3000 m. I am fine all the way up until I get up there then it starts to lose power. What's the configuration needed to climb past 3?

Well, I've reached the bomber formations on the ATAG server and I think they are well above 3000 m, can't remember exactly though since I haven't been online for quite some time now. It's possible to get above 3000 though, I guess the following is important in the G.50 to reach higher altitude:

1. High prop pitch, not full but almost full, even when you are flying low and level.
2. Same with the throttle, almost full.
3. Mixture (I think), give less mixture as you reach higher altitudes. You can see on the RPM meter, if you start to loose RPM's you need to lower the mixture.
4. Radiators open just above half-full, oil rads open just below half-full (I'm not even sure the oil rads are doing anything at all, could probably close them all together)
5. Fuel, I rarely have full tank in the G.50. Keep it light.
6. Patience, once his bird reaches a certain altitude it turns into a barely flying brick, the devs are working on the FM's so hopefully this will be corrected already in the upcoming patch.

I hope this helps a little at least, sorry for the delayed answer.:grin:

[ATAG_Doc]

Thank you for this info I will try this out soon. Much appreciated.