More on epilepsy in Cliffs of Dover

[luthier]

Hi everyone,

The team could never in a million years imagine that a post on a Russian-language forum would so quickly make the rounds and spread around the internet.

The information there is not accurate, especially the placing of the blame on Ubisoft.

I feel that I need to describe this in more detail.

Our game did cause wide-scale epilepsy failures when tested. Propellers, muzzle flashes, smoke puffs, explosions, falling bombs, flying or taxiing between buildings, sun shining through canopy framework, etc, they were all causing potentially seizure-inducing flashes.

We worked hard to address all these issues individually, but since a flight sim is all about fast-moving large objects, there were just too many instances of things causing high-contrast flashes.

So, as we were running out of time, WE decided to implement this epilepsy filter as a stop-gap measure.

The filter sits on top of the game's graphics wrapper. It saves a previous frame, and then compares it pixel-by-pixel to the new frame. When two pixels are found with a high degree of contrast between them, the new pixel is toned down to make the change less drastic.

This causes a visual effect somewhere between bloom and motion-blur that removes virtually all instances of high-contrast flashes.

However this pixel-by-pixel frame analysis and modification takes up additional resources, it in fact delays the showing of each new frame until each pixel of it checked, and therefore the filter is causing deteriorated performance that is especially notable on lower-end machines.

We are continuing to work to optimize the game and to increase its framerate. Ubisoft has been very patient and understanding with us throughout the entire process, and we are continuing to work with them very closely to find the best solution to epilepsy issues.

In summary, I want to stress that it is OUR code and OUR game engine that is causing performance issues. And it US who has to make it better, and that's exactly what we pledge to do.

[JG52Krupi]

Thanks for the clarification luthier.

Any idea when the problem will be solved?

[Bowtome]

Give us an option to turn it off?

Thanks for the update

[meshuggahs]

Thanks for the honest reply.

Hoping to see those improvements on the 31st! :-)

[Triggaaar]

Thanks for the update. So is there the option to turn the filter off, allowing the game to run quicker, with less obvious motion blur etc?

[Hecke]

Will this filter be switchable?

[JG52Uther]

Give us an option to turn it off?

Thanks for the update


+1
Can you not put it in the conf.ini?

[swiss]

I'm willing to accept the risk and therefore want the original.

Where do I sign the waiver?

[T}{OR]

Thank you for this explanation. Fingers crossed that you succeed in solving this in near future. Especially for making it an optional feature.

[1.JaVA_Sharp]

thanks for the information, Luthier.

[Longy]

Well good thing that you clarified. Looking forward to seeing the game being improved. :)

[Hecke]

Luthier,

I don't know if you are up to date, but this epilepsy stuff is not only a huge debate, it has already and will force people to cancel their (pre)orders.

[Kankkis]

Nice and honest reply, thx

Jani

[Voyager]

I hate to say this, but that is actually rather fascinating. I wonder if this may end up being one of the long therm limitations of high levels of realism in computer games?

[Winger]

Make it optional and NOONE ever again complains about it. Its that simple.

Winger

[Bwaze]

I guessed there must be more to the story than it appeared from first posts. Will abstain from writing further arboreal posts and patiently await for the 31. March.

Hope you solve the issue.

[manfromx]

Thx for the info, I'm sure you guys will get it running better.

Still... wish it was an option :(.

Maybe with some pressure from the outside they'll let you bend on this.

[sod16]

luthier
Could you please tell us the graphic card and processor + ram you use to run the game in your office? I think those "system requirements" are all unreliable.

World in conflict has an OPTION to turn it on and off. It would be nice if you allowed the option to be unofficially changed without your consent, so therefore its not your problem.

[bw_wolverine]

Good luck with optimization. I really hope for success!

I think perhaps the line for today is:

KEEP CALM AND CARRY ON!

[Plt Off JRB Meaker]

Yes thanks Luthier for the clarification,we can all now cancel our pre orders and await further development of the game,as such time dictates now would not be an ideal time to purchase this.

Please inform us when you can fix this for us so we may in turn purchase this masterpiece,when it's playable.

[ICDP]

Thank you for taking the time to update us on this issue. Good luck getting it sorted.

[CharveL]

The good news is that, being a blanket filter it should be easy to turn off so long as the means to do so is exposed in the cfg.ini, if not in the menus instead of half-done changes to dozens of effects.

Even if the switch has to be un-official, just make sure it's there.

[zauii]

Thanks for clarifying.

[Storm of When]

Thx for the information. I must say this is what you get in a world obsessed with health and safety, how many people with Epilepsy play flight sims and how many will play CoD....not many i`m guessing and for this small percentage of the community we all have to pay with no X-Fire or SLi, and lower framerates.

I`m diabetic so when i`m playing football I do so knowing i`ve got to eat a load of sugary stuff before I start playing it`s called common sense where i`m from, so if your unfortunate and suffer from epilepsy a flight sim with massive amounts of glints and flashes probably ain`t the greatest choice of game, i`m all for the option to enable by default an anti-epilepsy tool, with the option to turn it off for the people without. Placing these limitations on everyone is a major error, i`ll wait till it`s sorted before placing my order, i`ve cancelled the current one.

Maybe more info on the effects and frame loss rates would be a good move?/

[JumpingHubert]

will it mean for the future that all game developement with a little bit open world, real scenery and realistic graphics will be canceled or reduced to a standard blurry low contrast porridge?? On the other hand there are tons of games/films with 10 explosions per second and lots of 360° scripted camera turns....something is wrong with the world

sorry for my bad english..

[addman]

Thanks for the clarification Luthier. I -for one- will of course buy the game on day one but I have to admit that I am a bit disappointed that the game will be crippled like this. I recently invested in a HD6850 that I actually couldn't afford in the hope that I would get a good gameplay experience just for CoD. Of course I play other PC games too but I specifically upgraded for CoD, this sucks so hard....:(

[C_G]

Thanks for the clarification, Luthier.

I'm surprised at your surprise... don't you know IL2 fans are slightly demented?
I enrolled in a three-year Russian college course just to read the Russian forums. I just completed Spit-Whining 201 last semester (got 97%, if you must know).

[recoilfx]

Thanks for the clarification Luthier. I -for one- will of course buy the game on day one but I have to admit that I am a bit disappointed that the game will be crippled like this. I recently invested in a HD6850 that I actually couldn't afford in the hope that I would get a good gameplay experience just for CoD. Of course I play other PC games too but I specifically upgraded for CoD, this sucks so hard....:(

Good thing is that HD6xxx series does a lot better than the nVidias, at least from the reports so far.

[swiss]

it`s called common sense where i`m from,


So you're from MARS?!

Or maybe, the past...

[bigchump]

Thanks for being honest about it.
Please give us a way to switch it off.

[Biggs]

My ignorance of the intricacies on this subject leads me to believe that this is a very daunting issue to fix...

I wish the programmers best of luck.

[Ploughman]

Thanks for the info, be good if it could be turned off if that was an option but otherwise I know you'll all be working hard to acheive as efficient a solution to this as you can. From what I can gather it's raised the minimum spec a bit a now machines have to deal with this extra layer of complexity but I've no doubt we'll all be more than satisfied shortly. It's also good to know that the filter is a stop gap measure and won't be the final solution for epileptics.

[Triggaaar]

I want to confirm that everything said here is true, we have implemented some drastic features for anti-epilepsy protection which are affecting FPS and killing SLI support.

We CANNOT make these optional. That will allow an opportunistic or an unfortunate person suffering from epilepsy to sue Ubisoft for damages and literally close down the studio for good.Oh :(

[TallBonapart]

Flu medicine will not help you,if you have a brain tumor.Its naive to believe that they will sort the problems and optimize the game engine till 31st.They had 7 years.Canceling my order on Steam.See you next year(maybe).;)

[Storm of When]

Biggs mate, your avatar has a glint in it, please remove it, thats how daft this is....lol. Put a switch in thats enabled as on by default, this means it`s a conscientious decision to disable it by turning it off.

[C_G]

Trigaaar,

I must have re-read the first post 8 times... where did you get that Luthier quote from?
C_G

[Bowtome]

Quote:
Originally Posted by luthier View Post
I want to confirm that everything said here is true, we have implemented some drastic features for anti-epilepsy protection which are affecting FPS and killing SLI support.

We CANNOT make these optional. That will allow an opportunistic or an unfortunate person suffering from epilepsy to sue Ubisoft for damages and literally close down the studio for good.
Oh

Weird really, people who are blind cannot drive a car, so if they do and crash it, can they sue the people who make cars for allowing them the option, what a load of old codswallop.

And smoking kills fact, but because it says so on the packet, they can't be sued. Put a massive disclaimer as the first loading screen, FFS

[T}{OR]

Trigaaar,

I must have re-read the first post 8 times... where did you get that Luthier quote from?
C_G

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=238831&postcount=55

[6S.Manu]

Come on guys, I'll support you!

[Avala]

Maybe do it directly in the video card driver? Maybe Ati and Nvidia wouldn't mind? Like some option to turn it off and on, but directly in the driver settings? There is similar thing "vertical sync" already, maybe something of that can be used.

Like IL2: CoD specialize driver?

Just some thoughts . . .

[Trumper]

:confused:In the UK if a TV programme or news report has flashing photography in it they give a verbal warning that it contains flash photography:rolleyes:
Surely if they can broadcast live to millions all at once a sim/game is capable of issuing a warning so that anyone carrying on past the warning accepts responsibility of their own actions. :confused:

[RocketDog]

This is very disappointing news and does not inspire much confidence. What sort of FPS hit are we talking about? 2 FPS I can live with, if it's 10 FPS then this is a deal breaker.

[C_G]

Thanks Thor....
I am so bummed by this.
Ridiculous, I know... it's just a game after all.
It seems to me that any program that had to compare each frame with the previous frame and make consequent graphical changes is going to be inherently resource intensive, no matter how well coded.

Sadly, the ambulance chancing lawyers win again...
Like others have suggested, I'd gladly sign a waiver- failing that one would think that making it a necessarily conscious choice to turn off the filter, once duly warned of the risk, would constitute an explicit acceptance of that risk.
[sigh] time to walk away from the 'puter and get some perspective, I suppose...
C_G

[=XIII=Shea]

Looks like back to faitefull il2:1946,So why doesnt dcs a-10 have this,a-10 has the blinding sunrays also,its total BS

[Voyager]

Well, from what Luthier is saying, Cliffs of Dover is less "Flash Photography" and more, "Japanese Seizure Bots".

[adonys]

In summary, I want to stress that it is OUR code and OUR game engine that is causing performance issues. And it US who has to make it better, and that's exactly what we pledge to do.

This sounds like a poor damage control post.

IT states nothing we didn't knew already: of course that the code is Maddox, but is UBI that IMPOSED that code to be added to the game.

We worked hard to address all these issues individually, but since a flight sim is all about fast-moving large objects, there were just too many instances of things causing high-contrast flashes.

We DO NOT want to have the 6 years hard working created engine/game teared to pieces in order to add this code, which will simply make it to not be a simulator anymore.

We need to have the game as it was made BEFORE this epilepsy thing, and every modification to it added in order to address the potential epilepsy issues, to be added as an option, ie, allowing normal people to play without it. It's sick to punish all the people just because it might hurt some which shouldn't/won't play this game anyway.

Regarding the necessity to avoid a lawsuit, it can be easily done how it was done hundered times before: IF the epilepsy warning is disabled from ini file, at the launch of the game, put up a mandatory pop up stating epilepsy care-bear code was deactivated, and any user entering the game does it on its own risk (the standard MMO EULA) and by pressing the ACCEPT button (which will be the only way to start the game). This mean no ordinary user can acceidentally start the game without the epilepsy filter code, as it needs to be manually added to the ini file, and even if will do it, being forced to press the Accept button in order to start the game means he was warned and knows about it, and chose to do it at his own risk. From law's point of view, this method is bullet proof (again, see all the MMO's legal part solutions).

All of the above IF this "epilepsy filter" excuse is true.. Because it very much looks like actually it isn't..

Do not seek further excuses on something which looks more and more as not being what is presented to be, but rather a smoke screen to hide the complete lack of optimization done on this engine, and the fact that it does NOT meet the reasonable gameplay experience on minimum settings/minimum requirements. Which, btw, can lead to real suits against UBI.

PS: I've pre-ordered a CE of this game, in order to help both UBI and Maddox and give my support for this game/genre. If UBI doesn't make this so called "filter" optional, I will cancel my pre-order, and I will look forward to buy a russian 1C release after all the optimisations to the engine are made.

[T}{OR]

@ adonys:

Spot on.

[House M.D.]

Guys, as long as this reasoning is true (and I do believe Ilya), you can't blame them and you can't ask them to offer it as an optional setting for the simple reason that not all epileptic people know their problem!

You can't ask them to risk this, because the person who might have the problem can be YOU!
And you may get it while being alone in your darklighted room and get all of the possible problems.

Just give them time to find a solution to this problem.

Let's wait and in the meantime...betatest the game!

[Kianoni]

I still blame Yubisoft. it's them who are enforcing this in case someone who has peanut allergy buys a product with peanuts in it.

[swiss]

Guys, as long as this reasoning is true (and I do believe Ilya), you can't blame them and you can't ask them to offer it as an optional setting for the simple reason that not all epileptic people know their problem!

You can't ask them to risk this, because the person who might have the problem can be YOU!
And you may get it while being alone in your darklighted room and get all of the possible problems.

Just give them time to find a solution to this problem.

Let's wait and in the meantime...betatest the game!

I wonder how i survived the past 35years - with all those flashy lights...

It just needs a waiver, end of story.

[House M.D.]

Kiaoni you don't get it.
You may be "eligible" for epilepsy and not knowing it and that's the main problem.

[Flying Pencil]

Please, please, please make this switchable, luthier!

I am a pilot, fly single engine aircraft into the sun, and have no issue with PSE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosensitive_epilepsy).

I think it is great you are considerate to those who do have an issue, but the real pilots of WW2 did not have this filter (just sunglasses), and I would rather have no filtering.

Regards!

S!

[MD_Titus]

Oh :(
having waivers for this sort of thing wouldn't wash. EULA are regularly ticked and ignored, and it would have to be something you tick whenever playing it as it wouldn't differentiate between users on a single machine. i can see the legal sense behind this, imagine if they asked pipe fitters and builders to sign waivers regarding asbestos - everyone would sign because they want to work. same with this, everyone will tick it as they want to play. all it takes is one unscrupulous bugger to sue.

there's a line in microwave instruction manuals about not drying pets in them. guess how it got there.
Come on guys, I'll support you!
this.

everyone getting all pissy and cancelling their orders - if the same had been done to rise of flight it would've died on it's arse. as it is, investment = continued development. turn down the settings, get used to the mechanics of the new sim and watch as the patches come rolling in to improve visual performance. maddox games have good form in this respect. feel a bit sorry for the russian buyers being used as beta testers, but good lord can you imagine the whinefest if the release date had been set back another 2 months...
Well, from what Luthier is saying, Cliffs of Dover is less "Flash Photography" and more, "Japanese Seizure Bots".
lol

[Kianoni]

Kiaoni you don't get it.
You may be "eligible" for epilepsy and not knowing it and that's the main problem.

I survived 33 and half years already spending many nights in rave parties so I guess I'm fine.

[C_G]

House,

That's an interesting point, but I don't think it's a legally accurate one.
Food manufacturers aren't precluded from making products with peanut or peanut oil on the chance that a consumer might not be aware that they have a fatal allergy to peanuts.

They're only required to perform due diligence in warning consumers that their products do or may contain peanuts.

C_G

[Winger]

Slowly i am starting to think the epilepsy filter thingie might just be an argument to hide poor game optimisation behind. I hope the 31th will proove me wrong. I just cant think of an other reason to make this "feature" optional. I mean this "problem" already damaged the reputation of the game pretty much. But maybe the damage is less with the "epilepsy scapegoat" than it would have been without?

Winger

[JG27CaptStubing]

Other UBI games have it optional...

[Kianoni]

House,

That's an interesting point, but I don't think it's a legally accurate one.
Food manufacturers aren't precluded from making products with peanut or peanut oil on the chance that a consumer might not be aware that they have a fatal allergy to peanuts.

They're only required to perform due diligence in warning consumers that their products do or may contain peanuts.

C_G
That's what I was referring to as stated in other threads.

[kalimba]

This sounds like a poor damage control post.

IT states nothing we didn't knew already: of course that the code is Maddox, but is UBI that IMPOSED that code to be added to the game.

Nope...Read carefully...1C decided to implement the "filter" themselves cause they were not able to adjust and modify their code in time for release...
As for the obligation of reducing the risk of seizures to a minimum, 1C must have been knowlegable of that for a while...ANd agreed to this obligation...
They were caught by surprise when the tests results came in,,,
And luthier has good words for UBI in this matter...
So UBI bashing is not justified here...

Salute !

[House M.D.]

Actually CG you find about these kind of allergies from your very early years.

Epilepsy can happen later - even after a hit in your head when falling down from the stairs or your bike.
You just don't know when it'll come.

Anyway, I'm with you guys that since we "know" that we don't have a problem why not enjoy the game, but publishers seem to think of the possible dangers and there are ones, that's the problem.

[41Sqn_Banks]

Looks like we have to get the russian version somehow:


Luthier:

This is what the team will work in the coming days:

1. Anti-epilepsy will once and forever banished from the Russian version of the game. This adds up to 10 fps on older machines. You now can manually disable the filter - the instructions were given repeatedly.


http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=67866&p=1573025&viewfull=1#post1573025


Luthier, which solution is planed for the international version?

[Kankkis]

I have been worked 22y. in gamebusiness/gamesales and distribution, i know who i blame.

US.

Kankkis

[Biggs]

Biggs mate, your avatar has a glint in it, please remove it, thats how daft this is....lol. Put a switch in thats enabled as on by default, this means it`s a conscientious decision to disable it by turning it off.

Is this better?

[adonys]

Nope...Read carefully...1C decided to implement the "filter" themselves cause they were not able to adjust and modify their code in time for release...

You are wrong! Because, at the moment Maddox was asked to add this, it knew very well 1C didn't required it, therefore it was not needed for 1C too. So, all they were needed to do was to make a branch in the code for it, not add it to the trunk.

I'm sorry, but the more I am looking at it, and the more I see the way UBI/1C/Maddox guys are reacting, the more I am convinced the "epilepsy filter" problem is not real.

[YellowPaw]

It doesn't have to be you that has epilepsy.

You're playing CoD in your den and your son comes in to see what you're doing - he looks over your shoulder to watch and BAM! You didn't know he was an epileptic until that moment. All the 'I'll take responsibility for my own safety' arguments mean bugger all when that happens. It isn't just about you.

Sorry to be melodramatic, and I agree it's extrememly unlikely to happen, but... just sometimes, it does happen.

When I was a mere schoolboy of 15, I watched a teacher up and die in the middle of a lesson due to epilepsy - it was quite unnervinging to say the least.

For myself, I've been playing Il2 for the last ten years or so - and I'll be playing this new game for the next ten at least. I hope Ilya and co get things sorted out soon. Until then... the sun is actually shining on the south-east of England for a change - I think I'll go for a walk.

[Catseye]

Actually CG you find about these kind of allergies from your very early years.

Anyway, I'm with you guys that since we "know" that we don't have a problem why not enjoy the game, but publishers seem to think of the possible dangers and there are ones, that's the problem.

IMHO, this is a legal requirement now in the US. Regrettably, UBI have elected to manage distribution to other countries with the US requirement in place for all. Not all countries require this to be in place. As usual, one size does not fit all.

As far as I'm concerned, if I could get it elsewhere without pax Americana I would.

[Kianoni]

Actually CG you find about these kind of allergies from your very early years.

Epilepsy can happen later - even after a hit in your head when falling down from the stairs or your bike.
You just don't know when it'll come.

Anyway, I'm with you guys that since we "know" that we don't have a problem why not enjoy the game, but publishers seem to think of the possible dangers and there are ones, that's the problem.

The question is not whether an individual can develop a condition - it's about enforcing a prevention mechanism in a single aspect of life that actually does not prevent the condition from developing.

[Kankkis]

Looks like we have to get the russian version somehow:



http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=67866&p=1573025&viewfull=1#post1573025


Luthier, which solution is planed for the international version?

I want to know this too.

Or i just learn russian language and buy russian version.

Kankkis

[swiss]

House,

That's an interesting point, but I don't think it's a legally accurate one.
Food manufacturers aren't precluded from making products with peanut or peanut oil on the chance that a consumer might not be aware that they have a fatal allergy to peanuts.

They're only required to perform due diligence in warning consumers that their products do or may contain peanuts.

C_G

Correct. Ban peanuts!

[Biggs]

looks like we have to get the russian version somehow:



http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=67866&p=1573025&viewfull=1#post1573025


luthier, which solution is planed for the international version?

+1... Do want!

[JG52Uther]

Looks like we have to get the russian version somehow:



http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=67866&p=1573025&viewfull=1#post1573025


Luthier, which solution is planed for the international version?

Reading other responses in the thread,it looks like there might not be a fix.Invisible propellors...
Does the Russian version work on an English version of W7?

[House M.D.]

Correct. Ban peanuts!

Nope, because your child doctor gives you instructions what and when to feed your kid.
The feeding procedure is supposed to be under control and mommy is supposed to watch her kid after she feeds it a potential problematic food.

[Oldschool61]

Kiaoni you don't get it.
You may be "eligible" for epilepsy and not knowing it and that's the main problem.

How many people die every year from epiliectic seizures from video games??
I have never heard of one case.

[swiss]

You're playing CoD in your den and your son comes in to see what you're doing - he looks over your shoulder to watch and BAM! You didn't know he was an epileptic until that moment.

That would be the perfect spot to notice his disease - at least, then you know and it happend right beside you.

What if this happens on a staircase? Or while climbing up a tree?

[Kankkis]

1. Anti-epilepsy will once and forever banished from the Russian version of the game. This adds up to 10 fps on older machines. You now can manually disable the filter - the instructions were given repeatedly.

2. We have already discovered the cause of micro-Friesians at low altitudes. Repairs should take a small enough amount of time.

3. We continue to optimize the game. Our chief programmer - the optimizer is sick the third day, but it does have a concrete plan of work, which again is in a fairly short period of time will improve the framerate. Wonders of course we do not promise, but the flight over the landscape will be dramatically different than the flights have to water.

4. Texts are checked korerktorom. Kreditsy already cleaned out.

5. The remaining issue for us at least a high priority. We hope to release a patch that improves the frame rate and the ruling texts next week (it will automatically take stim) and then in a free mode to address other issues, to improve the game, adding planes and m e.

I hope that is for international version too..

[Oldschool61]

Is this better?

Someone might have an epileptic siezure from that avatar. Put a damn filter on it NOW

[swiss]

Reading other responses in the thread,it looks like there might not be a fix.Invisible propellors...
Does the Russian version work on an English version of W7?

Now imagine a night mission in the 110 with 108s...

:evil:

[House M.D.]

How many people die every year from epiliectic seizures from video games??
I have never heard of one case.

We agree but the problem with a possible sue in USA is above all.
They wouldn't risk it at all, especially after they had tests proving the problem.
Not to mention the public discussions that make it completely impossible to close your eyes to the problem.

At least we're lucky that no such sensitivity exists in Russia (as far as we know) and thus there will be some way that we all get that release ;)

[Biggs]

Фильтр решает большое количество разных вспышек. Менять и проверять их каждую по отдельности - работа на долгие недели, а то и месяцы.

Убрать фильтр на западной версии сможем только тогда, когда в индивидуальном порядке поправим все вспышки, и нужда в фильтре отпадет.

seems like they WILL remove the filter.... only when they fix the "flashes" that are present in the game....

no idea what that entails, but i hope its not an overly invasive task :confused:

[el0375]

thanks for clarifying, i intend to buy the game boxed, but im in italy and looking for a CE.
IMHO all this,its true that is a little ''shocking'', but im very confident on your team. First of all the release date itself posed me some doubts, seemed rushed in some aspects. But some may say, ''but you were developing for 6 years or so!''
Me atleast , i was honestly surprised for the release too, but was concerned.... maybe because i experienced the Silent Hunter series and offcourse SH5..
positevely, im really looking forward about your product, that im looking to buy (since 2006) and i think that ( i suppose) that the biggest risk now is the maybe lack of further oprimisation( or some decisions of the moment due to time limitation) that will come later on. I say that because AFAIK review sites usually review the product at first release( that is my concern for the try to widen the audience).
Nevertheless, i support you, and furthermore, i have to thank you for your time these past months to try answer and clarify misunderstatements. You are responsible also for my love in planes due to IL-2 ( that in my opinion is a sort of wwii air-encyclopedia)
So, I wish the very best for all of you, and for this project too

[Kianoni]

Ban shoes because you can walk over cliffs of Dover with them, fall on rocks and die.

[House M.D.]

thanks fort clarifying, i intend to buy the game boxed, but im in italy and looking for a CE.
IMHO all this,its true that is a little''shocking'', but im very confident on your team. First of all the release date itself posed me some doubts, seemed rushed in some aspects. But some may say, ''but you were developing for 6 years or so!''
Me atleast , i was honestly surprised for the release too, but was concerned a little.... maybe because i experienced the Silent Hunter series and offcourse SH5..
positevely, im really looking forward about your product, that im looking to buy (since 2006) and i think that ( i suppose) that the biggest risk now is the maybe lack of further oprimisation( or some decisions of the moment due to time limitation) that will come later on. I say that because AFAIK review sites usually review the product at first release( that is my concern for the try to widen the audience).
Nevertheless, i support you, and furthermore, i have to thank you for your time these past months to try answer and clarify misunderstatements. You are responsible also for my love in planes due to IL-2 ( that in my opinion is a sort of wwii air-encyclopedia)
So, I wish the very best for all of you, and for this project too

That's the spirit!
+1.000.000!!!

[adonys]

Luthier's statement (http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=67866&p=1573122&viewfull=1#post1573122): The filter solves a large number of different outbreaks, while to change and check them one by one will be a work for many weeks, even months.

Removing the filter on the western version can only be done when we've individually fixed all flashes, and there's no longer the need for the epilepsy filter.

So, it is cristal clear now: the UBI western version of the game will have this filter removed only after all the individual fixes for flashes will be in.

Which means, the UBI western release of the game will be forever crippled (because all the individual flashes fixes actually reads invisible propellers arc, and so on..)

Time to make some friends in Russia, and ask Luthier to internationalize (add english) in the russian version of the game.

So, Luthier, can at least this be made?

[Kikuchiyo]

Luthier thanks for being honest with us about the problems. It actually makes me feel more confident about purchasing your product. I hope you are all able to get the major bugs worked out in time for the NA release, but even if you haven't I already have my copy on pre-order, and look forward to crashing my virtual plane lot next month.

Only a few devs I have any faith in and 1C Maddox is amongst them. Thank you for being forth coming and quelling rumors, and for all the dedication of the entire development team at 1C Maddox.

[T}{OR]

seems like they WILL remove the filter.... only when they fix the "flashes" that are present in the game....

no idea what that entails, but i hope its not an overly invasive task :confused:

Two weeks, I tell ya. Why even release it for the rest of the world then?

[robtek]

YESS!

A "english - patch" for the russian version and a russian distributor delivering to germany!!!
Amerika shouldn't be the measure for all things!

[nynek]

I'm willing to accept the risk and therefore want the original.

Where do I sign the waiver?

And that's the way to go. All today's soft needs some sort of "agreeing upon" in order to use it. Put ME back in charge of choosing my poison.

[Buzpilot]

Thanks for nothing, now I'll have to see if I can cancel my already prepaid Steam version!!!!

[kalimba]

You are wrong! Because, at the moment Maddox was asked to add this, it knew very well 1C didn't required it, therefore it was not needed for 1C too. So, all they were needed to do was to make a branch in the code for it, not add it to the trunk.

I'm sorry, but the more I am looking at it, and the more I see the way UBI/1C/Maddox guys are reacting, the more I am convinced the "epilepsy filter" problem is not real.

In other words, you are saying that Luthier is not telling us the truth, and to add more, you say there is a conspiracy to make us believe that the game's issues are not related to poor coding ?

Hum...That is interesting indeed...:cool:

Salute !

[Dagon]

This situation is so disappointing. Honestly I still don't see how this is anyones fault but UBI. If the devs had gone with any other publisher we wouldn't be in this mess.

At this point what needs to happen is for UBI to release them from the obligation to have the game epilepsy safe, go back to pre-anti-epilepsy code, and put a big disclaimer on start-up. I don't think anything less would satisfy everyone at this point.

[Tree_UK]

Thanks for that Luthier, no one would believe me when i told this lot it wasn't Ubi's fault,

apologies below please.

[addman]

As someone said before, minus a couple of FPS ok, minus 10+ FPS no go! I'm sorry but I simply can't invest in any new hardware (gotta a wee one in the pipeline) and if the game won't run smoothly on my rig - and I don't want to scale it down to early 90's flight sim - then I simply won't buy it.

[Tree_UK]

Thanks for the clarification luthier.

Any idea when the problem will be solved?

so was i right then Krupi???

maybe this will jog your memory

No, No and No

I have read elsewhere that they dropped the epilepsy rule a year ago.

You have no idea, about the meetings between Ubi and 1c so STFU your full of assumptions that you have no means of verifying!!!

[Storm of When]

"We have already discovered the cause of micro-Friesians"

What have small dairy cows got to do with it...the plot thickens!!!!!

[Azazello]

Looks like I'll be waiting a while longer before I get this game.

Shame, I was looking forward to it.

Bad show all round.

[Vevster]

YESS!

Amerika shouldn't be the measure for all things!

the issue is not only with the US, but also UK:

http://www.epilepsy.org.uk/campaigns/lobbying/video-games

Some games manufacturers have already begun pre-screening their latest games. These manufacturers include Ubisoft, the games developer responsible for the title that triggered a seizure in Gaye’s son. These manufacturers are demonstrating a conscientious attitude towards the safety of gamers. They inspire some confidence that regulations may not be necessary if manufacturers will all voluntarily screen their products. But would all manufacturers be as conscientious?

“The games industry has tried to be responsible,” says John. “But if measures remain voluntary, there is the possibility that a small-scale manufacturer from another part of the world may not adhere to it. You may get one or two rogue games creeping through. Nevertheless, starting off with a voluntary approach may be the fastest way to get this done. Getting laws through Parliament is a slow and careful process. A voluntary code may be the fastest way to get a lot of the benefit, even if the system is not perfect.”



Other editors do the same

[YellowPaw]

That would be the perfect spot to notice his disease - at least, then you know and it happend right beside you.

What if this happens on a staircase? Or while climbing up a tree?

I find this a somewhat specious argument. I don't believe there is a 'good' way to have an epileptic fit.

But, whatever - I'm not really arguing. I just don't think the more self-serving opinions being catapulted about this forum are entirely representative of the issues at stake.

Perhaps I'm lucky in that my PC died recently (motherboard or cpu - both were neolithic anyway). I was going to wait a month or so before working out the spec for a new 'beast-rig' and, consequently, I get to watch developments with a certain emotional detachment.

By the time I get round to playing, I have faith that the issues will be resolved. Why do I have faith you ask:) - it is simple: watching the attention given to the original Il2 over the many years since it launched.

[addman]

I guess if 1c/MG/Ubi would pay for upgrading my rig I'd buy it but how can you expect people to buy something that will be barely playable? No problems for people with deep pockets but for the rest of us?

[Devastat]

It seems that because of epilepsy-gate muzzleflashes, sparks and flying debree have been removed as well from current version of CoD. But the game sounds very good ..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwOW8fnL5F0&feature=player_embedded

[BigPickle]

So is this issue past tense ie solved with this filter, or does it have to be added now?
Secondly is the game safe to play? I dont wanna spaz out and end up foaming at the mouth as epilepsy can start at any point in someones life I heard.

[LoBiSoMeM]

I love the way people blame UBISoft and US for everything... Oh, and Steam service will be the next devil!

Gimme a break... Freetrack works in this thing, at least? Any russian customer can say something about it?

[JG52Uther]

The filter is on now,thats why the game is screwed.Hopefully they can fix it,but for now in the west we have to live with it or not.
The filter on the Russian version will be removed within days.

[ATAG_Doc]

To me this is a late punch to the gut.

I mean took the wind right out of me. No offence, I do respect the hard working men that develop this product but I have to make a decision. And I've made it.

Until this is resolved and there is an option to turn on what I want on or off what I want off I will not let politics, lawyers or any game company decide what is best for me. I smoke. I drink. I love salt. I eat red meat. I love vegetarians since less meat eaters only means lower prices of meat. I cuss. I will probably die some day. But if I'm spending my money on something I want what I want. Otherwise I will just go do something else.

Thank you for ordering from UBIShop. At your request, or at the request of the fulfiller and/or the manufacturer, the following was canceled from your order.

Product Name Qty Ordered Reason for Cancellation
IL-2 Sturmo 1 Other


Your Order Information:
Order ID: 872*******
Order Date: January 20, 2011
Shopper ID: 7546*******

[Biggs]

So is this issue past tense ie solved with this filter, or does it have to be added now?
Secondly is the game safe to play? I dont wanna spaz out and end up foaming at the mouth as epilepsy can start at any point in someones life I heard.

no the "issue" has been caused BY the filter... the filter is the FPS killer...

they are working on a fix to regain the FPS / remove the filter...

[T}{OR]

The filter is on now,thats why the game is screwed.Hopefully they can fix it,but for now in the west we have to live with it or not.
The filter on the Russian version will be removed within days.

Now where is that Russian dictionary I had laying around...

[swiss]

Until this is resolved and there is an option to turn on what I want on or off what I want off I will not let politics, lawyers or any game company decide what is best for me. I smoke. I drink. I love salt. I eat red meat. I love vegetarians since less meat eaters only means lower prices of meat. I cuss. I will probably die some day. But if I'm spending my money on something I want what I want. Otherwise I will just go do something else.



Wanna marry me? :D

[ATAG_Doc]

I love the way people blame UBISoft and US for everything... Oh, and Steam service will be the next devil!

Gimme a break... Freetrack works in this thing, at least? Any russian customer can say something about it?

If it isn't playable why bother? http://goo.gl/6NHxZ

[JG52Uther]

Now where is that Russian dictionary I had laying around...
All you need to do is go to the Sukhoi forum,and let google translate the forum from Russian into English or anything else.
Its not perfect,but it works well enough.

[swiss]

All you need to do is go to the Sukhoi forum,and let google translate the forum from Russian into English or anything else.
Its not perfect,but it works well enough.

Not sure you can use google translate ingame...

[T}{OR]

All you need to do is go to the Sukhoi forum,and let google translate the forum from Russian into English or anything else.
Its not perfect,but it works well enough.

I was referring to the Russian version of the game, not Russian forum. ;)

[deadmeat313]

Oh stop whining you bunch of pathetic crybabies!

I know for a fact that as soon as this game hits the shelves I'm going to buy it and have a whale of a time. Regardless of the epilepsy filter.

Do you think Oleg & crew are reading this forum and saying "Noooo, he's cancelled his pre-order! Noooooo! We have failed and must make amends somehow!"?


T.

[JG52Uther]

I was referring to the Russian version of the game, not Russian forum. ;)
Oh, ok lol!
Wonder if I should buy a Russian dictionary as well!

[StonedRaider]

Well I have relatives in Russia, who will gladly buy and post me some copies of the Russian verssion. So i guess i am ok.

Who wants one?

[Durham_Duke]

no the "issue" has been caused BY the filter... the filter is the FPS killer...

they are working on a fix to regain the FPS / remove the filter...

Fixes are for bugs. A filter isn't a bug; it's a deliberate layer and unfortunate processing overhead. Surely it'll be like playing while recording with FRAPS?
If they can't remove the filter legally or make it optional, I doubt they will be able to somehow increase the FPS like magic without degrading the way it was meant to be seen.
Sounds like it not only hits the FPS but really spoils the image also. The code will already be optimized as far as possible. We all want this game to run and look as good as originally intended. That's why we all dash home each Friday to see what's happening, today especially. We've been captivated by the prospect of what is to come for many years.
I know there's a lot of upset and confusion in this forum right now but my main sympathies go to the guys in the team. They'll be gutted at the moment and I hope they all continue on, including Oleg. We don't just want the game; we want the game as intended with the whole team leading it's evolution for years to come. Please stick with it Oleg and Co.

[robtek]

@StonedRaider

If i can patch it to english or german ill take one!

The price for more safety is less freedom!!!

[swiss]

@StonedRaider

If i can patch it to english or german ill take one!

The price for more safety is less freedom!!!

in

[RedToo]

From Luthier's post:

Propellers, muzzle flashes, smoke puffs, explosions, falling bombs, flying or taxiing between buildings, sun shining through canopy framework, etc, they were all causing potentially seizure-inducing flashes.

Very strange list - falling bombs? Taxying between buildings? How come these things in IL2 didn't cause any problems? How come these things things don't cause problems in other games?

Did all the game developers employed to create CloDo have epileptic seizures during the development process? What about the public allowed on the game at Igromir?

All in all rather peculiar.

RedToo.

[Biggs]

Fixes are for bugs. A filter isn't a bug; it's a deliberate layer and unfortunate processing overhead. ......

semantics!

All I know is the Luthier gave his word that they will "correct" (is that better for you?) this issue. And I trust that they will do it in a way that will compromise the look of the game as little as possible.

His promise is good enough for me.

[Geier]

Weird. As far as I know, every game comes with a message alerting about 'Video game-induced seizures', and that's all. It's all about you.

Once you are aware about the potential problem, no legal issues will arise.

Are the "special effects" in CoD so different to the point to cause all these problems?

[StonedRaider]

@StonedRaider

If i can patch it to english or german ill take one!

The price for more safety is less freedom!!!

All the games i own from Russia have an option for what language you want to install it in. Ok they are 2-3 years old, but i don't see why this option would not be available. Otherwise there are always comunity made mods/patches that can traslate your game to a certain language.

So i'll enquire when this can be done, but it will definatley be after the 31st of March for the Europe release.

[ATAG_Doc]

Oh stop whining you bunch of pathetic crybabies!

I know for a fact that as soon as this game hits the shelves I'm going to buy it and have a whale of a time. Regardless of the epilepsy filter.

Do you think Oleg & crew are reading this forum and saying "Noooo, he's cancelled his pre-order! Noooooo! We have failed and must make amends somehow!"?


T.

I'm sure they're not worried one bit. But I wont be worried one bit about when it will be fixed either.

[mazex]

Well, the real lesson from this is for Ilya. Dropping comments like the first ones on the night of the pre-release was something you:

A/ Gained a lot of respect for - after all it was not your fault but Ubisofts!

B/ This whole story started another storm in the water glass and you MAYBE lost a bunch of "customers" that have been following the game for six years but now cancelled their orders just hearing this bable-fished rumor!

C/ Lost a big percentage of the REAL customers that will finance your further development of the series as the rumor of the anti epilepsy scheme will spread all over the world like the fire here in the forums.

My vote is at B if this is handled correctly.

Just make it work and delay the release in the rest of the world until you have acceptable frame rate with medium settings on a decent midrange computer bought last year. Not having that is something the reviewers will never accept, even though I will accept if until version 1.08 like I did with RoF.

If an 8Gb Core i7 with a GTX460/HD 5870 does not run the game decently you will crash in flames when the big reviewers put their teeth in this game... They don't care who's fault it is, and neither do the potential REAL customers. If making the anti epilepsy code optional is necessary then make 1C and Ubisoft understand that - or work around it.

[Hecke]

Gimme the russian version with english language for christ's sake !

[T}{OR]

Just make it work and delay the release in the rest of the world until you have acceptable frame rate with medium settings on a decent midrange computer bought last year. Not having that is something the reviewers will never accept, even though I will accept if until version 1.08 like I did with RoF.

If an 8Gb Core i7 with a GTX460/HD 5870 does not run the game decently you will crash in flames when the big reviewers put their teeth in this game... They don't care who's fault it is, and neither do the potential REAL customers. If making the anti epilepsy code optional is necessary then make 1C and Ubisoft understand that - or work around it.

A delay is the most reasonable thing to do now. There are already cancellations all over the place, just browse through various flight sim related forums. It will hurt the sales, no question about that.

[swiss]

Gimme the future fixed russian version without any stupid filters and english language for christ's sake !

fixed. :grin:

[Warhound]

Regarding the necessity to avoid a lawsuit, it can be easily done how it was done hundered times before: IF the epilepsy warning is disabled from ini file, at the launch of the game, put up a mandatory pop up stating epilepsy care-bear code was deactivated, and any user entering the game does it on its own risk (the standard MMO EULA) and by pressing the ACCEPT button (which will be the only way to start the game). This mean no ordinary user can acceidentally start the game without the epilepsy filter code, as it needs to be manually added to the ini file, and even if will do it, being forced to press the Accept button in order to start the game means he was warned and knows about it, and chose to do it at his own risk. From law's point of view, this method is bullet proof (again, see all the MMO's legal part solutions).

It's not that simple I fear, someone unlucky or evil could claim they disabled it but their kid reached the game while they went to the toilet and got a massive seizure ,causing injuries ,braindefects from lack of air or even death.
I can imagine a lawsuit could actually win if the game really does cause seizures all the time. If it happens 100x more often than on other games or movies a judge could rule the developer and publisher had knowledge of it and had an obligation to fix it beforehand. Especially in the USA i can see this happening ..and the EU isn't far behind in "customer protection" these days.


Sad times, but i'm convinced Maddox Studio's will work and work at this issue untill that woodcutters axe is just a stubby rubber toy.
I'm glad to keep my preorder ..and hopefully enjoy the game on release. Even if it's unplayable for a year I'll be happy to have supported Maddox in their time of need and hope they hang in there to eventually give us many many more years of releases.
Think we all (developers and fans equally) would hate it if this issue would mean the end of a beautiful, longlasting lovestory.


little snippet from the article linked earlier :
These voluntary warnings are not only ineffective in the case of consumers who don’t realise they are photosensitive. They may actually be putting off many people with epilepsy who are not even at risk.
This warning effectively discourages anyone with epilepsy from playing without the involvement of a GP or neurologist. This is despite the fact that only three to five per cent of people with epilepsy are photosensitive. The other 95 to 97 per cent of people with epilepsy are at no risk whatsoever – but may still be missing out.

[Devastat]

Now I start to wonder how can I order the russian version??

This was translated on the UBI forums:

_____


The future of the project The Battle of Britain
Dear friends,

Thank you for your support. Please accept my personal apologies for the problems when you start the game. We worked in full all hands on deck for a long time, last month was even more hectic, and we had a little to the final cleaning of the product.

This is what the team will work in the coming days:

1. Anti-epilepsy will once and forever banished from the Russian version of the game . This adds up to 10 fps on older machines. You now can manually disable the filter - the instructions were given repeatedly.


posted by luthier here,

http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=67866&p=1573025&viewfull=1#post1573025

[Mysticpuma]

So just a question.

How many people who flew the Beta at the game show we saw so many videos from were actually carted off to Hospital with Epileptic issues?

Seriously worried here re. the state of game release. Makes you wonder if the Epilepsy 'wrapper' was added to give a reason for poor performance?

Gutted but waiting to see what happens with the extra month before US release?

Here's hoping!

Cheers MP

[Blackdog_kt]

Ban shoes because you can walk over cliffs of Dover with them, fall on rocks and die.

Ok, this one really made me laugh :-P

[ATAG_Doc]

I do not blame any of the devs that built this product I am not angry at all. Just very disappointed. I will buy it but only when it's ready for prime time. No pun intended but I do want a heart stopping experience.

[Mauloch]

The Russian forums sound very level-headed compared to ours. It's no wonder they got the game ahead of us here in North America.

Also, these forms belong to the 1C Company, don't they? If so, why are you working so hard to keep us all safe from epilepsy in CoD while allowing funny man "Biggs" to flash that icon in our faces without him getting a big 1C boot planted where it belongs?

Just one more thing, how disrespectful to go on a company's forums and tell them you cancelled your order followed with a long-winded spew of why we should care! What ever happened to just cancelling the order after saying nothing about it, ever?

P.S Why are these few (who already stated they are not going to buy your game) still here?? Most here are looking forward to your game CoD, so how long do we have to keep reading the trash talk about Ubisoft and your game? You do have Ubisoft selling your game for you, don't you? I though you Russians had more snap in your walk then this!

[Mick]

Just make it work and delay the release in the rest of the world until you have acceptable frame rate with medium settings on a decent midrange computer bought last year. Not having that is something the reviewers will never accept, even though I will accept if until version 1.08 like I did with RoF.

If an 8Gb Core i7 with a GTX460/HD 5870 does not run the game decently you will crash in flames when the big reviewers put their teeth in this game... They don't care who's fault it is, and neither do the potential REAL customers. If making the anti epilepsy code optional is necessary then make 1C and Ubisoft understand that - or work around it.

You said it all mate, this is really pathetic ... :rolleyes:

[choctaw111]

Thank you the explanation, Luthier.
Before now, I never knew that an epilepsy filter was applied to any game.
I only saw the "epilepsy warning" on the game box.
The only thing that I am left wondering is that since not everyone who will use Cliffs of Dover has epilepsy, and if the filter causes decreased performance, why not have the filter as an option?

[mazex]

A delay is the most reasonable thing to do now. There are already cancellations all over the place, just browse through various flight sim related forums. It will hurt the sales, no question about that.

I do agree that the pre-order cancellations are for sure real even though I can't understand how long time followers can be so short sighted and abandon MG in "their finest hour". The RAF lost in France but when pushed against the wall in Britain they delivered - in version 1.04 ;)

They just have to fix the stuttering which I am sure depend on a lof of things as I would be very surprised if the game was running at 50fps on a top notch single GPU rig while chasing 30 He 111:s over London with a squadron of Spitfires before this problem... And this engine MUST do that.

Those customers that have pre-ordered must be simmers, how else could they have heard of the game considering Ubisofts lack of advertising efforts on this title? And as Ubisoft sure must have known about the problems, the lack of a proper marketing campaign may have been very much a deliberate action. If they did not believe that they would get the game into a stable release state until late March - why put down a big advertising campaign? Postponing release dates is hardly something any gamer will be surprised about. Look at Diablo III, GTA 5, The Old Republic etc. The list is long.

And we even don't know if it was Ubisoft or 1C that put the pressure up. It is 1C that is the main publisher and they DID publish the game with stuttering problems that are now blamed on the anti epilepsy scheme pushed down the throat by Ubisoft (?) (if that is the main problem).... Have we heard anyone bashing 1C here? Maybe it is 1C that really has put the ultimatum up, no more money if you don't have an RC done before the first week of march... This time we mean ít. Someone has paid for the six years of development, and when gold platers like Oleg get free hands they can continue adding knobs and rivets for ages. Sorry to sound harsh but as a development manager myself for a team that is of about the same size as MG I have some experience of that myself.

Anyway - my pre-orders stays whatever the next storm in the water glass will be - and I wish the team good luck on getting the bugs squashed!


EDIT: In my BoB allegory above, is it really Ubisoft that is Germany and 1C that is Italy pushing them into the wall before being prepared? We don't know if it is the opposite :)

[Il2Pongo]

Nope...Read carefully...1C decided to implement the "filter" themselves cause they were not able to adjust and modify their code in time for release...
As for the obligation of reducing the risk of seizures to a minimum, 1C must have been knowlegable of that for a while...ANd agreed to this obligation...
They were caught by surprise when the tests results came in,,,
And luthier has good words for UBI in this matter...
So UBI bashing is not justified here...

Salute !

Your a plant.

Smoking is allowed in all of these countries, as is alcohol consumption, sky diving, motor bike riding, skate boards, snow boards.


But a FREAKING video game cannot just have a warning.
Please, there is no law about this, creepysoft just got on this band wagon because some epileptic found out during a game that he was epileptic.

There is no law about this in canada, the US, probebly not in the UK.
This is just absolute crap and the dev is saying what he has to say to pacify his distributor.
Its like all the crippling DRM that microsoft insisted be implemented in all vista video card drivers. The card manufactures took all the flack for being late with their drivers and the slow performance but it was all Microsoft putting the nanny state into the driver requirements that caused it.

[Hveding]

Really hope they fix this before 31th.
Im tired of getting disappointed every time im looking forward to a game.
Archlor and APB got closed up after short time.

[Tvrdi]

Slowly i am starting to think the epilepsy filter thingie might just be an argument to hide poor game optimisation behind. I hope the 31th will proove me wrong. I just cant think of an other reason to make this "feature" optional. I mean this "problem" already damaged the reputation of the game pretty much. But maybe the damage is less with the "epilepsy scapegoat" than it would have been without?

Winger

LOL Winger; thats what crossed my mind....all the puzzles are here...and we have painfull experience with "optimisations" in Rise Of Flight (and its still unsolved).....It would be easier for all if both smiling characters admit that they have problems whit optimisations and that we will need few years for PC`s which could handle their products in online battles....and then again....maybe it was UBI with their demand but he wont admit...who would know....nowadays nobody is 100% honest...shity times I say......

and just for the record..I might get "epilepsy" after trying the game with that stupid filter and bloomsih/blurish motion...But I think Ill just get drunk...

It seems that because of epilepsy-gate muzzleflashes, sparks and flying debree have been removed as well from current version of CoD. But the game sounds very good ..

noooooo...aaarghhh

[Herra Tohtori]

Ok, see, I realize the post-processing filter is one reason for bad performance. And I realize it'll eventually be removed as the mentioned individual issues are "addressed" one-by-one.


I have a problem with the need to address those issues in the first place.

To put it in simple terms: If the real situation has a flash and it's removed from game graphics because of some arbitrary epilepsy screening method saying it could trigger seizures, that's detrimental to the quality of the graphics of the game even if it runs at fluid 60 FPS on a five years old PC.

Flashes are part of reality, and removing flashes from simulation where they would be appropriate will reduce the realism factor of said situations.

Artificially degrading the quality of the effects for everyone just to appease some lobbyist group worried about seizures makes about as much sense as removing killing from first person shooters to appease Mr. Jack Thompson.

This is the main problem I have: Ubisoft's blanket policy on this matter. If they have this requirement as part of their quality assurance testing, then that quality assurance testing is misguided.

And if they categorically refuse to release games where it's possible to turn neutered anti-epileptic effects off in favour of more realistic effects, then that policy is a failure for a simulation game.

I'm not going to comment on speculation that this is just a smoke screen for bad performance etc. etc. What I want is a game with realistic portrayal of flight and associated plays of light and shadow, within reasonable limits of current hardware of course.

This filter thing, regardless of whose decision it was to apply it to the game, is not reasonable in my books. If it were voluntary, fine - but mandatory reduction of performance and quality, especially for a reason such as this is not something I could be happy with.


I'm not going to cancel my pre-order for this, however. I'll get the game, try it on my rig, and if it doesn't run properly I'll wait for patches to address relevant issues. I would, however, be tremendously disappointed if future patches don't fix the effects to satisfactory realistic levels.

I wish that somehow, at some point, the developers and players can both be satisfied with the game, that the developers find a way to deliver a version to the players that they originally intended it to be.


Well, I think I have said all I have to say about the subject at this time. I wish all the best to the developers in their quest to deliver a functional game to customers, and I'll be following the state of the game with great interest.

Meanwhile, while the problems are addressed, I can always return to the skies in IL-2 1946...

[Zoom2136]

Your a plant.

Smoking is allowed in all of these countries, as is alcohol consumption, sky diving, motor bike riding, skate boards, snow boards.


But a FREAKING video game cannot just have a warning.
Please, there is no law about this, creepysoft just got on this band wagon because some epileptic found out during a game that he was epileptic.

There is no law about this in canada, the US, probebly not in the UK.
This is just absolute crap and the dev is saying what he has to say to pacify his distributor.
Its like all the crippling DRM that microsoft insisted be implemented in all vista video card drivers. The card manufactures took all the flack for being late with their drivers and the slow performance but it was all Microsoft putting the nanny state into the driver requirements that caused it.

Considering the risk of having a seizure, strob lights should be outlawed... no more strob lights in clubs... nada... I'm calling my representative...

[Zoom2136]

Ok, see, I realize the post-processing filter is one reason for bad performance. And I realize it'll eventually be removed as the mentioned individual issues are "addressed" one-by-one.


I have a problem with the need to address those issues in the first place.

To put it in simple terms: If the real situation has a flash and it's removed from game graphics because of some arbitrary epilepsy screening method saying it could trigger seizures, that's detrimental to the quality of the graphics of the game even if it runs at fluid 60 FPS on a five years old PC.

Flashes are part of reality, and removing flashes from simulation where they would be appropriate will reduce the realism factor of said situations.

Artificially degrading the quality of the effects for everyone just to appease some lobbyist group worried about seizures makes about as much sense as removing killing from first person shooters to appease Mr. Jack Thompson.

This is the main problem I have: Ubisoft's blanket policy on this matter. If they have this requirement as part of their quality assurance testing, then that quality assurance testing is misguided.

And if they categorically refuse to release games where it's possible to turn neutered anti-epileptic effects off in favour of more realistic effects, then that policy is a failure for a simulation game.

I'm not going to comment on speculation that this is just a smoke screen for bad performance etc. etc. What I want is a game with realistic portrayal of flight and associated plays of light and shadow, within reasonable limits of current hardware of course.

This filter thing, regardless of whose decision it was to apply it to the game, is not reasonable in my books. If it were voluntary, fine - but mandatory reduction of performance and quality, especially for a reason such as this is not something I could be happy with.


I'm not going to cancel my pre-order for this, however. I'll get the game, try it on my rig, and if it doesn't run properly I'll wait for patches to address relevant issues. I would, however, be tremendously disappointed if future patches don't fix the effects to satisfactory realistic levels.

I wish that somehow, at some point, the developers and players can both be satisfied with the game, that the developers find a way to deliver a version to the players that they originally intended it to be.


Well, I think I have said all I have to say about the subject at this time. I wish all the best to the developers in their quest to deliver a functional game to customers, and I'll be following the state of the game with great interest.

Meanwhile, while the problems are addressed, I can always return to the skies in IL-2 1946...

+1

[ATAG_Doc]

Thank you the explanation, Luthier.
Before now, I never knew that an epilepsy filter was applied to any game.
I only saw the "epilepsy warning" on the game box.
The only thing that I am left wondering is that since not everyone who will use Cliffs of Dover has epilepsy, and if the filter causes decreased performance, why not have the filter as an option?

It's all about the "collective" good for everyone. You see some people have more money so they take it from them and spread it around.

In school they give the first place through the last place a trophy. Equal for everyone let no one be left behind.

From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs.

[Novfanaion]

Just ditch Ubisoft already.

[adonys]

Well I have relatives in Russia, who will gladly buy and post me some copies of the Russian verssion. So i guess i am ok.

Who wants one?

I would want one, please. London, UK here.

[Oldschool61]

I would want one, please. London, UK here.

Hell if its got english capability it might be the way to go

[Hecke]

Report:

To configure a Core i7 920 & 3.8Ghz, 3Gb RAM, 475GTX off antiepilepsii and cloud storage significantly improved FPS, until completely smooth and comfortable flight over the water with the maximum settings (just played the second mission, with a sufficiently large number of planes), 1600x900 and 8x anti-aliasing. All over the land is acceptable, with the exact same settings, except mikrofrizov.

Hooray!


Докладываю:

Для конфигурации Core i7 920 & 3.8Ghz, 3Gb RAM, 475GTX выключение антиэпилепсии и облачного хранения данных значительно улучшило ФПС, вплоть до абсолютно плавного и комфортного полёта над водой с максимальными настройками (только что отыграл вторую миссию, с достаточно большим количеством самолётов), 1600х900 и 8х сглаживанием. Над сушей всё вполне приемлемо, с точно такими же настройками, за исключением микрофризов.

Ура!



http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=67830&p=1573485&posted=1#post1573485

[Royraiden]

Report:

To configure a Core i7 920 & 3.8Ghz, 3Gb RAM, 475GTX off antiepilepsii and cloud storage significantly improved FPS, until completely smooth and comfortable flight over the water with the maximum settings (just played the second mission, with a sufficiently large number of planes), 1600x900 and 8x anti-aliasing. All over the land is acceptable, with the exact same settings, except mikrofrizov.

Hooray!


Докладываю:

Для конфигурации Core i7 920 & 3.8Ghz, 3Gb RAM, 475GTX выключение антиэпилепсии и облачного хранения данных значительно улучшило ФПС, вплоть до абсолютно плавного и комфортного полёта над водой с максимальными настройками (только что отыграл вторую миссию, с достаточно большим количеством самолётов), 1600х900 и 8х сглаживанием. Над сушей всё вполне приемлемо, с точно такими же настройками, за исключением микрофризов.

Ура!



http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=67830&p=1573485&posted=1#post1573485

Thats encouraging.Plus 8xAA is a lot.How they got rid of the problem?Sorry to ask,I just didnt open that link.

[Skiiwa]

Option to turn off. I dont have the issue u describe. Please:) just add a popup" warning, by turning off this option, 1C is in no way responsible for any medical conditions incurred by said gameplay. Thank you and happy hunting"..... please may we have option to turnoff:)
Chris

Edit: spelling fopaw

[Hecke]

Thats encouraging.Plus 8xAA is a lot.How they got rid of the problem?Sorry to ask,I just didnt open that link.

For me this is just more disappointing, cause I will probably not be able achieve such results, nowhere near in the future.

[*Buzzsaw*]

Report:

To configure a Core i7 920 & 3.8Ghz, 3Gb RAM, 475GTX off antiepilepsii and cloud storage significantly improved FPS, until completely smooth and comfortable flight over the water with the maximum settings (just played the second mission, with a sufficiently large number of planes), 1600x900 and 8x anti-aliasing. All over the land is acceptable, with the exact same settings, except mikrofrizov.

Hooray!


Докладываю:

Для конфигурации Core i7 920 & 3.8Ghz, 3Gb RAM, 475GTX выключение антиэпилепсии и облачного хранения данных значительно улучшило ФПС, вплоть до абсолютно плавного и комфортного полёта над водой с максимальными настройками (только что отыграл вторую миссию, с достаточно большим количеством самолётов), 1600х900 и 8х сглаживанием. Над сушей всё вполне приемлемо, с точно такими же настройками, за исключением микрофризов.

Ура!



http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=67830&p=1573485&posted=1#post1573485

Too bad we in the West DO NOT have the ability to disable the E-filter as this person has.

[Biggs]

Too bad we in the West DO NOT have the ability to disable the E-filter as this person has.

Buzz... cmon man... did u not read my post in your thread?

they are working on it

[BobTuck]

At this rate we will all be buying the Russian version of the game, with english language turned on.

At least CloD will then be as intended, muzzle flash, propellers, high FPS, everything...


BobTuck.

[robtek]

Yes, lets vote with our money!

[JG52Uther]

Its probably region locked through steam...

[E69_vencejo]

Hi everyone,

The team could never in a million years imagine that a post on a Russian-language forum would so quickly make the rounds and spread around the internet.

The information there is not accurate, especially the placing of the blame on Ubisoft.

I feel that I need to describe this in more detail.

Our game did cause wide-scale epilepsy failures when tested. Propellers, muzzle flashes, smoke puffs, explosions, falling bombs, flying or taxiing between buildings, sun shining through canopy framework, etc, they were all causing potentially seizure-inducing flashes.

We worked hard to address all these issues individually, but since a flight sim is all about fast-moving large objects, there were just too many instances of things causing high-contrast flashes.

So, as we were running out of time, WE decided to implement this epilepsy filter as a stop-gap measure.

The filter sits on top of the game's graphics wrapper. It saves a previous frame, and then compares it pixel-by-pixel to the new frame. When two pixels are found with a high degree of contrast between them, the new pixel is toned down to make the change less drastic.

This causes a visual effect somewhere between bloom and motion-blur that removes virtually all instances of high-contrast flashes.

However this pixel-by-pixel frame analysis and modification takes up additional resources, it in fact delays the showing of each new frame until each pixel of it checked, and therefore the filter is causing deteriorated performance that is especially notable on lower-end machines.

We are continuing to work to optimize the game and to increase its framerate. Ubisoft has been very patient and understanding with us throughout the entire process, and we are continuing to work with them very closely to find the best solution to epilepsy issues.

In summary, I want to stress that it is OUR code and OUR game engine that is causing performance issues. And it US who has to make it better, and that's exactly what we pledge to do.

Thanks for post.
I cancel preorder right now.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Thanks for the clarification luthier.

Any idea when the problem will be solved?

How long is a piece of string?

[Sauf]

How long is a piece of string?

double the length from one end to the middle.

[sg1221]

How Ironic !
Here in the US , we consider ourselves the world leader in freedom , yet because
of a few thousand greedy trial lawyers and the corrupt liberal polititians who support them , we are forced to tolerate this kind of crap while many of the other
"not so free" countries get to enjoy a video game in it's unfiltered version.

Sheesh......when will we learn :confused:

[Sven]

Tolerate?
There's nothing to tolerate mate, or you happen to have the power to change Ubi's mind, which from rumours seems to consist of solid rock. It's a take it or leave it scenario basically. The only big hope is Luthier and his crew right now, working on a way to solve it.

[machoo]

I don't understand how you could have a risk of seizure in daylight , night battles I could see but muzzle flash in broad daylight?

[Skoshi Tiger]

From Luthier's post:

Propellers, muzzle flashes, smoke puffs, explosions, falling bombs, flying or taxiing between buildings, sun shining through canopy framework, etc, they were all causing potentially seizure-inducing flashes.

Very strange list - falling bombs? Taxying between buildings? How come these things in IL2 didn't cause any problems? How come these things things don't cause problems in other games?

Did all the game developers employed to create CloDo have epileptic seizures during the development process? What about the public allowed on the game at Igromir?

All in all rather peculiar.

RedToo.

Why are you assuming that they didn't cause seizures? The difference will be that the laws have changed, and now being aware of the problem 1C has a duty of care to take all resonable steps to minimize the effects. Otherwise they would be liable.

You will probably find the laws are not retrospective.

Depending on your view point, seeing a string of bombs falling in front of a bright background (sun, cloud what have you) would produce a series of flashes.

Elpilepsy is one of those things that can remain dormant is a person for their whole life, until the right set of events triggers an episode. The last thing I would want to interrupt my gaming session would be a over night trip to the children hospital if that trait suddenly decided to express itself in one of my children.

1C is just showing us how much they care for their customers.

cheers!

[Oldschool61]

How Ironic !
Here in the US , we consider ourselves the world leader in freedom , yet because
of a few thousand greedy trial lawyers and the corrupt liberal polititians who support them , we are forced to tolerate this kind of crap while many of the other
"not so free" countries get to enjoy a video game in it's unfiltered version.

Sheesh......when will we learn :confused:

Really I think we in USA can have our swastikas

[richardG]

Oleg should fire Ubi, and release the game via digital download straight from Russia. More money for Oleg, better game for us. Problem solved.

[Sutts]

"Propellers, muzzle flashes, smoke puffs, explosions, falling bombs, flying or taxiing between buildings, sun shining through canopy framework, etc, they were all causing potentially seizure-inducing flashes."

That sounds like a shed load of features that need to be made unrealistic to satisfy this ridiculous ruling. I want to see a realistic representation of propellor motion. I want to be dazzled by the sun off the canopy in a dogfight. I want to see realistic muzzle and bomb flashes.

I guess this is the reason those leaked vids were pulled so quickly....so we can't compare and see what we are missing. I do hope I get the chance to buy a copy that hasn't been visually frigged. Very dissapointing indeed.

[Sutts]

Oleg should fire Ubi, and release the game via digital download straight from Russia. More money for Oleg, better game for us. Problem solved.

That sounds like a great idea. I'd happily source from Russia if the language issues could be solved.

[Skoshi Tiger]

double the length from one end to the middle.

You answered your own question! Fantastic!

[jcenzano]

Why are you assuming that they didn't cause seizures? The difference will be that the laws have changed, and now being aware of the problem 1C has a duty of care to take all resonable steps to minimize the effects. Otherwise they would be liable.

You will probably find the laws are not retrospective.

Depending on your view point, seeing a string of bombs falling in front of a bright background (sun, cloud what have you) would produce a series of flashes.

Elpilepsy is one of those things that can remain dormant is a person for their whole life, until the right set of events triggers an episode. The last thing I would want to interrupt my gaming session would be a over night trip to the children hospital if that trait suddenly decided to express itself in one of my children.

1C is just showing us how much they care for their customers.

cheers!

Well, in that case, make the filter an option. Like when I drink 15 beers I have the option to drink them with alcohol and get Sh*** drunk or alcohol free and take proper care of my body.

Thing is LET US DECIDE and LET US TAKE THE RISKS we think are acceptable.

And I agree this is not a health related issue but a legal liability one. And we have to thank that to our fellows americans and their national sport: GREEDY STUPID LAWSUITS. No offense buddies.

[erco]

Despite my desire to play ROF, I'm still waiting for sli support before I buy. I've wanted COD waaay more than ROF, but until sli support is fixed, I'm thinking that I'll wait til the good guys at 1C have the code fixed.

I understand the legal situation, but count me among those who wish we could disable the epi-fix.

Thanks for the update, Luthier.

[carguy_]

Ok, see, I realize the post-processing filter is one reason for bad performance. And I realize it'll eventually be removed as the mentioned individual issues are "addressed" one-by-one.

It seems that many people misunderstand what Luthier`s saying. In the "rest of the world" version of the game, the filter is on. No options here. Now the Russian version has a conf.ini way to turn it off. What is the problem with translating the same version to Europe and US? If they had that idea in mind, then they wouldn`t have to work on anything.

Now what they are working on, is making the filter not eat up fps so much (it is a side effect). They are not working on how to turn it off. Hence, if you buy any version outside Russia, you just have to deal with the filter.


I have a problem with the need to address those issues in the first place.

To put it in simple terms: If the real situation has a flash and it's removed from game graphics because of some arbitrary epilepsy screening method saying it could trigger seizures, that's detrimental to the quality of the graphics of the game even if it runs at fluid 60 FPS on a five years old PC.

Flashes are part of reality, and removing flashes from simulation where they would be appropriate will reduce the realism factor of said situations.

Artificially degrading the quality of the effects for everyone just to appease some lobbyist group worried about seizures makes about as much sense as removing killing from first person shooters to appease Mr. Jack Thompson.

This is the main problem I have: Ubisoft's blanket policy on this matter. If they have this requirement as part of their quality assurance testing, then that quality assurance testing is misguided.

And if they categorically refuse to release games where it's possible to turn neutered anti-epileptic effects off in favour of more realistic effects, then that policy is a failure for a simulation game.

I'm not going to comment on speculation that this is just a smoke screen for bad performance etc. etc. What I want is a game with realistic portrayal of flight and associated plays of light and shadow, within reasonable limits of current hardware of course.

This filter thing, regardless of whose decision it was to apply it to the game, is not reasonable in my books. If it were voluntary, fine - but mandatory reduction of performance and quality, especially for a reason such as this is not something I could be happy with.

I feel exactly the same way. I was always 100% for the realism and not seeing any of the flashes I got naturally used to in IL2:1946 is going to leave a bad impression. The game might really be crippled.
I really think this is a bad decision.
You can`t say to a hardcore sim community 10 days before release that you`re cutting out 20% of its realism.
You can`t say to a pc oriented community 10 days before release that you`ve crippled the fps by an average of 10.

For the reasons listed above I can`t possibly buy the game. I never accept a bad quality product. 1C, don`t say that it is all right because it`s not. You significantly neuter the game two weeks before the big day but you still want me to give you money. I`m sorry but in this case you won`t get any from me, unless ofcourse I can get my hands on the Ruskie version that is.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Well, in that case, make the filter an option. Like when I drink 15 beers I have the option to drink them with alcohol and get Sh*** drunk or alcohol free and take proper care of my body.

Thing is LET US DECIDE and LET US TAKE THE RISKS we think are acceptable.

And I agree this is not a health related issue but a legal liability one. And we have to thank that to our fellows americans and their national sport: GREEDY STUPID LAWSUITS. No offense buddies.

None taken. This is a big shock delevered at the last moment. The reactions to it are very understandable.

Cheers!

[SQB]

What I don't get is this:
In real life isnt the flickering of a slow moving propeller (and yes I fly, I know that a prop moving at many speeds can seem invisible, but alot of the time, especially in helicopters, the prop is easily visible), the glittering of the sun, the sudden contrast of a fast moving vehicle going by... a varying contrast situation?

Do epileptics walk around with Anti Seizure glasses on? This just seems to be a reaction to possible law suits taken to the extreme.

I do hope this is made optional, just because I love the flashes and flickers of real life to be seen in a game that is, after all, representing reality. :rolleyes:

One can hope eh?

[Necrobaron]

Good grief. I've only skimmed over this thread but please just give us a way to turn this bizarre filter off and the problem is solved. I would imagine the vast majority of epileptics out there who might play CoD know of their condition and could simply keep the filter on.

[zapatista]

From Luthier's post:

Propellers, muzzle flashes, smoke puffs, explosions, falling bombs, flying or taxiing between buildings, sun shining through canopy framework, etc, they were all causing potentially seizure-inducing flashes.

Very strange list - falling bombs? Taxying between buildings? How come these things in IL2 didn't cause any problems? How come these things things don't cause problems in other games?

Did all the game developers employed to create CloDo have epileptic seizures during the development process? What about the public allowed on the game at Igromir?

All in all rather peculiar.

RedToo.

no, its rather easy to understand

the problem lies in the alternating dark and bright visual input, and if parts of the screen or the whole screen change, and at what rate etc

for ex in real life a person might have an epilepsy (or migraine) episode induced by driving on a bright sunny day on a tree lined street that produces intermittent visual input between the dark shaded area's and sudden bright light when the sun brakes through. if they drive for a few 100 meters like that it might not matter so much, but over a few km the input might be severe enough to be a factor (other factors might be how tired they are, if they are medicated etc..). btw many epileptics have their driving licenses revoked automatically once they are diagnosed, and they wont get it back unless they are on medication and are managed by their doctors.

with newer games the visual effects are much stronger then in some of the older ones, but some older games were already know to cause problems (hence the previous reporting of incidents, and computer game manufacturers starting to take this more serious)

it is a very good idea for BoB/Sow to be compliant with these basic new guidelines that have been put in place to reduce risk, because for the rest of us "normal folks" it means the game will be more comfortable to use in long gaming sessions, be less fatiguing, cause less headaches etc..

what is not a good idea is to have some kind of last minute filter placed on top of a finished game and grind the fpsec into the ground as a result, and making it just about unplayable.

[15JG52_Brauer]

Can someone show screenshots of before and after filter? Also before and after framerates? until then we don't know if this is a red herring, a storm in a tea cup , or a real problem.

[baronWastelan]

Apoplectic epilepsy epiphany exigency.

[lbuchele]

How Ironic !
Here in the US , we consider ourselves the world leader in freedom , yet because
of a few thousand greedy trial lawyers and the corrupt liberal polititians who support them , we are forced to tolerate this kind of crap while many of the other
"not so free" countries get to enjoy a video game in it's unfiltered version.

Sheesh......when will we learn :confused:
I'm not american,but totally agree with you regarding the lawyers and polititians,that's my perception about all this.
It seems like an industry of trials against everything and everyone.

[White Owl]

The crazy thing is, I never liked the visibly spinning props in IL-2 '46, anyway. :rolleyes:

I don't know how IL-2 came to be married to Ubi. However it started, this relationship is no longer healthy and Ubi shows absolutely no evidence of wanting to fix it. Oleg, Luthier... I hope you can find a way to divorce IL-2 from Ubi and still keep the lights on.

[kalimba]

Your a plant.

Smoking is allowed in all of these countries, as is alcohol consumption, sky diving, motor bike riding, skate boards, snow boards.


But a FREAKING video game cannot just have a warning.
Please, there is no law about this, creepysoft just got on this band wagon because some epileptic found out during a game that he was epileptic.

There is no law about this in canada, the US, probebly not in the UK.
This is just absolute crap and the dev is saying what he has to say to pacify his distributor.
Its like all the crippling DRM that microsoft insisted be implemented in all vista video card drivers. The card manufactures took all the flack for being late with their drivers and the slow performance but it was all Microsoft putting the nanny state into the driver requirements that caused it.

Ok then...Who choose UBI as publisher ? And who is suppose to know the rules and read the contracts ? UBI may be a bunch of @#$#%holes if you wish, but still, 1C could have signed with another publisher...
SO who made the mistake in the end ? DO you really think that after 10 years of partnership with UBI, 1C didn't know about this ? And that UBI call them 3 months ago to tell them:" Nice work, looks good ! Oh, by the way, you need to redo your code...You know, the epileptic thing ?"
Ya ..sure....Are you married ? Read your contract again....:grin:

Salute !

[kalimba]

no, its rather easy to understand

the problem lies in the alternating dark and bright visual input, and if parts of the screen or the whole screen change, and at what rate etc

for ex in real life a person might have an epilepsy (or migraine) episode induced by driving on a bright sunny day on a tree lined street that produces intermittent visual input between the dark shaded area's and sudden bright light when the sun brakes through. if they drive for a few 100 meters like that it might not matter so much, but over a few km the input might be severe enough to be a factor (other factors might be how tired they are, if they are medicated etc..). btw many epileptics have their driving licenses revoked automatically once they are diagnosed, and they wont get it back unless they are on medication and are managed by their doctors.

with newer games the visual effects are much stronger then in some of the older ones, but some older games were already know to cause problems (hence the previous reporting of incidents, and computer game manufacturers starting to take this more serious)

it is a very good idea for BoB/Sow to be compliant with these basic new guidelines that have been put in place to reduce risk, because for the rest of us "normal folks" it means the game will be more comfortable to use in long gaming sessions, be less fatiguing, cause less headaches etc..

what is not a good idea is to have some kind of last minute filter placed on top of a finished game and grind the fpsec into the ground as a result, and making it just about unplayable.

Man, you said it so brilliantly ;)...Last minute filter..The real problem is really there...Not in the process itself...

Salute !

[MikkOwl]

everyone getting all pissy and cancelling their orders - if the same had been done to rise of flight it would've died on it's arse. as it is, investment = continued development.
I love the series and I want to support them. But I have no way of communicating to UBI that I think this is unacceptable other than not purchasing their defective product. I don't want any FPS loss for the sake of anti-flicker. I am OK with anti-flicker existing, and the dev team spending time on it instead of other things, if I have the choice to turn it off.

The developers at Maddox Games all have my best wishes and loving. Keep on trying to find a solution for this. I'll purchase as soon as it is cleared up. EDIT: I might also be interested in trying to buy the Russian version, if the language can be set to English.

[Dangerdog]

EDIT: I might also be interested in trying to buy the Russian version, if the language can be set to English.

I doubt it can, but Steam controls when you can play the game as it's a Steamworks game (you register the cd-key number through Steam).

If you live in the US then you need to wait till it's "unlocked" for that region.

[Bearcat]

I don't have epilepsy.. neither does anyone in my family or anyone who comes to my house... If this safegaurd is not switchable then it basically penalizes those who do not suffer from this illness... So here is to hoping it is a switchable feature..

[Dougw133]

This is yet another disappointment. Between never knowing when this game will be released and hearing that UBI is taking the reigns this is another turn downhill. I'm not here to rant and moan, but simply let you know this kinda became the final straw for me and I do not see myself purchasing this game with any kind of limiter in place. Been beefing my system the last year and I know have my beast to find their will be FPS limitations. This is a CYA for a less than 1% of the population issue. It's a sad day when a freaking video game has to follow guidelines for seizure patients. Maybe we should make the world out of pillows for Hemophiliacs. Sad. If there is no switch for this I assure you lost 1 of many potential customers.

Thank you.

[Thee_oddball]

I don't have epilepsy.. neither does anyone in my family or anyone who comes to my house... If this safegaurd is not switchable then it basically penalizes those who do not suffer from this illness... So here is to hoping it is a switchable feature..

Bearcat you need to stop now sir...this is a modern society and logic has no place hear ... ;-)

S!

[salmo]

I am in the nursing profession & have a special interst in this topic.

Luthier reports the game caused "wide-scale epilepsy failures when tested". This suggests a high incidence of photosensitive epilepsy (PSE) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosensitive_epilepsy) was encoutered amongst game beta-testers. In contrast, the incidence of PSE across Great Britain has been reported to be about 1.1 per 100,000 persons (0.0011%) [Quirk et.al. 1995].

The decision to impliment an "epilepsy filter" is presumably based upon Luthier's anecdotal observations, rather than the scientific evidence. The low incidence of PSE in the community does not seem to justify such a decision.

References
J. A. Quirk, D. R. Fish, S. J. M. Smith, J. W. A. S. Sander, S. D. Shorvon and P. J. Allen, Incidence of photosensitive epilepsy: a prospective national study. Electroencephalography and Clinical Neurophysiology
Volume 95, Issue 4, October 1995, Pages 260-267

[lbuchele]

Luthier,the problem is that the entire community don't want this filter,don't want any removal of graphic effect who possibly affect suspension of disbelief either.
As this filter isn't something that law obligate,what about to talk about with Ubi and drop all those things who are hampering the game and menacing CoD sales and maybe the future of the series?
Besides,no one will convince a judge that he "accidentally" deactivate the epilepsy filter in the confi.ini setting it to 0 for example.
That's another way to do something about it,allow the filter to be optional.
I can't believe that in any country in the world someone can sue anyone because his personal choices even in US, am I wrong?

[fearlessfrog]

I think it's a automated testing tool that is used, rather than incidents in the beta program. It's used in TV/games production to measure contrast changes and 'score' the result for problems or susceptibility.

Also, saying 'I don't have epilepsy, so why bother' is missing the point of the guideline, in that it was introduced after video games caused seizures in people who didn't previously show any symptom.

PS Not saying I agree with the use of this 'filter' but just trying to help with actual info.

I am in the nursing profession & have a special interst in this topic.

Luther reports the game caused "wide-scale epilepsy failures when tested". This suggests a high incidence of photosensitive epilepsy (PSE) was encoutered amongst game beta-testers. In contrast, the incidence of PSE across Great Britain has been reported to be about 1.1 per 100,000 persons (0.0011%) [Quirk et.al. 1995].

!C's decision to impliment an "epilepsy filter" is presumably based upon Luther's anecdotal observations, rather than the scientific evidence. The low incidence of PSE in the community does not seem to justify such a decision.

References
J. A. Quirk, D. R. Fish, S. J. M. Smith, J. W. A. S. Sander, S. D. Shorvon and P. J. Allen, Incidence of photosensitive epilepsy: a prospective national study. Electroencephalography and Clinical Neurophysiology
Volume 95, Issue 4, October 1995, Pages 260-267

[Sauf]

so, saying 'I don't have epilepsy, so why bother' is missing the point of the guideline, in that it was introduced after video games caused seizures in people who didn't previously show any symptom..


Well in that case I dont see what all the fuss is about, Just advertise it as:

"IL-2 Cliffs of Dover, comes with free epilepsy tester for you and your whole family at no extra cost!"

They really are dumb at ubi marketing, sheeesh.

[David Hayward]

Well in that case I dont see what all the fuss is about, Just advertise it as:

"IL-2 Cliffs of Dover, comes with free epilepsy tester for you and your whole family at no extra cost!"

They really are dumb at ubi marketing, sheeesh.

Best post of the week. This game should be repackaged as an epilepsy test kit.

[fearlessfrog]

Best post of the week. This game should be repackaged as an epilepsy test kit.

I can see the advert now

IL-2 Cliffs of Dover - Your Eyes Will Roll Back In Excitement!

'Buy it now - it caused me to swallow my own tongue - it's that good!' - A recovering fan.

(*) Strobe light DLC attachment coming soon - see online for details

(Apologies if in bad taste - trying to lighten the mood a bit)

[gibxxi]

To Luthier & Oleg et al;

Sorry to say this after you've produced what looks to be the most exciting development in flight sim gaming for some time, but you've made a BAD mistake implementing this filter, and I'll tell you why.

Firstly, the whole issue has "knee-jerk reaction" written all over it. Due to one isolated case of photo-sensitive epilepsy, you've now neutered a game for 3/4 of the worlds potential players over a perceived risk that will, at-best affect 0.01% of that same population. And even if such cases do arise, which undoubtedly they will, will be very unlikely to result in serious injury or death in all but the most unusual or freakish of situations. And I can't see any judge awarding in favour of a plaintiff who disregarded or ignored suitable warnings.

I understand why you've done it. With the discovery coming so close to release date, you've implemented this quick fix (which I'd prefer to call a nasty hack), but your time over the last month would of been much better spent contacting Ubisoft's legal department to see how the laws stand in countries where the game is to be released.

Also, being Russian, and therefore not used to European / American / Western laws, I can also see how the fear of being sued into oblivion would prompt you to take some action. However the notion you provide that this filter cannot be made optional due to the risk of being sued is fundamentally flawed.

In the UK, AFAIK, the ONLY requirement for any product that may induce photo-sensitive epilepsy is that a disclaimer notifying users of the potential dangers is prominently displayed. Be it either in the packaging, or within the program. There are no lawful provisions in this country (yet) that make such a filter a mandatory requirement. Nor can i envisage a situation where any such law would be passed.

As to the poster who commented about the possibility of their child wandering into the room and suffering an attack by accident; that is scaremongering at best, and clutching at straws at worst. As a responsible adult and a parent, it is my responsibility to be aware of the risks to my child and therefore protect him from them. For example, keeping chemicals & medicines out of his reach are two prime examples. The law does not mandate that I must not or cannot use said medicines or chemicals because I have children. To do so would be health & safety gone mad. Being a safety rep at my place of work I'm well aware of how health & safety law applies in the workplace as well as in the home.

Take another point which I've often used to argue that these companies that offer "no-win-no-fee" cases to people ought to be themselves outlawed; If I'm walking along the high street and trip on a uneven flagstone, I should not be able to then sue my local council for damages because I was too inept / blind / stupid to be looking where I was walking in the first place. As long as the council at least followed the laws of the land to ensure my reasonable safety, the rest of the responsibility lies with me as a somewhat mature, rational, responsible adult.

Claims culture is a method of greed by people to obtain money under false pretences for injuries to which they were too ignorant to take the risks into account for themselves. The majority of sane, responsible adults should not be made to pay for the idiotic actions of those who are determined to injure themselves despite warnings and precautions put in place to protect them.

All that would be required if this issue did present any significant risk, would be to up the age restriction to 18's and over and as I've already said provide a disclaimer, and as some companies do, list measures how such risks of seizure can be avoided WITHOUT neutering the game from the get go.

I can tell you one law that will hurt you more than any perceived damage from Epilepsy. It's called the Sale of Goods Act. The product has to be fit for the purpose for which it was designed, and must be able to run according to the specifications that are published along with it. If I were Maddox games I'd be more worried by people suing me over the reduction in performance this filter brings with it, rather than the minuscule chance of an adverse epileptic reaction. It doesn't matter if patches are later released to "address" this issue. If the game is released on the 31st across the West, unable to be run on the specifications you as developers, and Ubisoft as publishers have mandated, you'll lose a hell of a lot more money in returns, cancellations and court cases than all the seizure court cases that would ever likely to be brought against you.

I don't see Call of Duty shipping with a mandatory filter. The only differences i can see aside from one being simulator and one FPS, is that one is at ground-level so there are less strikingly contrasting colours suddenly appearing, even when there are flashes and such like. White muzzle flashes, prop discs, debris are of course going to be more noticeable on a flight sim at 20,000ft, it goes without saying. And anyone with half a brain in their head will realize this too, however that does not excuse neutering or removing features because of it.

Kudos to Luthier for having the balls to confess to the origin and nature of such a filter. I do wonder if he would of been so forthcoming with the information had it not surfaced on the Russian forums first though. But either way you look at it, this is a rushed hack job that was shoe-horned in to keep the release on schedule. But the only mistake was not allowing responsible adult gamers the ability to CHOOSE for themselves what risks they wish to subject them or their immediate family to. You dropped the ball here guys.

It won't tempt me to cancel my pre-order, but be prepared for some very long-lasting negative feedback around the globe if this decision isn't rectified / reversed quickly. A scandal is what it will very likely turn into otherwise.

[Chivas]

WOP avoided epilepsy by putting a big green filter on everything to fade out any contrast. ;)

[Buzzer]

Amazed to read this. -10fps is a lot.
Tons of first-person-shooters must be a lot worse epileptic vice than a flight-sim. A warning is good enough there.

Make this optional, please!
Unbelieveable...

[Kikuchiyo]

To Luthier & Oleg et al;

Sorry to say this after you've produced what looks to be the most exciting development in flight sim gaming for some time, but you've made a BAD mistake implementing this filter, and I'll tell you why.

Firstly, the whole issue has "knee-jerk reaction" written all over it. Due to one isolated case of photo-sensitive epilepsy, you've now neutered a game for 3/4 of the worlds potential players over a perceived risk that will, at-best affect 0.01% of that same population. And even if such cases do arise, which undoubtedly they will, will be very unlikely to result in serious injury or death in all but the most unusual or freakish of situations. And I can't see any judge awarding in favour of a plaintiff who disregarded or ignored suitable warnings.

I understand why you've done it. With the discovery coming so close to release date, you've implemented this quick fix (which I'd prefer to call a nasty hack), but your time over the last month would of been much better spent contacting Ubisoft's legal department to see how the laws stand in countries where the game is to be released.

Also, being Russian, and therefore not used to European / American / Western laws, I can also see how the fear of being sued into oblivion would prompt you to take some action. However the notion you provide that this filter cannot be made optional due to the risk of being sued is fundamentally flawed.

In the UK, AFAIK, the ONLY requirement for any product that may induce photo-sensitive epilepsy is that a disclaimer notifying users of the potential dangers is prominently displayed. Be it either in the packaging, or within the program. There are no lawful provisions in this country (yet) that make such a filter a mandatory requirement. Nor can i envisage a situation where any such law would be passed.

As to the poster who commented about the possibility of their child wandering into the room and suffering an attack by accident; that is scaremongering at best, and clutching at straws at worst. As a responsible adult and a parent, it is my responsibility to be aware of the risks to my child and therefore protect him from them. For example, keeping chemicals & medicines out of his reach are two prime examples. The law does not mandate that I must not or cannot use said medicines or chemicals because I have children. To do so would be health & safety gone mad. Being a safety rep at my place of work I'm well aware of how health & safety law applies in the workplace as well as in the home.

Take another point which I've often used to argue that these companies that offer "no-win-no-fee" cases to people ought to be themselves outlawed; If I'm walking along the high street and trip on a uneven flagstone, I should not be able to then sue my local council for damages because I was too inept / blind / stupid to be looking where I was walking in the first place. As long as the council at least followed the laws of the land to ensure my reasonable safety, the rest of the responsibility lies with me as a somewhat mature, rational, responsible adult.

Claims culture is a method of greed by people to obtain money under false pretences for injuries to which they were too ignorant to take the risks into account for themselves. The majority of sane, responsible adults should not be made to pay for the idiotic actions of those who are determined to injure themselves despite warnings and precautions put in place to protect them.

All that would be required if this issue did present any significant risk, would be to up the age restriction to 18's and over and as I've already said provide a disclaimer, and as some companies do, list measures how such risks of seizure can be avoided WITHOUT neutering the game from the get go.

I can tell you one law that will hurt you more than any perceived damage from Epilepsy. It's called the Sale of Goods Act. The product has to be fit for the purpose for which it was designed, and must be able to run according to the specifications that are published along with it. If I were Maddox games I'd be more worried by people suing me over the reduction in performance this filter brings with it, rather than the minuscule chance of an adverse epileptic reaction. It doesn't matter if patches are later released to "address" this issue. If the game is released on the 31st across the West, unable to be run on the specifications you as developers, and Ubisoft as publishers have mandated, you'll lose a hell of a lot more money in returns, cancellations and court cases than all the seizure court cases that would ever likely to be brought against you.

I don't see Call of Duty shipping with a mandatory filter. The only differences i can see aside from one being simulator and one FPS, is that one is at ground-level so there are less strikingly contrasting colours suddenly appearing, even when there are flashes and such like. White muzzle flashes, prop discs, debris are of course going to be more noticeable on a flight sim at 20,000ft, it goes without saying. And anyone with half a brain in their head will realize this too, however that does not excuse neutering or removing features because of it.

Kudos to Luthier for having the balls to confess to the origin and nature of such a filter. I do wonder if he would of been so forthcoming with the information had it not surfaced on the Russian forums first though. But either way you look at it, this is a rushed hack job that was shoe-horned in to keep the release on schedule. But the only mistake was not allowing responsible adult gamers the ability to CHOOSE for themselves what risks they wish to subject them or their immediate family to. You dropped the ball here guys.

It won't tempt me to cancel my pre-order, but be prepared for some very long-lasting negative feedback around the globe if this decision isn't rectified / reversed quickly. A scandal is what it will very likely turn into otherwise.


Your points would be valid except for the fact that the Western publisher (Ubisoft) said implement it or we won't publish it. We can say "publish yourselves" all we want, but we don't know about any contractual agreements, or the publishing capacity of 1C Publishing as a whole. In the end we are getting what is contractually and physically possible by 1C Maddox. They have said they are working to correct the FPS issue and I for one am going to believe them. They aren't saying they are going to remove realism features, but correct them to fall within acceptable standards to prevent potential epileptic episodes in potential users. I do not believe that this means that realistic representation will be discernible from the mildly edited version.

I live in NA so I also have the advantage of an extra months worth of patches and fixes before I have to concern myself with release day bugs.

[addman]

Amazed to read this. -10fps is a lot.
Tons of first-person-shooters must be a lot worse epileptic vice than a flight-sim. A warning is good enough there.

Make this optional, please!
Unbelieveable...

Yeah, unbelievable...can't find words. This is so stupid that I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around it. Like 6 years in development and such an anti-climax. It all sounds so amateurish too, "oh! it was in the last minute we found out yadi yadi yada". If this game fails it's NOT because of the fact that people didn't buy the game, this is ALL on the developers. After following Oleg and IL-2 for over 10 years it really tears me up saying this.

[Bwaze]

The dog ate our code. Honestly!

It really sounds like that type of excuse...

[rfxcasey]

Epilepsy can happen later - even after a hit in your head when falling down from the stairs or your bike.
You just don't know when it'll come.


Oh great......Now we have to ban bicycles and stairs too! You should have never said anything as they hadn't thought of this till you brought it up. :-x

Seriously though, have you ever seen emergency lights and strobing flashers used on police cars and ambulances in the US? If anything is going to induce an epileptic seizure its that. Especially in drivers passing the scene of the crime/accident at night. Total facacta bologna if you axe me.

[Kikuchiyo]

The dog ate our code. Honestly!

It really sounds like that type of excuse...

[Poe's Law] I have to concur. This development team has such a long history of deceiving this community that I must take the word of the over-reactionary/naysayer/doubtful aspects of this communities word over the developers. These issues will never be fixed, and they are obviously out to rob us of our hard earned money as they have done so much in the past. How can we possibly trust them at their word?[/Poe's Law]

Give it time see what comes before you pass judgement.
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

[Coen020]

Oh great......Now we have to ban bicycles and stairs too! You should have never said anything as they hadn't thought of this till you brought it up. :-x

Seriously though, have you ever seen emergency lights and strobing flashers used on police cars and ambulances in the US? If anything is going to induce an epileptic seizure its that. Especially in drivers passing the scene of the crime/accident at night. Total facacta bologna if you axe me.

You see a lot of policecar light do you?
are you perhaps ... a crook?

[HundertneunGustav]

dont worry about epilepsy for me... if i can at some point get rid of it in some way, i will turn this epilepsy protection off. Bring on thebangs and lightnings, shockwaves and hazardeous flashes...

[6S.Maraz]

"Propellers, muzzle flashes, smoke puffs, explosions, falling bombs, flying or taxiing between buildings, sun shining through canopy framework, etc, they were all causing potentially seizure-inducing flashes."

That sounds like a shed load of features that need to be made unrealistic to satisfy this ridiculous ruling. I want to see a realistic representation of propellor motion. I want to be dazzled by the sun off the canopy in a dogfight. I want to see realistic muzzle and bomb flashes.


I agree !!
Is this the first flight simulator ever? No, it is not.
Do other flight simulators like RoF, Lock-On, etc. have blurred low-fps graphics due to epilepsy problem? No, they do not.

I just hope that the Russian version can be sold in the rest of the world and switched to English... for the moment being, I will stick to old good IL-2:1946.

Maraz

[adonys]

You guys seems to not understand the dimension of the damage:

The UBI/western IL2 CoD will be forever crippled by the antiepilepsy modifications. Luthier stated that the current epilepsy filter will only be removed from the UBI version once all the individual potential epilepsy-triggering sources will be "dealth with" (this already included the individual dealth propellers arc from inside the cockpit (which were removed/set to transparency from both russian/UBI versions) and will include tons of others (needing months of work to be removed/dealt with) like removing part of the flying debris resulted as mopping up airplanes, part of bullet impact flashes and so on).

Actually, even the russian version will be partially crippled, as there are already a lot of individual irreversible modifications already made (before realizing that it's too long of a work, and they've added the quick "epilepsy filter" whole screen shader filter solution) which will most probably remain the same in the russian version even after the epilepsy filter will be removed.

I've already bought the russian version of the game, and I will cancel my IL2 CoD Collector's Edition pre-order from UBI.

[Meek]

So, basically, it's a filter that emulates a shitty LCD screen (pixel can't go black to white quickly, or vice versa), it's non-optional, deteriorates performance and makes SLI/CrossFire non-compatible.

Unless the "shitty LCD" effect is part of the game's visual design, it can **** right off. Now, I'm no historical expert, but I'm pretty sure WW2 didn't look like it was being viewed on a laptop from the 90s, thus, the filter can do the latter (**** right off).

Game is broken, won't be pre-ordering.

[Wynthorpe]

This topic is going to give me a seizure! lol.... Seriously though, bad move on all parties parts.

[Gamekeeper]

Our game did cause wide-scale epilepsy failures when tested. Propellers, muzzle flashes, smoke puffs, explosions, falling bombs, flying or taxiing between buildings, sun shining through canopy framework, etc, they were all causing potentially seizure-inducing flashes.

This isn't the first game to be affected by this form of filtering, Ubisoft are one of the early adopters of a system used throughout broadcasting and spreading through the gamig industry.

Ubisoft is Screening Video Games for Epilepsy (http://spong.com/article/15691/Ubisoft-is-Screening-Video-Games-for-Epilepsy)

According to the above article Ubisoft is using the Harding flash and pattern analyser (http://www.hardingfpa.com/) to conduct testing.

The HardingFPA video game systems are designed to analyse live video game play direct from the game platform (console, PC, or hand-held device) to verify compliance with the various Proprietary Guidelines (provided by the console manufacturers) that safeguard and protect photosensitive players and onlookers from imagery induced epileptic seizures. Video Games of all types have been known to contain the harmful image sequences that have been shown to trigger Photosensitive Epileptic seizures. HardingFPA systems can be applied at any point in the development process - allowing developers, publishers and console manufacturers to use it in-house to provide immediate answers on image safety and to ensure that their games are safe to play. The HardingFPA range of systems offer interfaces to a wide range of Game platforms based on HDMI, analogue component, S-Video and Composite signals and can also analyse game play captured to file.

Harding Games Analysis (http://www.hardingfpa.com/products/analysis-games/)

After tweaking we don't yet know to what degree video will be degraded we can only hope that the dev team look into options like turning filters off, though this seems unlikely for the international version, past experience shows that the devs do work hard to keep us satisfied we should be patient and see what happens in the weeks ahead. Tantrums and threats resolve nothing.

[Plt Off JRB Meaker]

I have wasted too much time over the release of this game,I'm cancelling my pre order.

I wanted the game that had been shown to us in countless dev diary developments over the years,not a dumbed down version,thanks UBI for nothing.

What a great business decision to implement a filter to blank out all the great work that Oleg and his team have worked for.

Now I can see why Oleg wants out from the Sim world,if it's going in this direction one see why,it's perfectly clear.

[mazex]

For heavens sake, to everyone running around like their hair is on fire... Both Ubisoft and Sony and a number of other publishers has done this for all their titles for the last three years, without implementing a post process filter which Ilya has admitted was their emergency hot fix as they have had some communication problem between 1C and Ubisoft? If all other titles have done it without loosing fps by adding a post process filter I'm sure that MG can do it too. Assassins Creed : Brotherhood sure has passed the same tests, and does anyone think it looks "bleak" and not having those "bling" effects that everyone think has to go? Does it have bad FPS? Does any of the other Sony or Ubisoft titles look like they are "watered out" and stutter? Wipeout HD was postponed by Sony in 2008 to implement the stuff needed to pass the epilepsy tests WITHOUT adding a last resort filter on all the frames like MG has done now? Does anyone think that Assassins Creed : Brotherhood lost 10 by an implementation like this? Ilya has admitted that it was an ugly fix and they are working on doing it the proper way...

So can't everyone just calm down for one time and stop running around threatening to cancel your pre orders? They will fix this - be sure.

[adonys]

Do you understand that the problem it is NOT the current epilepsy filter, which will eventually be removed and (eventually) have some FPS restored?

The problem is what they will have to do in order to remove that filter, and meet the epilepsy-prevention requirements.

Do you want to play IL2 CoD sim without seeing your propeller's arc from inside the cockpit? Do you want to see from external view the propeller arcs as a translucid circle? Do you want to have (parts) of the flying debris left behind by the airplane you're mopping up removed?

I do not want that, sorry. If so, I can turn back and play 1942 Pacific Air War.

[mazex]

Do you understand that the problem it is NOT the current epilepsy filter, which will eventually be removed and (eventually) have some FPS restored?

The problem is what they will have to do in order to remove that filter, and meet the epilepsy-prevention requirements.

Do you want to play IL2 CoD sim without seeing your propeller's arc from inside the cockpit? Do you want to see from external view the propeller arcs as a translucid circle? Do you want to have (parts) of the flying debris left behind by the airplane you're mopping up removed?

I do not want that, sorry. If so, I can turn back and play 1942 Pacific Air War.

Not seeing much of the prop is fine as I don't see that IRL either. Debris is naturally an immersion booster, but are we really sure it has to go away to comply with the rules? There are so few hard facts and so much speculation here that it must be some kind of a record. Scientists trying to understand mass psychosis really should have a look here. Add a minor comment in the Russian forums or some late night youtube comments that get bablefish translated and boom. It's like nitroglycerine :)

[Shrike_UK]

sureley this should be an option for graphics cards to have, plenty of options for filters on them already, 1 more couldnt hurt, plus, if its handles by a sub OS process (driver based as graphics cards are) then it will be more efficient than software based solutions. Also this will be more financial viable because you dont pass the cost of developing this onto every single game developer, some of which are finding it hard enough to afford to produce games as it is.

[II/JG54_Zent]

i am cancelling my preorder NOW. Get this right UBIshit or get lost. Very sorry for MG.
If a non castrated version ever comes out i ll buy.

[mazex]

sureley this should be an option for graphics cards to have, plenty of options for filters on them already, 1 more couldnt hurt, plus, if its handles by a sub OS process (driver based as graphics cards are) then it will be more efficient than software based solutions. Also this will be more financial viable because you dont pass the cost of developing this onto every single game developer, some of which are finding it hard enough to afford to produce games as it is.

That sounds like a good idea. I guess that it would work for adding a "gradual change from dark to light", but for effects like the "repetetive" flicker effect caused by a prop "disc" I guess that it would be hard to have low level filtering?

Still, making it optional must be the way to solve it - even though I appreciate that the option will be there it should be possible to disable it for the ones that don't care (which for sure is a large majority). Outside the US I don't see how anyone could sue Ubisoft if the option is in the config file with a warning on startup that says the filter is off at your own risk...

[Sutts]

That sounds like a good idea. I guess that it would work for adding a "gradual change from dark to light", but for effects like the "repetetive" flicker effect caused by a prop "disc" I guess that it would be hard to have low level filtering?

Still, making it optional must be the way to solve it - even though I appreciate that the option will be there it should be possible to disable it for the ones that don't care (which for sure is a large majority). Outside the US I don't see how anyone could sue Ubisoft if the option is in the config file with a warning on startup that says the filter is off at your own risk...

A setting (or several settings) in the registry would make it even harder to set "by mistake" or in a moment of distraction. I'm sure a court would agree that such modifications should be classed as hacking and are a very deliberate action - i.e. the person is accepting the risks.

If an initial warning splash screen was added too then I think Ubi would be very safe....and we'd all be very happy.

[T}{OR]

That sounds like a good idea. I guess that it would work for adding a "gradual change from dark to light", but for effects like the "repetetive" flicker effect caused by a prop "disc" I guess that it would be hard to have low level filtering?

Still, making it optional must be the way to solve it - even though I appreciate that the option will be there it should be possible to disable it for the ones that don't care (which for sure is a large majority). Outside the US I don't see how anyone could sue Ubisoft if the option is in the config file with a warning on startup that says the filter is off at your own risk...

Agreed.

IMO this is an extremely bad way to handle it, and most of us here realize it. In my view, GPU manufacturers should enable this safety on a drivers level - and make it an optional feature. If they can do stereoscopic 3D glasses which are way more dangerous than a ordinary game why cannot this be done? Instead we get castrated games for the sake of minority.

Just to be clear - I am in no way undermining the seriousness of an epileptic seizure. This is a very serious matter. But when it affects the majority, it becomes even more serious.

Why this lack of communication happened between UBI and MG we will probably never know. If those rules are in place, the game should have been designed from the start to deal with an epileptic seizure prevention. For this I blame MG equally as I do UbiSoft. The only bright side in all this is Ilya's confession and informing us all about it. We could have been left in the dark about it all and kept wondering why the game runs like crap. Though TBH, I still think there is more to it than just a Filter.

Only if this Filter is removed / made optional, I will purchase the game. Until then, there are plenty of other quality sims out there to keep me busy.

[Plt Off JRB Meaker]

Yes totally agree with the above,I did'nt wait all these years after seeing all those superb developer vids and screenshots to then pay for something that is less than comparable to it.

I too will only purchase this if the filter is removed or made optional,Rise Of Flight is a truly superb combat flight sim and this will keep me occupied.

What makes me really angry about this is the way we have been totally mislead,there has been no mention of such a filter in all the hype that 1C and UBI have been advertising,only in the past 24 hours had I heard about this.

So I am glad I have heard the news now,despite it being bad,I have now just in time been able to cancel my preorder and wait over the oncoming months to see what will transpire from this.

I do hope they can fix this because it will for sure be a great sim once it is sorted out,but until such time my money will be staying put in my wallet.

Good luck guys

[Herra Tohtori]

Realistic depiction of certain effects should contain fast high contrast changes.

Making the flicker go away will make the effect worse, if said flicker exists in reality.

This is my worry, not the temporary bad frame rates. Temporary frame rate issues is something that many games suffer from upon release and are often fixed in quick schedule, but ruining effects intentionally because of an artificial problem just makes me heartbroken and despondent.

Surely the development team wishes to deliver the best possible product to the customers, but this title is just encountering so much trouble, I just wish they would get a break already and be allowed to release what they wish.


If Luthier et al can confirm that the visual appearance and quality of all the effects in the game will not be damaged by the process of anti-epileptic measures, then I have no problem with it.

If, like I suspect, said measures irreparably damage the effects from what the team originally wanted them to look like, then there's a real problem with not allowing people to experience the effects in their original form.

In that case, I would want an optional original effect pack that returns the effects to full glory. No one would be able to claim I did this unknowingly, even if I suddenly started suffering from PSE.


I can see one obvious solution to the problem - an original effect patch released in Russia that just so happens to work on the International version as well. How that could be executed is a different matter altogether.

Assuming that the game retains one of its key elements (the ability for users to modify it*), then it's only a matter of time before the effects are fixed by the community itself**. I would, however, prefer a solution from the developer team directly.


*I've been somewhat worried about this. The trend is for games to not allow extensive modifications, but I wish CoD does because that's essentially what has kept IL-2 alive for such a long time. But that is a concern for a different discussion...

** ...and assuming that the effects are adjustable by media changes such as textures or ini files rather than locked in code; code changes of the executable and dynamic link library extensions would be impossible unless the dev team releases the source code, which I seriously can't see happening.

[Shrike_UK]

in addition to the last comment/suggestion i made, i'll add, that i do from my limited knowledge of Hardware programming beleive its possible for the GPU manufacturers to add this. It would be cheaper in every aspect for everyone to implement rather than to pass the buck onto software development houses.

V-Sync is already in all games, as we know to reduce visual artifact, (they will also flicker), and as we all know being gamers, we know that this slows the frames produced to match the GPU cycle for displaying frames. its very likeley in order to make the said epilespy filter that V-Sync is either forced on, or that the epilepsy filter will be comparing possible more Frames than it needs to. This is also another reason why Epi filter should be on the GPU because it would run faster there than in software.
(unwittingly i thought of a test for people who have the game already with Epi filter, to lower CPU usage by enabling V-Sync to see if it makes a difference.)

UBI are just barking up the wrong tree here. I can guess why they are enforcing this on software rather than hardware manufacturers tho. And thats because UBI sell primarily CONSOLE games. Harware cannot change on those except for a total recall, which would cost billions for all the consoles from every manufacturer ever created. As we have heard, PS3, XBOX it has been said before are likely to be the last consoles ever produced as they cost too much to produce in R&D etc...

[Shrike_UK]

The filter sits on top of the game's graphics wrapper. It saves a previous frame, and then compares it pixel-by-pixel to the new frame. When two pixels are found with a high degree of contrast between them, the new pixel is toned down to make the change less drastic.

This causes a visual effect somewhere between bloom and motion-blur that removes virtually all instances of high-contrast flashes.

However this pixel-by-pixel frame analysis and modification takes up additional resources, it in fact delays the showing of each new frame until each pixel of it checked, and therefore the filter is causing deteriorated performance that is especially notable on lower-end machines.


This is a prime reason why UBI should be adressing hardware manufacturers rather than game developers on this filterring? Would you agree Luthier? Bear in mind, game engine FPS may be sending (i dont know but guessing) 250+ FPS to the graphics cars, for each frame to be processed takes up a lot of CPU power, however, for the GPU to do the same would be less due to there being less frames to process. Granted the CPU on a GPU has a lower clock speed than a General CPU, but the graphics GPU is doing considerably less, depending of course on the nature of the game.

I would like to see this as an option on Graphics cards to switch this filter on for people with epilepsy and let them play, but, an option only so it doesnt interfere with people with no epilepsy. Bear in mind also, as its a graphics card option, it will then work across the board for all applications :) so even the windows in OS and web browsing would be Epilepsy safe ;)

[LoBiSoMeM]

Crysis 2 will have "FPS drop" due to "epilepsy filter"?

Gimme a break...

Please 1C: get a shotgun and fire in your own foot!

[Herra Tohtori]

V-Sync is already in all games, as we know to reduce visual artifact, (they will also flicker)


Vertical synchronization prevents frame tearing. That means, it synchronizes the frame rate of the game to the frame rates that the display is compatible with.

If the game FPS is out of synch with the display, it is possible for the frame to change while it is drawing onto the screen, causing horizontal tearing to appear as the frame switches on the next, but previous frame is still displayed on the top of the screen while next frame is already rendered and sent to the display to render for the bottom half of the image.

For example, a display with vertical frequency of 60 Hz will be able to smoothly show image stream at 60, 30, 20, 15, 12, 10, 5, 4, 3, 2 and 1 frames per second without tearing up the frames, because the changes of the frames are in synch with the speed at which the display itself can switch between frames (or, in mathematical terms, these frame rates are factors of 60)


As a result, if your computer cannot achieve static frame rates of 60 - VSync will reduce frame rates to 30 to prevent tearing up the frames, technically anyway.

If your computer can't run at 30 FPS, VSync drops frame rate to next even number that fits into the VFreq of the monitor, in this case 20 FPS, etc.

Incidentally, this is why I would want monitors to support frame rates up to 120 FPS. Even if you wouldn't necessarily notice difference during smooth gameplay, you could have a wider range of applicable frame rates without frame tearing because the factors for 120 are {1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, 12, 15, 20, 24, 30, 40, 60, 120}.

For example, if your computer couldn't quite render up to 60 FPS, it wouldn't drop all the way to 30, but to 40 FPS instead. Similarly if frame rates were just below 30, they would drop to 24 FPS instead of 20.



Now, this issue is somewhat similar in the sense that, ironically, low frame rate will cause more radical changes between frames, which will...

...wait for it...


...cause more flickering.

Which is what is supposed to be prevented by the anti-epilepsy measures.


So, yeah, way to go. I bet the low frame rates and especially the stuttering is much more aggravating to even the most photosensitive epileptics than a smooth frame rate with the original effects.

'Cause, you know, low stuttering frame rates essentially turn the whole GAME into flickering mess instead of individual effects.

[mazex]

As we have heard, PS3, XBOX it has been said before are likely to be the last consoles ever produced as they cost too much to produce in R&D etc...

Well, there is already a lot of speculation about the release date for the PS4 (but before 2014 seems unlikely), and Sony has the same anti-epilepsy screening policy for the PS3 so it's a safe bet that they will have that for the PS4 too. I have heard very few complaint about PS3 games being dull and nerfed due to this - mainly because we never hear about it as all the developers knows about it and design their games according to Sony's anti epilepsy guidelines which as I understand it are the same as the ones Ubisoft use? On the PS3 there is no option to turn off anti epilepsy features as all games are built from scratch with those requirements.

[Shrike_UK]

Now, this issue is somewhat similar in the sense that, ironically, low frame rate will cause more radical changes between frames, which will...

...wait for it...


...cause more flickering.

Which is what is supposed to be prevented by the anti-epilepsy measures.

Totally agree, the human eye can register what? 22 milliseconds? which is
a LOT of frames. I dont think an Anti-epilepsy filter will work until we have computers powerful enough to process imagery frame by frame faster than the naked eye can read it.

Its daft of UBI Soft to demand this on a game developer. They are just going to blame the Epi filter not working as a result of the game developers incompetance when they next go to court over anything similar. I think they could do with not being so stupid and investing in better (rather than cheaper) lawyers.

[TheEditor]

So to sum it all up...

On/off switch check...
then disclaimer check...

Wow that was easy, now MAKE IT HAPPEN!

[mazex]

Another thing that comes to mind...

In December they changed the software used for train scheduling in southern Sweden. The same day there was extreme cold and a lot of snow that continued for two weeks... At the same time they had serious optimisation problems with the software (which I know from an inside source). Guess what they blamed? And then the snow disappeared while they had not fixed the software issues. Guess if there where any change to the scheduling problems? They have still not fixed them...

[M1sF1rE]

I have a solution. How about a big warning on the package about epilepsy inducing graphics?

I guess I'll put off my purchase until this has been sorted out. WOP is getting a mission editor soon, so that will have to do for now.

[tintifaxl]

So to sum it all up...

On/off switch check...
then disclaimer check...

Wow that was easy, now MAKE IT HAPPEN!

+1

[ATAG_Doc]

Hi everyone,

The team could never in a million years imagine that a post on a Russian-language forum would so quickly make the rounds and spread around the internet.

The information there is not accurate, especially the placing of the blame on Ubisoft.

I feel that I need to describe this in more detail.

Our game did cause wide-scale epilepsy failures when tested. Propellers, muzzle flashes, smoke puffs, explosions, falling bombs, flying or taxiing between buildings, sun shining through canopy framework, etc, they were all causing potentially seizure-inducing flashes.

We worked hard to address all these issues individually, but since a flight sim is all about fast-moving large objects, there were just too many instances of things causing high-contrast flashes.

So, as we were running out of time, WE decided to implement this epilepsy filter as a stop-gap measure.

The filter sits on top of the game's graphics wrapper. It saves a previous frame, and then compares it pixel-by-pixel to the new frame. When two pixels are found with a high degree of contrast between them, the new pixel is toned down to make the change less drastic.

This causes a visual effect somewhere between bloom and motion-blur that removes virtually all instances of high-contrast flashes.

However this pixel-by-pixel frame analysis and modification takes up additional resources, it in fact delays the showing of each new frame until each pixel of it checked, and therefore the filter is causing deteriorated performance that is especially notable on lower-end machines.

We are continuing to work to optimize the game and to increase its framerate. Ubisoft has been very patient and understanding with us throughout the entire process, and we are continuing to work with them very closely to find the best solution to epilepsy issues.

In summary, I want to stress that it is OUR code and OUR game engine that is causing performance issues. And it US who has to make it better, and that's exactly what we pledge to do.

There are places where the food is so hot and spicy that they require you to actually sign a release and indemnify them from any damages caused from you eating it*:
*indemnify transitive verb
1: to secure against hurt, loss, or damage
2: to make compensation to for incurred hurt, loss, or damage


And also have a "hold harmless**" clause.
**Provision in an agreement under which one or both parties agree not to hold the other party responsible for any loss, damage, or legal liability. In effect, this clause indemnifies the parties on a unilateral or reciprocal basis (as the case may be). See also indemnity clause.

Also you could "Require binding arbitration" in the event of any legal matters resulting from use of your product. You could do many things to cover your butt so we can purchase the fully functional version. Set minimum age requirements for a full unlocked versions and jack up the price to say $150 per copy for the trouble.

You can still buy a Toyota even after all the accelerator pedal problems and yet not one shred of evidence was found that supported the theory that Toyota had anything to do with it. Turns out after all this time they find that it is most likely the root cause is the floor mats the OWNERS installed caused it.

Just because someone may try to hold someone legally accountable for their own actions doesn't necessarily mean that all of these products will disappear from the public. Good homework and solid legal agreements as a condition of purchase goes a long way to protect you from others that have harm come to them from using your product.

Its the world we live in. We need to cull some lawyers. But anyone can cut themselves on one of your CD's/DVD's or a paper cut your instruction book or a cut from a box. I can see it now. Someone using scissors to open IL2 CoD and they cut their finger off. They will come after you.

The truth is no one needs any valid reason to take anyone to court. You can have a bad hair day and someone take offense to it and start legal action. There is no filter to filter out what can and what cannot go to court. You can find yourself in there for anything.

Just throwing it out there.