Calculating Shooting Deflection

[mikeklim]

All,

Very late to the party, but I recently picked this up. I've gone through the tutorials and unlocked realistic difficulty. I've done a search here but I can't seem to find exactly how to properly calculate shooting deflection.

I generally know that I want shoot where the opponent's plane will be, not where he is, but I still find myself missing quite a bit. Is is generally a rule of the closer the better, i.e., make your target as big as possible in your gun sight? Is there some type of quick mental judgement using the site?

Thanks for any tips or referrals to other threads.

[Robotic Pope]

I use an abacus :P

Seriously, it takes practice. With expierence you kinda just know how far to lead. The hurricane is a good plane to use to practice deflection shots thanks to all that tracer.

Another tip is not to get too close behind your target if you only have wing mounted guns. You don't want your bullets passing the target before they have converged on your crosshairs. I forget the exact distance that the convergance is set at in this game though. I'm sure someone else knows.

[Korsakov829]

Best to get as close as possible, maybe 0.10km away. At that distance you don't really need to calculate deflection.

[bobbysocks]

you are going to run into 2 different problems here depending on the ac you are flying. if you use an ac with fuselage mounted guns its a little easier because its a "straight" shot so to speak. what you are shooting at is directly infront of you and you ONLY ( i say laughing) have to discover the deflection. so might be wiser to begin with one of those. 109 G6 is excellant so is a La 7. when you get into ac with wing mounted guns now you have factor in convergence like mr. pope said. the paths of the rounds from each wing will cross at a specific distance...kinda forming and X pattern. if you can place the ac you are after at the center of that X...then figure the deflection...you see it gets more complicated. likewise, if the convergence point is 200 meters (i believe this is true) and you are shooting at a plane 500 meters away...the bullets on both paths will go wide of their target. the faster the ac the more deflection you have to give. we got into a all 163 battle the other night and it was hard as hell to score a hit...the planes were just too darn fast. practice, practice, practice. the training missions are great for this. just pick a foe and attack from different angles and speeds. good luck.

[dkwookie]

In arcade and realistic you have a deflection guide in the HUD. This is the roving crosshair that tracks the AC you have target lock on. This is meant to give you your deflection target to shoot at but the problem is it's a bit off. If you aim your guns at this deflection target odds are you will miss.
What it is good for is guaging the target speed. I use that for guessing speed and use the target info onscreen for range then use an initial bust of fire to get the deflection zoned. I usually aim a plane and a half length ahead of the deflection crosshair then adjust visually using the first short burst to zone in.

After lots of practice it becomes second nature and before you realize it you will stop using the deflection guide and your first burst will be more accurate. If you head to sim mode where there is no HUD you will be adjusting your shots instinctively

[Robotic Pope]

In arcade and realistic you have a deflection guide in the HUD. This is the roving crosshair that tracks the AC you have target lock on. This is meant to give you your deflection target to shoot at but the problem is it's a bit off. If you aim your guns at this deflection target odds are you will miss.
What it is good for is guaging the target speed. I use that for guessing speed and use the target info onscreen for range then use an initial bust of fire to get the deflection zoned. I usually aim a plane and a half length ahead of the deflection crosshair then adjust visually using the first short burst to zone in.

After lots of practice it becomes second nature and before you realize it you will stop using the deflection guide and your first burst will be more accurate. If you head to sim mode where there is no HUD you will be adjusting your shots instinctively

Its only in arcade that you get the deflection hinter. This is just useless to practice deflection in arcade if you fly in realistic and sim as the deflection you need in arcade is huge and unrealistic due to the supersonic speeds the planes fly at.

Proper deflection shooting is knowing were and when to fire. This doesn't happen in arcade because everybody is firing non stop trigger spamming with unlimited ammo. This isn't calculation, this is fire & sweep.

If you really want to get good at deflection shooting, do training on realistic or sim with limited ammo.

[dkwookie]

Its only in arcade that you get the deflection hinter. This is just useless to practice deflection in arcade if you fly in realistic and sim as the deflection you need in arcade is huge and unrealistic due to the supersonic speeds the planes fly at.

Proper deflection shooting is knowing were and when to fire. This doesn't happen in arcade because everybody is firing non stop trigger spamming with unlimited ammo. This isn't calculation, this is fire & sweep.

If you really want to get good at deflection shooting, do training on realistic or sim with limited ammo.

Well some of the finest flyers on PS3 started in Arcade and learned the deflection angles there and took those skills onto Realistic and Sim where they picked up the angles very quickly so it cant be all fire & sweep. Actually the ammount of damage the planes take in Arcade means you need to keep adjusting your firing angles which makes it a good place to start.

[Robotic Pope]

Well some of the finest flyers on PS3 started in Arcade and learned the deflection angles there and took those skills onto Realistic and Sim where they picked up the angles very quickly so it cant be all fire & sweep. Actually the ammount of damage the planes take in Arcade means you need to keep adjusting your firing angles which makes it a good place to start.

a.k.a. fire & sweep.

I'm talking about the type of deflection shooting skill you need in Boom & zoom type high speed attacks were the target is flying across your path and you get one split second chance to get the hits before you pass him by. And you only have a few seconds worth of ammo that you want to last multiple booms. That is were you need real deflection skill and practiced calculation of speed and distance.

[dkwookie]

a.k.a. fire & sweep.

I'm talking about the type of deflection shooting skill you need in Boom & zoom type high speed attacks were the target is flying across your path and you get one split second chance to get the hits before you pass him by. And you only have a few seconds worth of ammo that you want to last multiple booms. That is were you need real deflection skill and practiced calculation of speed and distance.

I didn't realize the topic was related to BNZ deflection. But even then what I said still holds true that spending time in arcade or realistic with the guide (it is there in realistic too btw) will help you learn the angles, even BNZ angles. The speeds involved will mean adjusting to the slower speed in realistic but it only takes a couple of games to get used to that.

Anyway I am not arguing about game modes, only saying that if I was a new player who wanted to figure this stuff out I would start in arcade or realistic and use the guide reticle to get used to the angles

[SEE]

Firstly, any game lag will affect your deflection and there is little you can do about that. Secondly, firing whilst your plane is climbing ot diving, will affect your ordinance trajectory and will fire in an arc. If you are unsure, aim ahead and hold steady whilst your opponent flies into your guns. Short burts with guns that have significan recoil is better than long prolonged burts.

Unfortunately, there is no precise information regards the convergence of wing mounted guns in BOP. The default in IL2 (from which the flight modelling was taken) is 500m which is pretty high.

Distance of an ac in your sights is determined by the size of the ac in your sight ring. A Bf109 that is wing tip to wing tip in the circular sights of all UK fighters is approx. 100ft away. If the BF109 is wingtip to wingtip from the centre of your gunsights to the outer circle it is then approx. 200ft away. This was used by the pilot to gauge the deflection needed and the optimum firing point for the convergence of his guns. During the Battle of Britain, convergence was set to 200ft. A Heinkell that was wingtip to wingtip in his sight was 200ft away as it had approx. twice the wingspan of a BF109. Deflection is one of the most important skills but also relies on knowing the distance of enemy ac and the convergence of hs guns for maximum effect.

[Robotic Pope]

I didn't realize the topic was related to BNZ deflection. But even then what I said still holds true that spending time in arcade or realistic with the guide (it is there in realistic too btw) will help you learn the angles, even BNZ angles. The speeds involved will mean adjusting to the slower speed in realistic but it only takes a couple of games to get used to that.

Anyway I am not arguing about game modes, only saying that if I was a new player who wanted to figure this stuff out I would start in arcade or realistic and use the guide reticle to get used to the angles

There is no deflection guide in realistic, its only in arcade and its always wrong.

[dkwookie]

I can't be bothered arguing about this whole thing. I will bow to your superior knowledge on this. Sim mode elitism has been a bug bear since I joined here a year ago and life is too short. I only wanted to add another point of view that may have helped the OP
:confused:

[bobbysocks]

you are talking 2 different game systems too. it may be in one system and not the other. but, pope, are you sure there is no pipper in real?? i could have sworn i saw one last night when i played? i know i saw one recently and i havent been in arcade in ages. i just never use the thing because its not that accurate.

dk the only reason i dont play arcade is in xbox there is too much difference between it and the other 2 modes. its harder for me to adjust. i did get in one several weeks ago and had one hell of a time getting a shot. real and sim have simular flight characteristics. so the transition is easier...for me at least it is.

[Davedog74]

hello mikeklim,all really down to practice,if your enjoying arcade then practice in that mode,i can understand what dk is saying,you need a few bullets in arcade to down a plane.but as the guys said the aim thingy is out,
realistic and sim id say small bursts, closer the better,under 900 ft(with a spit)if your stuck behind aim in the middle of the wings so bullets hit cockpit and wingtips
we need to know what crates you fly,they are all different,there are a few players on the dark side(109s) that could tell you that side of things

[dkwookie]

In my original post on this thread I said the guide is off and if you aim at the guide you will probably miss. I said its useful to gauge target speed. If your target is mid to long range you can use it to line up a long range hit. Not much use in Arcade but sometimes a kill in Realistic. I learnt how to play BoP in Arcade and moved up to Realistic and Sim. All the tactics and technique I use in Realistic and Sim were picked up from Arcade. The biggest hurdle (and difference) when switching to Realistic is not the deflection but the plane handling/stalling

[Robotic Pope]

In my original post on this thread I said the guide is off and if you aim at the guide you will probably miss. I said its useful to gauge target speed. If your target is mid to long range you can use it to line up a long range hit. Not much use in Arcade but sometimes a kill in Realistic. I learnt how to play BoP in Arcade and moved up to Realistic and Sim. All the tactics and technique I use in Realistic and Sim were picked up from Arcade. The biggest hurdle (and difference) when switching to Realistic is not the deflection but the plane handling/stalling

Its not difficulty mode. Its unlimited ammo that makes skilled deflection shooting unneeded. Since arcade is imposible to play without unlimited ammo that is where my arguement comes from.

Bobby, I was 99.9% certain that there is no deflection guide in realistic, Someone please tell me i'm not crazy.:confused:

I20I30+IC P0P3 15 1337 !! ;)

[mikeklim]

Thanks guys, for the tips. Another related question (man, do I feel like a noob):

Within cockpit view, the range that's listed under my gun sight says 100 yards. Does that mean bullet convergence is 100 yards, or does it mean that if my target is wingtip to wingtip within my sight, he's 100 yards away?

I suspect it's the latter, as when he fills my site wingtip to wingtip, his range displays at roughly 100 yards (.10 km?). Am I right on this?

[SEE]

Yes, its distance not convergence! RAF sights were set to 100yds distance. USAF, USSR and Japanese ac gunsights are slightly different.

[mikeklim]

Yes, its distance not convergence! RAF sights were set to 100yds distance. USAF, USSR and Japanese ac gunsights are slightly different.

Thanks, that's what I thought. I'm also reminded of your earlier post where you said default convergence isn't really known in BOP. Isn't that an important detail to leave out by the makers?

Meaning, I can gauge the lead of my target by using my sight, but doesn't it help to know convergence distance, particularly if targeting smaller targets on the ground, for example? Or is that one of the reasons why practice makes perfect? :)

[Rambo Rich 360]

Just for the record, there is no deflection guide on Realistic mode. Just red or green brackets around the planes that show whether a player is an enemy or friendly, player name, plane type and distance to target.

[dkwookie]

I applogise I could have sworn the guide was there on realistic. Ignore everything I said in the thread. Been playing the game for 15 months and can't even tell if a floating crosshair in front of me I deserve booming and zooming with a 163 or tailgunning by an IL!

[SEE]

Thanks, that's what I thought. I'm also reminded of your earlier post where you said default convergence isn't really known in BOP. Isn't that an important detail to leave out by the makers?

Meaning, I can gauge the lead of my target by using my sight, but doesn't it help to know convergence distance, particularly if targeting smaller targets on the ground, for example? Or is that one of the reasons why practice makes perfect? :)

The FM for BOP is dumbed down from IL1946 and integrated to the graphics engine developed by Gaigin. All I can tell you is that the default in IL1946 is 500m but the player can of course alter that. It doessn't really matter that the convergence isn't stated since .303 machine guns have exactly the same damage ability as cannons at whatever range you fire them in BOP, in reality .303 Machine guns were pretty useless at anything over 250ft away. Just practice and get a feel for what works best, as I said in an ealier post, game lag (even slight levels) will mean you will have to adjust your deflection angle!

[hurricane]

Just for the record, there is no deflection guide on Realistic mode. Just red or green brackets around the planes that show whether a player is an enemy or friendly, player name, plane type and distance to target.

that doesn't mean your not crazy popey.;)

[bobbysocks]

well, it might depend on which view you use. i generally use virtual cockpit and there is a round pipper in real. played today and payed attention to it. now in other views there may not be one.

[Davedog74]

well, it might depend on which view you use. i generally use virtual cockpit and there is a round pipper in real. played today and payed attention to it. now in other views there may not be one.
do u mean the vector indicator ?that is the key to getting quicker killis,if you are having to use rudder to keep the bore sight where you think the shot is- you will wobble
if you can get the vector sight settled where you think the deflection is and then line up bore sight and fire,you will get cleaner kills

[Robotic Pope]

do u mean the vector indicator ?that is the key to getting quicker killis,if you are having to use rudder to keep the bore sight where you think the shot is- you will wobble
if you can get the vector sight settled where you think the deflection is and then line up bore sight and fire,you will get cleaner kills

Not sure I understand you. Is that the thing that shows you your true heading so you can gauge your angle of attack? I don't really use that while dogfighting. Its usefull when flying very slowly or at high altitude. The only times I use that indicator in combat is in head to head attacks, I like to use a lot of rudder so my plane is crabing along so I can shoot at the plane and at the same time see that i'm not flying straight into it. I don't believe it can help you get more or easier kills though.

[Davedog74]

Not sure I understand you. Is that the thing that shows you your true heading so you can gauge your angle of attack?

yes thats the one pope

[wakespeak]

Use the Training area in Realistic mode so that you can see distances. The Mustang and Spit I would say have convergences set around 750 ft or around 250m. The convergence on the Thunderbolt seems a bit farther out. 500 meters sounds a bit far (~1500 ft).

You can tag an opponent at greater distances to kill maneuvering and close to around the convergence point to finish him off.

Wing mounted guns at high deflection provide a somewhat tricky spread because of the convergence pattern. However the planes with fuselage mounted guns are typically slow firing cannon or just one or two mg's. You can't spray and pray.

The bf 109 G-6 has wing mounted cannons and fuselage mounted cannon/MG's which makes it very potent as being a bit of a mix. The LA-5 is easiest to fly to full potential (can't stall it on full sensitivity at full throttle - just yank and bank) and has cowl mounted twin 20 mm cannon.

The American 50 cal ballistics are great in terms of straight lines without arcing down. The Russian cannons will arc down quickly in a deflection scenario.

All these variables make the game interesting and fun.

[bobbysocks]

do u mean the vector indicator ?that is the key to getting quicker killis,if you are having to use rudder to keep the bore sight where you think the shot is- you will wobble
if you can get the vector sight settled where you think the deflection is and then line up bore sight and fire,you will get cleaner kills

i dont know what its called but for the k14 it was called a pipper. in virtual cockpit (Xbox in all 3 modes) you have basically an artificial horizon guage....2 vertical lines set in + or - degrees connected with a horizonal at "0" or level flight. this guage remains consistent in relation to the ground. in the middle of it is a large circle with a dot in it...which shows AoA and straight ahead direction. then there is a smaller floating circle...pipper which looks like it compensates for pos or neg Gs. the B!t<# is they are hard to see against the clouds or sky so i really cant tell if the pipper is off or by how much. it would be better if you could set the contrast on that...but anyways. thats what i am talking about. i dont remember seeing a pipper on the gunsite in the regular cockpit mode.

[Robotic Pope]

i dont know what its called but for the k14 it was called a pipper. in virtual cockpit (Xbox in all 3 modes) you have basically an artificial horizon guage....2 vertical lines set in + or - degrees connected with a horizonal at "0" or level flight. this guage remains consistent in relation to the ground. in the middle of it is a large circle with a dot in it...which shows AoA and straight ahead direction. then there is a smaller floating circle...pipper which looks like it compensates for pos or neg Gs. the B!t<# is they are hard to see against the clouds or sky so i really cant tell if the pipper is off or by how much. it would be better if you could set the contrast on that...but anyways. thats what i am talking about. i dont remember seeing a pipper on the gunsite in the regular cockpit mode.

Yes its a velocity vector symbol. It tells you the path the plane is flying in. A gun pipper looks simarlar but is different, it uses a targeting computer to predict the path of the bullets. They usually move around the HUD pretty much together, but if your angle of attack goes up your Vector symbol drops so you can see your real degree of climb/decent but the gun pipper would stay around the middle or even move up the HUD if you were decending.

I don't think radar gun pippers existed in WWII. I belive the F86 Sabre was the one of the first to have one.

[bobbysocks]

the k14 which came later in the war was a computing gunsite with a pipper. if you were following 190 you would set it for the 190 ( wingspan ). then turn another dial making the circle smaller until the e/a wingtips were just touching the circle....this calculated the distance. once the gyro driven pipper was on target...pull the trigger. with this set up you didnt have to lead.....but you have to be in a turning or running battle dial it all in. it did prove pretty effective.