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View Full Version : Wow, just wow. NO Demonesses in my game.


ckdamascus
10-20-2010, 02:18 AM
I don't usually bother to check for Demonesses since they are almost always there. Yet in this nearly perfect game I have, I just came to the horrific realization that there are NO demonesses.

Well, ok, there are 21 of them IF I can beat the wizard's tower. Tell me there is a conversion process.... :(

That is a LOT of demonesses to sacrifice for.

I am guessing if I bring fairies and such, maybe I can convert them into demonesses? :( Does anyone know?

OR, this means I need to get diplomacy to steal away a lot of Demonesses. Haha!

[edit]
Conversion rate is 450 gold AND trophies for dryads to demonesses.
Lake dryads are around 484 gold and trophies to convert.

Uh, that is about 73828 trophies.

Combine that with the 22500 trophies I need for Demonologists...

That is close to 100,000 trophies.

Sacrificing is starting to look FAR less tedious. Or I am going to have to give up on using one of those units. So much for my super demonic build.

WOW, just WOW.

The EASIEST method for me is to simply get ONE point in Diplomacy. Who would have guessed that the Paladin Mind Tree would be so useful! :)

shqiponja_hayabusa
10-20-2010, 09:25 AM
Ahem....demonesses succ....ahem. What do you need demonesses for anyway. I can't really find any use for them, if you were going for the demon build, they get a 20% damage upgrade, but I think in your 5-demon army they don't deserve the slot. If you are going for the female build then still you are wasting a slot. Forget about them (oh right the teleportation, after that?)

ckdamascus
10-20-2010, 11:54 AM
Ahem....demonesses succ....ahem. What do you need demonesses for anyway. I can't really find any use for them, if you were going for the demon build, they get a 20% damage upgrade, but I think in your 5-demon army they don't deserve the slot. If you are going for the female build then still you are wasting a slot. Forget about them (oh right the teleportation, after that?)

Admittedly, it isn't one of my most powerful projected builds, but it seems like potential fun!

I'm sure you meant to say they bare a striking resemblance to Succubi. :)

I sort of got bored with my Super Orc / Super Goblin build. It was surprisingly strong, but less flexible in doing no-loss since I didn't really have that many disposable tanks. It was oddly a lot like my old Pure Range Build, even if it only had one ranged unit in it. :)

So, I believe Mages are probably still the best choice to field a No-Loss demonic build, as per impy's old demonic run. Paladins can't revive demons. Ancient Phoenix can't revive demons. Only Rune Mages and good old fashioned Resurrection.

My projected build will be
Demon
Demoness
Executioner
Rune Mage
Demonologist

With all the items I have checked out AND a pentagram from Demon, I should achieve 100% critical. However, due to low leadership of the mage, this is nothing impressive. So I need to cast debuffs such as Pygmy, helplessness, or maybe even a mini nuke or another summon every round. Since my team has little ranged power, I need teleport.

I really want demonesses to help me save me from casting the initial teleport, or to pull in a critical enemy. :)

The executioner is waay too slow so demoness sets him up. With Agvares, she should do a little bit more damage.

Rune Mage for revival and summon (plus leadership bonus with Archmage ability for Mage) and Demonologist, same thing, but weaker.

Demons are pretty darn sticky since they have infinite retaliations. With the proper buffs, and enough disposable tanks, I think they can really put on some pain.

Also, I am fairly certain all my summons gain from +critical to demons and my base +criticals, so we are talking about a lot of beefed up effective damage.

The Mage has too low leadership to make a super single stack (without buffs that is), but with enough summons yielding crits, it might make up for that difference!

DGDobrev
10-20-2010, 12:50 PM
As a person who used demonesses on a regular basis, I have to say that they are an extremely useful units. ckdamascus has clearly made a very offensive lineup (adding both demons and executioners in it) and the demonesses with their good initiative fit in perfectly.

Demonesses have 3 distinct qualities - first, they can teleport a stone-skinned Executioners stack directly into the enemy lines, swapping it with a low-defense enemy stack that will easily be butchered by the demons in his own lineup. Second, they can covert a weakened stack to their control for a few turns. Third, they make decent off-tanks (secondary tanks) who take less hits when attacking thanks to their special abilities.

Demonesses are very much a worthwhile addition to any army that tolerates (race relations are a very important concept in all KB games) them without a significant morale penalty. The Girl Power army comes to mind first (Lake Faerie, Tree Faerie, Dryad, Demoness + 1 stack that can resurrect) with a Rune Mage/Demonologist is very solid for the better part of the game, as almost all of them have no retaliation ability and if you add stone skin and target to that combo, you get some rather interesting and easy to win battles :)

SPOILER: Stone skin the rune magi, have the demonesses swap them for a low-defense stack, have the fairies and dryads quickly kill the swapped stack - can be done even in a single round - cast target on the rune magi and simply move the girls to finish off the enemy stacks while they hack at the well protected Rune Magi.

Saiko Kila
10-20-2010, 02:13 PM
Stacks possessed by demonesses can be sacrificed, so it's a free Domination. Ability to swap enemy weaklings with own tanks is very funny and very useful. Also males of all races (including demons and neutrals) can have hard time hitting demonesses. I usually don't keep demonesses as base units, I prefer to summon them, but I used them a lot in KBTL and I rank them still above average.

Hm, I never had problems with availability of demonologists and demonesses (always had many times more than I needed), tough luck it seems.

ckdamascus
10-20-2010, 03:57 PM
Stacks possessed by demonesses can be sacrificed, so it's a free Domination. Ability to swap enemy weaklings with own tanks is very funny and very useful. Also males of all races (including demons and neutrals) can have hard time hitting demonesses. I usually don't keep demonesses as base units, I prefer to summon them, but I used them a lot in KBTL and I rank them still above average.

Hm, I never had problems with availability of demonologists and demonesses (always had many times more than I needed), tough luck it seems.

Yes, inspired by playing as other classes and reading other players combos, I realize that key units help save me mana and rounds of casting spells, even if I do have double cast.

It is rather annoying to revive using phantom or resurrection after a verry expensive Sacrifice spell.

Or, even more annoying to cast Hypnosis (40), then wait next round to Sacrifice that unit (40). I don't even know if I will even have that much mana.

Hopefully, the demonesses will help restore the ranks of demonologists. :)

I'm also verry shocked. First few games in AP I ever played, I had more than enough demonologists and demonesses.

Later on, demonologists were quite rare for me.

Now demonesses are a rarity in this game. Haha. Sort of sad that by the time I get my nice army, there won't be much left to fight. Unless I can find an easy way to beat the wizard's tower and verona capital.

I hope I can simply fight an enemy stack with demonologists, but now that I think about it, they seem pretty rare too. UNLESS I can use diplomacy in the battle in the Wizard's Tower. Anyone know if I can? Because I know there are boatloads of demonologists in that one fight... :)

[edit]
this probably won't work since the game is hardwired to restore your original troops after you leave the tower. :(

Sort of funny how I will now gain a big advantage because I am playing in Impossible. Using diplomacy, 8% of those oversized enemy stacks is faster than ANY other method of procuring those units. :)

DG, thanks for the tips. Unfortunately, while this game has very nice items such as two Dress of the Magess, I don't have any girl power items. :(

But, wow that's a pretty scary combo though, definitely something I want to look forward to in future matches.

My runemages will be sad (-1 morale), but eh. They aren't there as fighters, simply as 30% chance sheepers, revivers, and make more tanks.

By the way, does anyone know how the Archmage Unit's shock is calculated? If it is based on his critical hit... wow. I can hit 100% critical hits with archmages easily. Unfortunately, they are such worthless combat units (ok fine, they can cast magic shield... then what?).

BB Shockwave
10-21-2010, 11:57 PM
In my first Walkthrough of AP, there were only about 120 Gorguls in the game. I had to use Sacrifice (as a Warrior!) to get the rest. IN my current walkthrough... there are NO Gorguls ANYWHERE. Not that I plan to use them, just checked out of curiosity.

Frankly, I wish units of Elven/Demon/Lizardmen races would appear more often in other islands too. I never have trouble finding humans, orcs or Dwarves, they are everywhere.

Intersting thread, as I am considering using Demons in my next walkthough. On Hard, as on Impossible the halving ability of Archdemon and Charm of Demoness would be of very little use.
I would consider a line-up of Archdemons (skirmisher,hit-and-run), Demons/or Executioners(tanks), Demonesses (support unit/charmer), Demonologists (summoners/ranged attackers) and Scoffer Imps (ranged attack, skirmisher, debuff). I am thinking about using Cerberi instead of imps, I might lose ranged attack, but their new "charge" ability and 3-headed attack would make them excellent blockers for archers, specially with stone skin. As for Demons/Executioners... I might swap them depending on battle. They have similar stats and abilities, but Executioners are slower and thus better tanks, and have one de-buff talent and a de-buff ability, while Demons are jack-of-all-trades: they buff your units, they summon fodder, and they are fast too.

ckdamascus
10-22-2010, 01:18 AM
In my first Walkthrough of AP, there were only about 120 Gorguls in the game. I had to use Sacrifice (as a Warrior!) to get the rest. IN my current walkthrough... there are NO Gorguls ANYWHERE. Not that I plan to use them, just checked out of curiosity.

Frankly, I wish units of Elven/Demon/Lizardmen races would appear more often in other islands too. I never have trouble finding humans, orcs or Dwarves, they are everywhere.

Intersting thread, as I am considering using Demons in my next walkthough. On Hard, as on Impossible the halving ability of Archdemon and Charm of Demoness would be of very little use.
I would consider a line-up of Archdemons (skirmisher,hit-and-run), Demons/or Executioners(tanks), Demonesses (support unit/charmer), Demonologists (summoners/ranged attackers) and Scoffer Imps (ranged attack, skirmisher, debuff). I am thinking about using Cerberi instead of imps, I might lose ranged attack, but their new "charge" ability and 3-headed attack would make them excellent blockers for archers, specially with stone skin. As for Demons/Executioners... I might swap them depending on battle. They have similar stats and abilities, but Executioners are slower and thus better tanks, and have one de-buff talent and a de-buff ability, while Demons are jack-of-all-trades: they buff your units, they summon fodder, and they are fast too.

Yeah, it is a little sad that you really have to kite or get lucky with certain maps to make use of some of these troops.

Heh, just imagine how much harder it is to Sacrifice in Impossible mode due to diminished rage rates, etc. :) Actually for lower HP units as the "target of growth", it isn't too bad. Level 1 Sacrifice a Level 5 Unit instead, so they are easy to heal as opposed to consuming resurrections.

I don't see how Impossible mode precludes you from using the Archdemon and Demonesses excellent abilities. If the enemy becomes weakened enough, the Halving still works wonders, same with the Charm ability. You probably just can't do it in round 1.

You can use the new old spell "Soul Draining" to help get to this goal too. :)

What is this new charge ability of the Cerebi? If you mean "Leap", they always had that in AP. Did they improve it?

DGDobrev
10-22-2010, 01:30 AM
ckdamascus - I rarely used girl power items for a girl power army... However, I can see how 2 dresses of magess can be appealing for a different style of play - I would easily go for a more offensive style of play as well.

There are many strong points towards using a girl power army, but there are many problems. The girl power army can beat up a lot of enemies with ease - problem is, they have big problems against dragons (wicked magic resistance), other level 5 units (target doesn't affect them) and bosses (many will hit them anyway). On the positive note, any army composed of level 1-4 units (and some level 5 units with poor magic resistance) bites the dust in record time. Simply cast stone skin and target on the high-level tanker unit (like rune magi, paladins, etc.) and all done :)

In general, all a girl power army needs is Agvares. The rest is just a bonus - not to mention that he actually has a number of really useful item slots (weapon, dress/armor, belt/gloves, artifact).

Not to mention it's a lot of fun playing with them :P

ckdamascus
10-22-2010, 02:05 AM
ckdamascus - I rarely used girl power items for a girl power army... However, I can see how 2 dresses of magess can be appealing for a different style of play - I would easily go for a more offensive style of play as well.

There are many strong points towards using a girl power army, but there are many problems. The girl power army can beat up a lot of enemies with ease - problem is, they have big problems against dragons (wicked magic resistance), other level 5 units (target doesn't affect them) and bosses (many will hit them anyway). On the positive note, any army composed of level 1-4 units (and some level 5 units with poor magic resistance) bites the dust in record time. Simply cast stone skin and target on the high-level tanker unit (like rune magi, paladins, etc.) and all done :)

In general, all a girl power army needs is Agvares. The rest is just a bonus - not to mention that he actually has a number of really useful item slots (weapon, dress/armor, belt/gloves, artifact).

Not to mention it's a lot of fun playing with them :P

I never had a good reason to pick Agvares until now and I wasn't even really thinking girl power despite the strong synergy. Yes, my primary reason is actually his item slots.

I required someone who could hold a weapon and a belt, which narrowed it down to Moldok, Moro Dark, and Agvares.

Since I was going demonic, Agvares had that slight edge with the demonesses. The double dress thing is a big plus too. :) I even got two of those "Advisors Dress" items spawned, but clearly the Dress of the Magess (sic) is superior.

I don't have twinkling, but I have slippery cuirass, so more armor slots the better. The artifact slot is good too.

I hope this works... :)

[edit]
Ugh, I'm a fool. I was trying so hard to beat the final level of the Wizard's Tower to get the initial seed of Demonesses when it just hit me.

I could just get the initial seed from the Lake Faeries! It would prevent me from using trophies, but I am getting more certain that it was only designed for this purpose and that growing was meant to be done via Sacrifice.

I do regret getting Diplomacy now though. Sacrificing is much easier than I originally thought. Bleh. I guess I did not waste too many runes.

BB Shockwave
10-24-2010, 01:42 AM
Jimmy Kraud can use a dress too, if you give him the Blood of the Goddess. (And also grants you +700 Leadership).

Ckdamaskus: I meant, as opposed to The Legend. I played it recently, and afterwards sometimes I have to remind myself that these units have changed.

ckdamascus
10-24-2010, 02:10 AM
Jimmy Kraud can use a dress too, if you give him the Blood of the Goddess. (And also grants you +700 Leadership).

Ckdamaskus: I meant, as opposed to The Legend. I played it recently, and afterwards sometimes I have to remind myself that these units have changed.

Ah, good to know. I didn't know he would uh... cross dress after imbibing such fluids.

Oooh, I never played The Legend.

Metathron
10-24-2010, 02:13 AM
Oooh, I never played The Legend.

C.K.!! Wash that filthy mouth of yours with soap! :mad:

Or better yet, play the game! :mrgreen:

DGDobrev
10-24-2010, 11:17 AM
I second metathron's suggestion :) The legend may lack a lot of the new additions presented to us in KBAP and KBCW, but it was then when all the basic KB strategies started to take shape - the girl power army, my favorite lineup (Knights, Horsemen, Archmagi, Inquisitors, Royal Thorns/Cannoneers), playing a lot of turns to get a no-loss (which was harder back then, but attainable if you're willing to sacrifice some time) and so on. The lovely wives you had to choose from (except for Gerda, cough-cough!) were less than all the armor-bearers Amelie has to choose from, but they had some really great slots - who could forget the alluring and dashing demoness Xeona with her 2 WEAPON slots! Damn, she was the best catch for pretty much every character - including mage - who wouldn't want to wield 3 weapons that provide intelligence bonuses - much better than the +3 int bonus frog princess girl :)

Metathron
10-24-2010, 03:37 PM
I was going to use an orc army in my new paladin game (playing on normal, though - want to have a relaxed game with lots of room for experimentation and making errors), but ck's demon build looked so attractive that I went with it instead. It's a strong combination of units - I just love demons/executioners - and the three summons right in round 1 help a lot in distracting the enemy.

However, I have a small dilemma regarding weapon slots (companion Agvares): Is it better to have a +20% damage axe and a +20 crit sword, or two axes? Not much of a mathematician, so not sure which is ultimately better, though I am leaning more towards having two axes because it's a concrete improvement not rooted in chance.

loreangelicus
10-24-2010, 09:05 PM
I was going to use an orc army in my new paladin game (playing on normal, though - want to have a relaxed game with lots of room for experimentation and making errors), but ck's demon build looked so attractive that I went with it instead. It's a strong combination of units - I just love demons/executioners - and the three summons right in round 1 help a lot in distracting the enemy.

However, I have a small dilemma regarding weapon slots (companion Agvares): Is it better to have a +20% damage axe and a +20 crit sword, or two axes? Not much of a mathematician, so not sure which is ultimately better, though I am leaning more towards having two axes because it's a concrete improvement not rooted in chance.

I believe a critical hit adds +50% damage, so statistically a +20% critical translates to only +10% damage; so take the straight-up +20% damage axe.

KarlosCV
10-24-2010, 09:23 PM
In my last playthrough I decided to finally try orcs and demons.

Orcs - even with the CW improvements still a bit disappointing (or maybe because of them, I didn't care for the new Adrenaline feat).

But boy, the demons were fun! I dumped executioners after a while (too slow, too expensive, wimpy dmg/lship ratio) and changed them for imps. Best unit ever! :evil: With the Whip of Pain, Assassin Dagger and the awesome strike-and-return ability a thousand imps can wreak some serious havoc.

And the demoness was even more awesome. With Avgares nad the Whip of Pain she almost always killed the whole stack with one strike.

Not that it was necessary after she teleported my Cerberi into enemy ranks - with their three-head strike they cleared it all out in two three rounds.

The only possible weakness - Archdemons. In my view they don't have any useful abilities. Teleportation seems nice, but a hasted demon with "run" is with the enemy in one round as well and with my demoness-cerberi combo it was not really necessary anyway. And halving only sounds cool. Later I only took them for the fights with dragons, it was funny to watch those poor black and red bastards not being able to even touch them :) One stack of 15 black dragons did like 22 damage to my Archdemons :)


So if anyone is also bored with overpowered strategies like black knights, pure ranged or plants with botany-blackthorne-assasin dagger-whip of pain combo, demons are a great entertainingly different team to go with.

ckdamascus
10-24-2010, 09:26 PM
Yup, lore hit it right in the head. The only case where criticals are better is if you can guarantee a critical. I still tend to push for criticals though.

Another thing to consider is that morale (which is only really useful for the first hit, since you will most likely get hit by negative status effects), multiplies up your base critical. So it pays to get a higher base critical.

That said, ck's demon line up is not working out so well haha, at least in impossible. I did ok for a little while though.

What happens is, despite being really powerful, even with stoneskin and divine armor, the Demons have trouble resisting potentially major losses. I end up doing a lot of restoration instead.

Not to mention, that executioners have relatively damage to leadership (actually all demons do), so I can't quite blitz out the enemy even after I teleport them.

Demons and Executioners only get decent damage to leadership against level 1-3.

I end up baby sitting the executioners and demonesses a bit too much. Maybe when I get speed items, those demonesses and executioners will be more worth while.

I have now revised my build to

Archdemons
Black Dragons
Demons
Rune Mages
Demonologists

I actually end up phantoming the Demonologists instead. Now I can heal my Archdemons every round while dealing damage. Plus, the demonologists tend to draw a fair amount of aggro and now I got a lot of meatshields out there.

Mobility was an issue with my old army too. Again, things might be different once I get my speed items (belt of the victor and metamorphic axel).

You might be especially fine in normal modes though.

I might restart my mission back to level 37 though (i'm currently level 42 or so) so I can undo diplomacy. That like 24 mine runes and 8 strength runes I can't really afford. ;(

But ugh, I will then lose my ghost armor which I found as a random chest in a battle! Does anyone know if that will "always show up"?

I suppose I can live without some of the other skills. Or I can just start using that student belt non-stop now, plus start farming up gold big time.

loreangelicus
10-24-2010, 11:44 PM
Yup, lore hit it right in the head. The only case where criticals are better is if you can guarantee a critical. I still tend to push for criticals though.

The problems with criticals is the base +50% damage from a critical hit. An item that for example guarantees 100% critical essentially translates to +50% damage; on the other hand an item that adds +100% damage obviously does twice the bonus. This is why Crown of Blackthorne is so good for thorns, despite the faulty description (it says it doubles attack, not damage), catapulting thorn warrior as the highest possible DPS units with available items (Whip of Pain, Assassin's Dagger), with thorn-hunter coming second.


But ugh, I will then lose my ghost armor which I found as a random chest in a battle! Does anyone know if that will "always show up"?

The good news is it is guaranteed to show up; the bad news is that you have to do EVERYTHING EXACTLY as you had done before; doing exactly the same island-hopping sequence, eggs item usage (basically any action that could also influence what unit you get from a Call Colossus/Call of Death scroll), sequence of enemies fought, etc. up until the battle that generated chests that gave you the Ghost Armor.

Thankfully, unlike the chests your dragon digs up, if you are able to generate the same starting chests in that particular battle, then you are guaranteed to get the same item.

If you got it from a chest dug up by the dragon (is this possible? I always thought you could only dig up gold/scrolls/wanderer scrolls/runes) then the pain continues: you have to do the EXACT battle that you did before, down to the very last detail (ie. on round 8 you first cast Heal on the rune mage, then you had it move to coordinates [4,6]). Good luck with this, I had a hard time recreating a battle up to just the 3rd round (dug up an AK scroll on the 3rd round, but incurred a loss in later rounds, forcing me to replay the battle). :)

ckdamascus
10-25-2010, 01:51 AM
The problems with criticals is the base +50% damage from a critical hit. An item that for example guarantees 100% critical essentially translates to +50% damage; on the other hand an item that adds +100% damage obviously does twice the bonus. This is why Crown of Blackthorne is so good for thorns, despite the faulty description (it says it doubles attack, not damage), catapulting thorn warrior as the highest possible DPS units with available items (Whip of Pain, Assassin's Dagger), with thorn-hunter coming second.



The good news is it is guaranteed to show up; the bad news is that you have to do EVERYTHING EXACTLY as you had done before; doing exactly the same island-hopping sequence, eggs item usage (basically any action that could also influence what unit you get from a Call Colossus/Call of Death scroll), sequence of enemies fought, etc. up until the battle that generated chests that gave you the Ghost Armor.

Thankfully, unlike the chests your dragon digs up, if you are able to generate the same starting chests in that particular battle, then you are guaranteed to get the same item.

If you got it from a chest dug up by the dragon (is this possible? I always thought you could only dig up gold/scrolls/wanderer scrolls/runes) then the pain continues: you have to do the EXACT battle that you did before, down to the very last detail (ie. on round 8 you first cast Heal on the rune mage, then you had it move to coordinates [4,6]). Good luck with this, I had a hard time recreating a battle up to just the 3rd round (dug up an AK scroll on the 3rd round, but incurred a loss in later rounds, forcing me to replay the battle). :)

Oh no doubt it is the highest damaging unit per leadership with those buffs. If I wanted that though, I wouldn't have picked the Demonic Race. :) Although it seems maybe those little imps should not be ignored. Haha.

I get a feeling that it was one of those chests that was "in the battle" in the beginning. I'm not sure though! I swore I dug it, but who knows.

In my opinion, the demons true strength is tenacity due to infinite retaliation. That's why they are excellent summon units (and awesome candidates for Kamikaze).

KarlosCV: were you playing Impossible No Loss mode? That must have been a pain to restore the imps?

I like Archdemons since they are far more durable. I'm not so sure about other bosses, but it certainly made fighting the Frog and Spider doable. Admittedly they are NOT so good for damage/leadership.

The Frog... I had to use the Archdemon to force him NOT to use a mass attack.

I'm surprised you didn't see the power of orcs. Try using moldok as your hero, get onslaught level 3.

Phantom Orc Veterans eat up the front line like nothing. Once they hit Adrenaline Level 3, even bosses can't counterattack their assault.

Goblins end up doing 18K/damage per hit... throw in a Paladin and second wind. Oooh that pain. :)

loreangelicus
10-25-2010, 03:10 AM
I myself tried to use imps in KBTL; no-retaliation, pretty high damage/attack per leadership ratio, and two fireball attacks to use in the first 2 rounds while they are getting into melee range. But it was a pain to do no-loss with them; I ended up getting demoness and demons, to compliment the inquisitors/shamans/emerald green dragons.

KarlosCV
10-25-2010, 10:21 AM
KarlosCV: were you playing Impossible No Loss mode? That must have been a pain to restore the imps?

No, I never do no-loss, too time consuming and I just like different challenges more. But I had no problem reviving imps for three reasons:

a) in my last playthrough the cerberi, archdemons and demon/demon summons were my main tanks, so imps rarely got hit
b) I played Paladin so whatever was lost was fully restored after the battle, so 80 percent of my battles was de facto no-loss anyway
c) I tried the excellent "Gates of Hell" mod by Rider, which is exactly the special power that Archdemons (and the demon race as a whole) are sorely lacking

As for orcs - all right, I'll try them for the third time, maybe Warrior and maxed out onslaught and rage control will make some real difference :)

KarlosCV
10-25-2010, 10:26 AM
Phantom Orc Veterans eat up the front line like nothing

And that's another problem - I couldn't phantom my orcs, because throughout my whole game I didn't find a single Phantom spell! I think it was the only spell I didn't find, I had tons of crap, but not the most useful (and be honest, overpowered :)) spell in the game. During the battles I almost always dug up three chests but no luck. Amazing game :grin:

ckdamascus
10-25-2010, 01:43 PM
No, I never do no-loss, too time consuming and I just like different challenges more. But I had no problem reviving imps for three reasons:

a) in my last playthrough the cerberi, archdemons and demon/demon summons were my main tanks, so imps rarely got hit
b) I played Paladin so whatever was lost was fully restored after the battle, so 80 percent of my battles was de facto no-loss anyway
c) I tried the excellent "Gates of Hell" mod by Rider, which is exactly the special power that Archdemons (and the demon race as a whole) are sorely lacking

As for orcs - all right, I'll try them for the third time, maybe Warrior and maxed out onslaught and rage control will make some real difference :)

No. Moldok is the real difference. Throw in 2x battle axe and dagger of judgement too, I forgot my specific warrior build, but it will work whatever you put in it. :)

I believe I used Berserker Axe (+30% crit for axe users), Dagger of Judgement (+20% critical), and Maybe battleaxe?

Moldok gives EXTRA adrenaline to all Orc-ish units (excluding goblins), +1 speed and +1 init to all Orc race units (including goblins), makes all Orc-ish units (excluding goblins) have the ability to "Cause Bleeding" on hit.

Paladin
Goblin
Orc
Orc Veteran
Orc Tracker

No-loss, doable with these guys.

Goblin should have close to 100% critical. After first kill (max morale), he will get 100% critical. That's why you need a fairly high base critical.

Paladin Second Winds the Goblins. (or Orc Veterans)

NEXT round, Orc Commanders the goblins if he has enough adrenaline (that's basically second wind)

Orc Veterans use potion of rage to get into range, Phantom him. Phantoms have NO adrenaline, but that's GREAT for Orc Veterans. A level 3 Adrenaline Veteran doesn't get counter-attacked, but a phantomed one does. But Orc Veterans counter-counter attacks, so you do more damage in round 1. Real Orc then slices away.

Orc Tracker runs up and summons tanks. Either waits or slices. Adrenaline level 2 gives him +20% phys resist, tanks reduce him damage by half?

If you don't mind loss, this is a VERY fun build to roll around with. If you want to do no-loss it is doable, and not too crazy.

Orcs get max morale if they score a kill. That is their huge racial advantage. So it is very easy to get very high critical hits with them as the battle progresses.

@Lore-
Sorry, the Ghost Armor chest was one that showed up pre-battle sequence. I tried skipping ahead, no soup. It is POSSIBLE that it will show up eventually during one of my battles, not necessarily that one. (e.g. the random items are pre-generated ahead of time).

I don't know this for a fact though. I guess I will find out soon enough.

However, this points out a very key factor and a big problem with my previous army. Low initiative or low speed. Those pre-generated chests in the beginning of battle. Pretty sure if the enemy gets it, whatever item it was will never show up again IF the battles are pre-generated. (of course you could get lucky and have 2 duplicate items in the pre-generation ... if it's even pre-generated to begin with).

Demonesses got in first. But, can't reach the chest easily. Archdemons can still do my "first strike", Black Dragons can recover the chest.

So maybe it works like "the 150th battle ever, will have a chest that has ghost armor in it"

I know if I do it all exactly the same it will show up, but the problem is I don't want to and it is too far away for me to replicate it. Haha. Doing it with Demonesses made it much harder for a lot of the battles and I did a lot of sacrificing and such to raise my Demonesses ranks. (Yeah, from 1 Demonesses to like 93 haha, but I did steal a handful via diplomacy which I no longer have now).

I guess I will be the ultimate guinea pig for this. If I don't see it show up as I catch-up, then we know it is truly random vs pre-generated in the game's mind.

On the flip side, it isn't as critical of an item for me now, because I don't really plan to use demonesses that much now and/or I don't really need ghost armor that badly.


[EDIT]
LORE! Guess who just got his cake and ATE it too! The game spawned the SAME ghost armor again! Woot! I did go a similar path, but not completely identical. It seems it is not related to the unit make up (at least not the number of units and types of units?).

Might be more related to the number of battles AND where you fight them (since you can change the terrain).

BB Shockwave
10-27-2010, 10:34 PM
I second metathron's suggestion :) The legend may lack a lot of the new additions presented to us in KBAP and KBCW, but it was then when all the basic KB strategies started to take shape - the girl power army, my favorite lineup (Knights, Horsemen, Archmagi, Inquisitors, Royal Thorns/Cannoneers), playing a lot of turns to get a no-loss (which was harder back then, but attainable if you're willing to sacrifice some time) and so on. The lovely wives you had to choose from (except for Gerda, cough-cough!) were less than all the armor-bearers Amelie has to choose from, but they had some really great slots - who could forget the alluring and dashing demoness Xeona with her 2 WEAPON slots! Damn, she was the best catch for pretty much every character - including mage - who wouldn't want to wield 3 weapons that provide intelligence bonuses - much better than the +3 int bonus frog princess girl :)

I have to disagree! Fiona was awesome... for my Paladin, who selfishly neglected her until she turned back into a frog. Making my Royal Snakes uber-powerfull... :) Then next time, my necromancer Mage used Rina... giving her back the ring that turns her into a Zombie.

And thus, in both of my walkthroughs, I never had to bother with raising children, with a frog or a zombie as my wife... :)

CK - What I like in Demons/Executioners (and hate if I am against them) is that they were MADE to rush into the front lines, and every time you hit them, they not only hit back, but with a good chance can act again against you in that round! I'm glad I am a Paladin, using Paladins... they will come in handy against those fiends. Archdemons are more hit and run then tanks, IMHO. 666 is a neat number for them, but little as HP, and unless you fight on lava they have not much defense. They rock against dragons, and they can decimate smaller stacks, and the best is of course, just like in HOMMIII, their speed and teleportation, you can do a lot of hit and run - attacking an enemy at the end of the turn, then teleporting away to another at the beginning of the turn. Only Phoenixes are faster, I think.

Btw... God Armour works on Demons? Because it did not affect Undead in The Legend... thought it would not work on Demons either.

ckdamascus
10-28-2010, 01:23 AM
CK - What I like in Demons/Executioners (and hate if I am against them) is that they were MADE to rush into the front lines, and every time you hit them, they not only hit back, but with a good chance can act again against you in that round! I'm glad I am a Paladin, using Paladins... they will come in handy against those fiends. Archdemons are more hit and run then tanks, IMHO. 666 is a neat number for them, but little as HP, and unless you fight on lava they have not much defense. They rock against dragons, and they can decimate smaller stacks, and the best is of course, just like in HOMMIII, their speed and teleportation, you can do a lot of hit and run - attacking an enemy at the end of the turn, then teleporting away to another at the beginning of the turn. Only Phoenixes are faster, I think.

Btw... God Armour works on Demons? Because it did not affect Undead in The Legend... thought it would not work on Demons either.

Sure, but Demons are soft. They die verrry easily due to low HP. They are excellent as disposable units. So, they are fairly ideal for phantoming and dropping them into enemy lines.

Maybe things were really different in The Legend, but, they have 766 HP, they also have 66 native defense, the 3rd highest in the game, (black dragon has 70, cyclops has 67), 20% physical resistance, which is nearly the 2nd highest in the game, not counting ghosts.

Phoenixes are slower. Archdemons are the fastest unit in the game. If the enemy stack is not ungodly powerful, I will typically stoneskin the Archdemon, position the Archdemon in enemy lines, and summon a phoenix next to him.

I don't see the point in hitting and running. He is NOT a no retaliation unit. This is not HOMMIII. :) He burns an enemy counter attack so my Phoenix can hit for free and hit the adjacent enemies for free. (since now the enemy is really strong, and I cannot buff the Phoenix with defensive spells, their counterattacks would hurt the phoenix tremendously).

Even the Demoness has a better damage per leadership than the Demon (against level 4s and level 5s).

However, the Demons are extremely tenacious due to infinite retaliations. So, no problem. My Demons summon other, disposable Demons for me. :)

Yes, Divine Armor works on Archdemons and Demons... probably the entire Demonic race. :)

Sort of scary when you face an enemy stack that is strong enough to generate a kill off of a 95% physical resist Archdemon though. :)

Another benefit of the Archdemon as a tank is his ability to purge negative effects. You have no idea how often I got pissed when my Super Troll Stack would burn away a troll every round because he got hit by some stupid catapult.

I would have to either phantom a rune mage to revive, or burn a dispel on him or do both. Now, I don't have to, since Archdemons will remove it for free in the beginning of the next round.

Curiously enough, if the 3rd best defensive unit, with the 2nd highest physical resist unit isn't a good enough tank, what is? Not everyone wants to go Humans (Paladins and Knights probably being the better tanks at 30% physical resist and SCALING defense that goes up to... similar levels as the Archdemon after quite a few hits. :) )

(Cyclops cannot be revived, short of Turn Back Time level 3, Black Dragon cannot be pre-buffed, so he will definitely take losses against insane physical stacks). Paladins have 30% physical resists.

onepiece
10-28-2010, 01:32 AM
@BBShockwave; that's the reason I still play with them (even when they are very weak on the later parts but love their poisoning and no retaliation). Loved the double attack to them (I'm still dreaming of a pure snake & spider team, it only lacks a level 4-5 unit to run havoc on this land!)

ArchDemons, and demons in general, are good for exactly that, hit and run, crowd control and counter some enemies with it's abilities. Very weak against paladin with paladins (duhh) and the sword of light and holy anger (now that's a lot less defense; from 66 to 38 )

Zechnophobe
10-29-2010, 11:35 PM
I believe a critical hit adds +50% damage, so statistically a +20% critical translates to only +10% damage; so take the straight-up +20% damage axe.

a Critical hit causes you to do 150% of the max damage for a unit. This means that it depends on the damage spread of a unit how valuable the crit is.

Also, +20% crit multiplies with Morale. So if you have +3 morale (140% crit) this will be +28% critical instead.

So, how does this figure in? Dryads do 1-4 damage (average 2.5) and crit for 6, more than double damage.

+20% damage would cause them to do just that, 20% more damage flat accross. (so .2*2.5 = .5 more damage per strike)

+20% with 3 morale (easy on dryads) so +28% crit causes them to, on average, do 28% of the crit damage they get. So 6 -2.5 = 3.5, * 28% = .98.

This means that yes, the crit boost is actually substantially more worth it(for dryads under these conditions). Also, most items that increase crit, do so for all your troops, whereas I don't think many items increase damage for all of them.

This is why I like to field high morale, high crit units with large damage ranges :).

ckdamascus
10-31-2010, 02:31 AM
a Critical hit causes you to do 150% of the max damage for a unit. This means that it depends on the damage spread of a unit how valuable the crit is.



I had no idea critical hits do maximum damage on top of 50% additional damage.

I learn something new every day. Haha.

[edit]
This actually makes the spell Doom a little bit more worthwhile. Otherwise, Pygmy utterly annihilates it. (it still sort of does though. Haha).

onepiece
10-31-2010, 02:46 AM
@Ckdamascus; I learned that in AP and boosted all my units critical (dagger of judgment + shadow cloak/ Max Prayer skill; critical boosting items for particular races/units, etc.)

The only problem is that by having 95-100% critical chance, Ancient vampire are nearly invincible (since they cannot be hit by critical) so I had to kill them by spells or wait until a negative effect lowered my critical chance.

ckdamascus
10-31-2010, 03:07 AM
@Ckdamascus; I learned that in AP and boosted all my units critical (dagger of judgment + shadow cloak/ Max Prayer skill; critical boosting items for particular races/units, etc.)

The only problem is that by having 95-100% critical chance, Ancient vampire are nearly invincible (since they cannot be hit by critical) so I had to kill them by spells or wait until a negative effect lowered my critical chance.

Sheep them. :)

Metathron
10-31-2010, 10:11 AM
Oh really? Sheep works then? I assumed that sheep would keep an attribute like death's deception much like they keep their defense/hit points/resistances (I guess). Though it would be funny to see a sheep swerve from a crit. :mrgreen:

Also, attacking ancient vampires with special attacks like the elves' double shot or the executioners' execution cannot trigger a critical and is therefore a safe bet.

ckdamascus
10-31-2010, 10:14 PM
Oh really? Sheep works then? I assumed that sheep would keep an attribute like death's deception much like they keep their defense/hit points/resistances (I guess). Though it would be funny to see a sheep swerve from a crit. :mrgreen:

Also, attacking ancient vampires with special attacks like the elves' double shot or the executioners' execution cannot trigger a critical and is therefore a safe bet.

Yeah, but where is the fun in that? :) I want some REAL damage. Haha.

One thing I hate about sheep is that they automatically lose all debuffs and buffs when they transform into a sheep.

So, if I am using the fire/poison/helplessness/pygmy combo on someone, and then my rune mage sheeps him on attack... he loses all those debuffs. :(

onepiece
11-01-2010, 12:46 PM
@Ckdamascus; I didn't have sheep at that moment (or not enough mana) so all I could do was wait

ckdamascus
11-01-2010, 01:18 PM
@Ckdamascus; I didn't have sheep at that moment (or not enough mana) so all I could do was wait

Sheep is really mana expensive too.

Yeah, you have to goad them into going back into bat form and/or just disarm most of your critical hit buffing items.

BB Shockwave
11-03-2010, 09:51 AM
Sure, but Demons are soft. They die verrry easily due to low HP. They are excellent as disposable units. So, they are fairly ideal for phantoming and dropping them into enemy lines.

Umm... sorry? Demons have like, 200 HP. That's among the highest of Level 4 units. Only Royal Thorns and Royal Griffins exceed those. They also do insane damage against Level 1-3 units, always retaliate... Granted, they have no Physical Res. but then, you can cast Stoneskin.

Maybe things were really different in The Legend, but, they have 766 HP, they also have 66 native defense, the 3rd highest in the game, (black dragon has 70, cyclops has 67), 20% physical resistance, which is nearly the 2nd highest in the game, not counting ghosts.

Erm, Paladins and Knights have 30%, a lot of units have 20% (even Stone Spiders and Swordsmen). They had 666 HP in Legend (demons have a fixation for that number). And yeah, they are tough to kill physically, but if you attack them with magic, they die easily as their HP is low for Level 5. That said, I still want to try and use them - in AP on my first walkthrough I gained one Archdemon with a Scroll of Summon Giant very early on, and the halving ability was really, really sweet.

Phoenixes are slower. Archdemons are the fastest unit in the game. If the enemy stack is not ungodly powerful, I will typically stoneskin the Archdemon, position the Archdemon in enemy lines, and summon a phoenix next to him.

Does Restoration only remove negative effects from them? Not positives?

I don't see the point in hitting and running. He is NOT a no retaliation unit. This is not HOMMIII. :) He burns an enemy counter attack so my Phoenix can hit for free and hit the adjacent enemies for free. (since now the enemy is really strong, and I cannot buff the Phoenix with defensive spells, their counterattacks would hurt the phoenix tremendously).

Well, it's your game... IMHO, the Demon is a better blocker due to the unlimited retaliation and because you can have larger numbers (more HP) of him. I'd use the Archdemon to warp around and take out bothersome units.

Even the Demoness has a better damage per leadership than the Demon (against level 4s and level 5s).

Sure, that is because the Demoness is a slow tank creature (with some interesting abilities). Without tactics, you will spend several rounds getting her into the fray, while Demons have Running. I always easily kill enemy Demonesses - just Magic Shackle them, and they are as dangerous now as Peasants. You can pick them off from afar or wait until they move and kill them with no-ret. units. Their main strenght lies in the teleportation and the +1 cell range attack, take that away and they are not that strong.

However, the Demons are extremely tenacious due to infinite retaliations. So, no problem. My Demons summon other, disposable Demons for me. :)

In AP I used Demonolgists for a while, so I have seen both them and Executioners 'at work'. The special fear ability is neat, but as you say, the summoning can be more usefull. Especially if your other summoners are Demonologists - since you cannot control what they summon.

Yes, Divine Armor works on Archdemons and Demons... probably the entire Demonic race. :)

That's good to know. In the Legend, my Mage hardly learned any Order Magic at all, as Bless, God Armour, Resurrection, Healing do not work at all on my Undead troops (or even damage them).

Another benefit of the Archdemon as a tank is his ability to purge negative effects. You have no idea how often I got pissed when my Super Troll Stack would burn away a troll every round because he got hit by some stupid catapult.

That is a neat ability, with the Witch Hunter and Heavenly Guardians too. I defeated Ragni easily in AP because every round, she cast Hypnotize on my Heavenly Guardians... And Gremlin Towers like to do this too. They never learn... :)

Curiously enough, if the 3rd best defensive unit, with the 2nd highest physical resist unit isn't a good enough tank, what is? Not everyone wants to go Humans (Paladins and Knights probably being the better tanks at 30% physical resist and SCALING defense that goes up to... similar levels as the Archdemon after quite a few hits. :) )

(Cyclops cannot be revived, short of Turn Back Time level 3, Black Dragon cannot be pre-buffed, so he will definitely take losses against insane physical stacks). Paladins have 30% physical resists.

Cursed Ghosts are pretty good tanks - in my Undead game walkthrough, I used them often. Just cast Stoneskin and send them into the fray. Granted, against creatures with fire/magic attacks, they fall like flies. And best of all, they resurrect themselves. Though they can be a bother, when doing no-loss, as they often over-drain themselves and then you have to hit them with calculated spells like Healing to whittle them down to your exact Leadership. Also, it is quite annoying that you cannot resurrect them if they are completely killed off. (Though I'm glad this means the enemy cannot raise them with his necromancers either).

Sheep is really mana expensive too.

Yeah, you have to goad them into going back into bat form and/or just disarm most of your critical hit buffing items.

I found that the enemy almost always transforms them into bat if you place a unit they can reach in that form in their way. :) Me using undeads myself, naturally sent my ghosts out to be bait every time - and vampire bats without life drain are easy to get rid off.

Doom is incredibly usefull against things like Death Knights, who otherwise take a long-long time to kill and get stronger as the battle goes on.

ckdamascus
11-03-2010, 11:35 AM
Umm... sorry? Demons have like, 200 HP. That's among the highest of Level 4 units. Only Royal Thorns and Royal Griffins exceed those. They also do insane damage against Level 1-3 units, always retaliate... Granted, they have no Physical Res. but then, you can cast Stoneskin.


Again, I think the Impossible difficulty is the difference here. I still end up losing at least one Demon as the battle progresses even with both Divine or Stone Skin. It might be that I didn't want to keep baby sitting them by constantly casting Divine Armor, whereas my Archdemon has nearly 130 defense (Belt of the Victor) and doesn't need Divine Armor after the 2nd round.

Don't forget that Demons are harder to resurrect... all Demons and Undead are since I cannot rely on mass-healing of the Paladin. So the more of them you put on in the field, the more at risk you are of wasting a lot of rounds recovering or sucking up double Phantoms on rune mages.

The Demons go back to par with the Orc Veterans with Domination (+30% against 1-3). Again, they are excellent disposable units.

That said, here is an even better strategy that I ended up using instead.

Phantom!

1) Phantom Demon (level 2 if I want to do Ancient Phoenix, level 3 otherwise) :)
2) Archdemon teleports next to the Phantom Demon
3) Pygmy the teleported enemy and slam the crap out of him. :) (although in a lot of my matches, it ended up that my rune mage could sheep him a lot of the time too, making my Pygmy wasted)
4) Rune mages either summon or hit, demonologists either summon (if it will place it next to the enemy line too) or hit too.
5) Real Demon either hits or summons
6) Archdemon hits twice in a row. :) (might skin or pygmy the enemy if I decided to cast Ancient Phoenix in the previous round instead)

So basically the Phantom Demon causes all the havoc now by summoning again right in their line. So I don't really have to buff him.


Erm, Paladins and Knights have 30%, a lot of units have 20% (even Stone Spiders and Swordsmen). They had 666 HP in Legend (demons have a fixation for that number). And yeah, they are tough to kill physically, but if you attack them with magic, they die easily as their HP is low for Level 5. That said, I still want to try and use them - in AP on my first walkthrough I gained one Archdemon with a Scroll of Summon Giant very early on, and the halving ability was really, really sweet.


Yeah, ignoring Ghosts (50% phys), as a common unit, 20% is the 2nd highest. Swordsmen and Stone spiders don't have NEARLY as much defense and HP.

Divine Armor, ghost armor, mirror shield, chrown of chaos, diploma of antimagic... :) 766 HP still too low? Higher than Cyclops. Nearly the same as Troll. Dragons beat him and so does Giant. I'd hardly call him on the low scale though. Cyclops has it pretty low at 650 and is unhealable, making the Cyclops more vulnerable to magic. Not to mention, how are you not rolling around with a Crown of Chaos in this Orc infested campaign? :)

Best part is, if you field demonologists with them, you phantom the demonologists, and use thread of life so even if you lose or get close to losing one, you can damage AND heal in one disposable unit.



Does Restoration only remove negative effects from them? Not positives?


Yeah. Unlike the crappy Assassin unit.



Well, it's your game... IMHO, the Demon is a better blocker due to the unlimited retaliation and because you can have larger numbers (more HP) of him. I'd use the Archdemon to warp around and take out bothersome units.

Sure, that is because the Demoness is a slow tank creature (with some interesting abilities). Without tactics, you will spend several rounds getting her into the fray, while Demons have Running. I always easily kill enemy Demonesses - just Magic Shackle them, and they are as dangerous now as Peasants. You can pick them off from afar or wait until they move and kill them with no-ret. units. Their main strenght lies in the teleportation and the +1 cell range attack, take that away and they are not that strong.


I did end up using Demons, but only as a Phantom. Sped up battle a bit thanks to unlimited retaliation.

How the AI uses the enemy isn't any indication of how strong a unit is when used on your side. :) They can't buff the demonesses like I can.

If the enemy was weaker, I would end up going on the offensive instead. First round, Pygmy an enemy (who has two cells exposed). Sending my Archdemon to the enemy, teleporting my Demonesses, NOT my demons, against the enemy who I just burned a counterattack to. Would basically always kill a stack or cripple it.

I hit nearly 100% critical hit with the demonesses (my build relied on near 100% criticals for all the demons), so they would easily hit their max damage amount, so it is a free bless + doom in one. :)

Against Level 1-3 units, Demons are probably a little better for aggregate damage due to unlimited retaliation with the bonus gives you a much better aggregate.

Against Level 4-5 units, especially with Agvares (basically +26 attack rating to demonesses), Demonesses are MUCH MUCH MUCH better damage wise since their attack rating ends up being higher than the Demons PLUS they do more damage per leadership, so their raw damage is already higher.

Since I nearly crit with all of them, I will use their MAX damage to calculate raw damage.

Demoness does 18 damage. 18/160 = 0.1125
Demon does 27/300 = 0.09

So, if demon does domination, they do 0.09*1.3 more. However... with Agvares... the story is different.

So that is a +24 Attack rating advantage over the Demons. 52 Attack - 30 Attack 22 is 22*0.03333 ~ 0.73 or 1.73X more damage over the demons.
I say this statistically, not from "how I feel". :)

However, this is ONLY true if the Demons cannot achieve +60 Attack over the enemy defense. If the Demons can, then you want them to hit the Level 1-3 units for Domination and the now moot point of 3X damage.

Otherwise the Demonesses will outdamage the Demons in one to one combat. Demons will do more aggregate damage if in the middle of a fight, but will probably take too much baby sitting and take losses (more maintenance). Phantom Demon solves this easily :)


In AP I used Demonolgists for a while, so I have seen both them and Executioners 'at work'. The special fear ability is neat, but as you say, the summoning can be more usefull. Especially if your other summoners are Demonologists - since you cannot control what they summon.


If the enemy is annoying, I would just keep phantoming and re-summoning. I would then use the Archdemon to quickly hit things, then Thread of Life to restore them. The higher defense rating helps a ton. Also the Archdemons can bring down the tenacious physical resistant enemies with Halving once their numbers get low enough.



That's good to know. In the Legend, my Mage hardly learned any Order Magic at all, as Bless, God Armour, Resurrection, Healing do not work at all on my Undead troops (or even damage them).



That is a neat ability, with the Witch Hunter and Heavenly Guardians too. I defeated Ragni easily in AP because every round, she cast Hypnotize on my Heavenly Guardians... And Gremlin Towers like to do this too. They never learn... :)



Cursed Ghosts are pretty good tanks - in my Undead game walkthrough, I used them often. Just cast Stoneskin and send them into the fray. Granted, against creatures with fire/magic attacks, they fall like flies. And best of all, they resurrect themselves. Though they can be a bother, when doing no-loss, as they often over-drain themselves and then you have to hit them with calculated spells like Healing to whittle them down to your exact Leadership. Also, it is quite annoying that you cannot resurrect them if they are completely killed off. (Though I'm glad this means the enemy cannot raise them with his necromancers either).



I found that the enemy almost always transforms them into bat if you place a unit they can reach in that form in their way. :) Me using undeads myself, naturally sent my ghosts out to be bait every time - and vampire bats without life drain are easy to get rid off.

Doom is incredibly usefull against things like Death Knights, who otherwise take a long-long time to kill and get stronger as the battle goes on.

Yeah, the AI will try to hit the nearest enemy, so putting them just out of reach of bat form will most likely trigger that.

Well, most of the time, my units already have 100% crit or close enough to it that Pygmy makes 2000% more sense.

Pygmy Level 3: 40% attack rating reduction and effectively 66% more damage for 20 mana.

Vs... doing 50% more damage and max damage.

Pygmy does both defense and offensive in one.

BB Shockwave
11-03-2010, 02:53 PM
You know, when I recruited Agraves I was checking his ability and was like "WOW!" - then it turns out he can only command quite crappy units (well, except for Assassins). I wish he could command Demons instead... that'd make him more usefull.

Is there some item that grants +1 speed to Demons? It'd be quite usefull.

ckdamascus
11-03-2010, 03:00 PM
You know, when I recruited Agraves I was checking his ability and was like "WOW!" - then it turns out he can only command quite crappy units (well, except for Assassins). I wish he could command Demons instead... that'd make him more usefull.

Is there some item that grants +1 speed to Demons? It'd be quite usefull.

Only items I can think of is the metamorphic axel and belt of the victor.

I'm actually working on a new build where it won't quite matter. :) Or in short, I think I found a useful purpose for the paladin class.

Dryads
Forest Fairy
Lake Fairy
Paladin
Demoness

Paladins will revive the other non-demon units, Demoness will get resurrected by Resurrection Level 3 Paladin Skill.

It won't help for No-Loss, but it makes for smoother play. I can just teleport the Demonesses over and not worry about restoring them.

Paladin's Mind Tree Resurrection ability helps on Prayer too, and Holy Armor might save my fairies from catastrophic losses.

I haven't fully fleshed it all out. I might even swap in another unit to replace a fairy unit.