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View Full Version : Smoother normal game play - warrior, paladin, or mage


ckdamascus
03-29-2010, 08:58 PM
I've been trying to find a reason to try out the warrior or paladin class, as I have only played on impossible mage.

One thing that has really bugged me about the mage is the mana regeneration after a battle. Sure sure, when I can easily wreck the enemy team to transmute, wait for concentration, and drop the mana accelerator.

But, it just seems really tedious to extend battles JUST to regenerate another round of points, especially if the enemy is weak enough not to generate a lot of rage.

Maybe I am overreacting since I've just finished undoing that pain of skull... twice in too short a time frame. :)

I've wondered, if I go with a warrior class, can I literally just do battle after battle? Yeah, there might be some of that boring resurrection crap (gosh, I really hate doing that and I wonder if anyone has a balanced team that doesn't rely on phantom paladins and inquisitors).

I'm just sort of sick of fighting, extending, waiting for mana to regen.

I am also sick of over-micro management of spells. There seems like so many powerful items for damage (yet, everyone says defense is key, bleh), yet how come there isn't really a lot of pure damage armies besides black knights?

And, I'm not too keen on the "let's go super buff royal griffin" team. I feel like inquisitors and archmages are like dead weight liabilities after they have used their buffs. Just more units to resurrect and/or protect. :(

The quick math says that having a really high attack rating might not buff as much as say buffing criticals, in which case, the warrior's advantage is only more leadership.

Anyone have a saved game of an impossible warrior that has smoothly crushed everything? I say smoothly as in, NO extending battles significantly (wasting 5 rounds just to rebuild mana/regen/resurrect is NOT smooth).

Boss battles must be smoothly done. I mean, 20-30 turns max. None of this 64 turns of very tedious stuff, like calm rage, phantom, resurrect. Or 10 rounds of eviln.

No waiting for rage to dissipate or mana to regen. I figured a warrior could just end with max rage, mana accelerate first thing next battle, and continue his rampage.

Any thoughts? :)

Elias_Maluco
03-29-2010, 11:43 PM
Im playing warrior hard now, and "battle after battle" is pretty much like it.

When I played paladin, I was used to waiting a lot to get mana restored. With warrior, I have full-mana pretty much all times, just for beating the crap out of enemies. After most battles I will be filled with rage and mana, so is good to attack again imediatelly. I will never "extend" more than needed to dig (when I dig, is not always).

About ressurection: Im not using any ressurector right now, in fact Im using a team of 100% level 5 units. Every once in a while there will be a loss, but I dont care too much about it, unless is some unit I cant replace.

But it all boils down on how do you play the game. If you arent worried about a few losses or maximum score, warrior is probably the easiest and fastest class.

fable
03-30-2010, 10:26 AM
Try vampires. They either die fast or finish with full stack.
Or play paladin class with a single stack of something: the "resurrect" skill will bring back all lost troops.

ckdamascus
03-30-2010, 01:03 PM
I actually restarted yet again last night with the warrior on impossible. Holy cow, sooooo easy early on compared to the mage.

With the impossible mage gift pack restart, I just went straight to kiting every map except for tekron (honestly, I'm still not sure how I did it...).

With the impossible warrior, I just immediately cleared the first map, no kiting.

Either that, or I have played this game waaay too much. :)

Yeah, the paladin resurrection is QUITE appealing for a smooth game play, but I usually try to aim for no-losses anyway (just to get the medal ASAP). So far, it seems like having some rage for the next battle is really key. I'll find out soon enough though.

loreangelicus
03-30-2010, 02:16 PM
Well, since you are playing warrior on impossible now instead of mage, you might want to try this lineup:

black knight-repair droid-guard droid-repair droid-bone dragon

Droids don't need mana/rage to repair, and you only need Eviln to resurrect the two undead units. And if you really don't want to micromanage their minimal losses, you could just spam Phantom level 3 on the bone dragons and just use the phantoms to engage the enemy for no losses; then use your real army to mop up survivors if there are any.

For boss battles, just use the black knights (with stone skin of course) and repair droids to attack the boss while the rest of your army either does nothing or kills summons.

Only boss battles would make you pause to think, and only Zilgadis and maybe Baal (haven't fought him yet) will prove a challenge:

Driller at level 33, 25 rounds, no loss
Zilgadis at level 47, 63 rounds!, no loss
K'Tahu at level 53, 16 rounds, no loss

I didn't kill the spider and frog bosses since I am going for a fast run as well and I want to chain-fight them with an Ancient Knowledge scroll, but with undead and droids that are 50% and 80% poison resistant, they would have been pushovers anyway; they are also the weakest bosses, btw.

In the battle with Zilgadis, maybe it could have been done in a lot less rounds. He was doing a string of mass attacks, and it came to a point where I held off in killing him only because I was waiting for him to generate a friendly tower (to keep alive while I recover from his mass attacks), but those are the breaks of the game. Granted, 50% magic-vulnerable droids and 0% magic-resistant undead are not exactly the optimal units to use against a mass magic attacking boss, but it was a welcome challenge since the said lineup was slaying everything else with impunity before that point (and even after that point).

K'Tahu was a joke. Except for the gorguanas, he and his minions were all doing physical damage which my lineup was highly resistant to. Undead and droids are immune to fear as well, so the Tirexes were not a factor. Then again, maybe my high level at that point made a difference (I'm doing a high level run as well)...

Oh, and with Bloodthirst, you could end battles with zero rage and max mana (with mana accelerator/calm rage), then your rage immediately jumps back up to 40% of your max rage for the next battle, usually more than enough to start turn one with mana accelerator-Phantom level 3 (25 mana).

ckdamascus
03-30-2010, 05:01 PM
Wow! Thanks for the detailed response! This is sort of what I was looking for.

Honestly, I was going to settle for just low casualties.

Normally the droids would annoy me with the cross healing (mostly because enemies seem to blitz them), but with super black knights crushing everything really fast, this shouldn't be too bad.

I wonder if the phys resistant droids can salvage my old impossible mage game too... hmmm.

I am assuming you have played impossible mage as well, is it true that warriors have a smoother/faster real-time game play than mages?

63 rounds isn't too bad. I nearly cried when I took about 30 rounds for 3 of the droid fights on bolo.

loreangelicus
03-30-2010, 05:39 PM
I have a job and a family, so I don't have too much time to play games. :) I played the original game, KBTL, only once, with a paladin on impossible. I have yet to finish my impossible warrior game in KBAP. But since it seems that there would not be a 3rd installment for the KB series, I might play mage on impossible when I get the time.

I also play the game at impossible/7-days/no-loss, so coupled with my limited playtime, it's pretty slow going. Just like you though, I do have the advantage of benefiting from the experience of others, thus my choice of units.

Yup, all the enemies will try and attack your droids first, especially the repair droids. This is all good for this lineup since the droids can easily repair each other. Eviln may be overpowered, but I still sometimes find it tedious to bring back lost undead units with it.

Take note that for most battles, it is probably better to just let your droids, bone dragons, and phantom bone dragons to do all the fighting and just let your black knights kick up their heels and relax. This is because they are slower than the rest of your units, and in the middle to late part of the game, an attack from an enemy stack would most likely cause them to incur at least some losses, thus necessitating a casting of Eviln. Their superior firepower is vital for boss battles though, so don't make the mistake of thinking of them as unnecessary.

In this lineup, it is important to note that the shard from Moro Dark is not really needed; just kill the fool for XP. :)

For the initial islands it really helps a lot to do a lot of digging with your pet dragon, and hopefully dig up a Call Colossus. I was very fortunate to have dug up 4 Call Colossus by the second island (Scarlet Wind). I took out Bolo quite handily by using 2 of the 4 Call Colossus scrolls to generate 1 red dragon and 1 black dragon. To prevent the droid hero R-14 Gromozeka from pounding the red dragon with direct damage I simply took guard droids and repair droids to fill in the rest of my army slots.

Note that if you are trying to go for dragons via Call Colossus early in the game, you need to prioritize Glory (from the mind tree). Even a warrior would be hard pressed to get 2,000 (for red dragon) - 2,500 (for black dragon) leadership by the 3rd island (Bolo). In a 7-day run, it pays off though, as evident by my taking out Bolo in the first pass, before going to Verona.

Zechnophobe
03-30-2010, 06:35 PM
I've been trying to find a reason to try out the warrior or paladin class, as I have only played on impossible mage.

One thing that has really bugged me about the mage is the mana regeneration after a battle. Sure sure, when I can easily wreck the enemy team to transmute, wait for concentration, and drop the mana accelerator.

But, it just seems really tedious to extend battles JUST to regenerate another round of points, especially if the enemy is weak enough not to generate a lot of rage.

Maybe I am overreacting since I've just finished undoing that pain of skull... twice in too short a time frame. :)

I've wondered, if I go with a warrior class, can I literally just do battle after battle? Yeah, there might be some of that boring resurrection crap (gosh, I really hate doing that and I wonder if anyone has a balanced team that doesn't rely on phantom paladins and inquisitors).

I'm just sort of sick of fighting, extending, waiting for mana to regen.

I am also sick of over-micro management of spells. There seems like so many powerful items for damage (yet, everyone says defense is key, bleh), yet how come there isn't really a lot of pure damage armies besides black knights?

And, I'm not too keen on the "let's go super buff royal griffin" team. I feel like inquisitors and archmages are like dead weight liabilities after they have used their buffs. Just more units to resurrect and/or protect. :(

The quick math says that having a really high attack rating might not buff as much as say buffing criticals, in which case, the warrior's advantage is only more leadership.

Anyone have a saved game of an impossible warrior that has smoothly crushed everything? I say smoothly as in, NO extending battles significantly (wasting 5 rounds just to rebuild mana/regen/resurrect is NOT smooth).

Boss battles must be smoothly done. I mean, 20-30 turns max. None of this 64 turns of very tedious stuff, like calm rage, phantom, resurrect. Or 10 rounds of eviln.

No waiting for rage to dissipate or mana to regen. I figured a warrior could just end with max rage, mana accelerate first thing next battle, and continue his rampage.

Any thoughts? :)

Dragons + Pet Dragon = Awesome sauce. This is how I play Warrior (and Paladin to a lesser extent). Did a no loss warrior run with this, and did not spend wasted extra time rezzing units at end of combat. Target + time back + army that absolutely dishes out the damage was more than enough in almost every encounter. Get lots of crit gear, focus on rage and pet dragon building skills.

I did end up having to use a solo bone dragon stack to kill Ktahu and Baal however. If you want No Loss against those two it requires some pretty specific combat choices.

N3MES1S
03-31-2010, 11:22 AM
U can do more "battle after battle" with warrior thatn with mage. Instead of mana, with warrior u can raise the rage, and the bloodthirst skill, i finished the game on impossible with warrior 3 or 4 times, and it is eeeasier than with mage. And if u play with all level 4-5 units (like i did) u can just kill em all without being touch. Just cast fear, and see how they die one after another xD. (logically fear only is not enough, but playing with level 4-5 units its more easy).

loreangelicus
03-31-2010, 01:12 PM
U can do more "battle after battle" with warrior thatn with mage. Instead of mana, with warrior u can raise the rage, and the bloodthirst skill, i finished the game on impossible with warrior 3 or 4 times, and it is eeeasier than with mage. And if u play with all level 4-5 units (like i did) u can just kill em all without being touch. Just cast fear, and see how they die one after another xD. (logically fear only is not enough, but playing with level 4-5 units its more easy).

Hi N3MES1S, I have always wondered how a level 4-5 only army fares against mass-attacking bosses, namely Zilgadis/K'Tahu/Baal. Could you tell me your experience with regards to these bosses (ie. level you fought them, how many turns to end the battle, any losses, what units you used)?

I'm asking this because against other enemies, be they regular enemies or hero-enhanced ones, I think one is spoiled with a bunch of tactics that work towards no-loss; it seems it is only the boss fights against the top 3 bosses that require superior tactics.

ckdamascus
03-31-2010, 01:16 PM
It is funny you should mention that, lore. My previous impossible mage tries consisted of the Unholy Rainbow Dragon Force (red, black, green, bone) and demonologists.

With the proper tactics, can beat the normal stuff, but the bosses, eek, forget about it.

Well, maybe if I had the right resist gear...

Zechnophobe
03-31-2010, 06:00 PM
Hi N3MES1S, I have always wondered how a level 4-5 only army fares against mass-attacking bosses, namely Zilgadis/K'Tahu/Baal. Could you tell me your experience with regards to these bosses (ie. level you fought them, how many turns to end the battle, any losses, what units you used)?

I'm asking this because against other enemies, be they regular enemies or hero-enhanced ones, I think one is spoiled with a bunch of tactics that work towards no-loss; it seems it is only the boss fights against the top 3 bosses that require superior tactics.

Well, I don't really agree there. Pretty much each boss is defeated by stoneskin + Eviln. Or RepairDroid-RepairDroid.

The real difference between bosses and non bosses, is that your strategies for bosses MUST revolve around resurrecting your troops (especially the final three) because you simply can't keep them completely intact otherwise.

My experience is that Zilgadis can be beaten without massive army change (just need high resist magic gear). Ktahu and Baal though, require a different formation for zero loss, or slight modification for minor losses.

loreangelicus
03-31-2010, 07:13 PM
Well, I don't really agree there. Pretty much each boss is defeated by stoneskin + Eviln. Or RepairDroid-RepairDroid.

The real difference between bosses and non bosses, is that your strategies for bosses MUST revolve around resurrecting your troops (especially the final three) because you simply can't keep them completely intact otherwise.

My experience is that Zilgadis can be beaten without massive army change (just need high resist magic gear). Ktahu and Baal though, require a different formation for zero loss, or slight modification for minor losses.

Hmmm... a matter of terminology then? I consider a tactic superior if it flexible enough to work against most if not all of the enemies in the game to hand you either a quick or no-loss victory, moreso if it gives you both. And I would rank these criteria in this order:

1) flexibilty (it is of prime importance that it works against all enemy encounters)
2) no-loss (keeping your army intact without re-supplying)
3) speed (battles should be decisive and quick)

What do you consider as a superior tactic?

Zechnophobe
03-31-2010, 07:55 PM
I would consider a superior tactic the average of those things across all battles you fight.

Black-knight armies take a long time to finish off an opponent, so do repair-droids. They are flexible (due to being a resurrection strategy) but not horribly fast. Yes, in the three hardest battles, they remain effective. But I don't really consider it superior when it is so slow every other fight.

ckdamascus
03-31-2010, 08:23 PM
Please don't remind me of the horror of dual droid stacks with cross healing against physical resistant enemies.... :)

But, thanks for pointing it out, since I am not quite sure what is "fast" and what is not. Everyone has different standards.

I thought black knights were fast in killing (I mean, if you teleport them to the target) due to their Rising Fury super critical hits?

loreangelicus
03-31-2010, 09:46 PM
I hear you both Zechnophobe/ckdamascus. I scour these forums for good tactics, and I do try to experiment as well to see if I could discover and contribute something new.

ckdamascus, you may have seen some posts concerning solo strategies using black knights + stone skin + eviln. The strategy is effective, albeit a bit slow in finishing fights simply because you are using just one unit. This is somewhat compensated by the shard from Moro Dark that gives the unit unlimited retaliation, but the focused damage of enemies and enemy spell effects do take their toll on single unit tactics.

And this is the reason why I do not solo with black knights; you may be guaranteed to win all fights at no-loss (and even then, be prepared to change tactics a bit when you encounter heroes that dispel your stone skin, or those that cast spells like sheep), but you need to prepare for some long boss fights.

I have tried merging different tactics, namely black knights/bone dragons/droids, but the lineup has a large hiccup when taking on Zilgadis.

Oh well, maybe I'll try experimenting some more with different lineups/tactics if I do decide to play the game again as a mage.

ivra
04-01-2010, 11:56 AM
If the primary goal is a quick and efficient fight, then I think a mage using Armageddon + Time Back is the way to go. I was able to complete the fight against Moro in just 4 turns with no losses. Of course, the downside with this is that there is no time to dig for treasures and that you tend to be empty of mana when the battle is over... Also, the strategy does not work for bosses.

Out of curiosity, has any of you managed to down Moro in fewer turns with no losses, using another strategy?

More info here:
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=13933

loreangelicus
04-01-2010, 01:32 PM
If the primary goal is a quick and efficient fight, then I think a mage using Armageddon + Time Back is the way to go. I was able to complete the fight against Moro in just 4 turns with no losses. Of course, the downside with this is that there is no time to dig for treasures and that you tend to be empty of mana when the battle is over... Also, the strategy does not work for bosses.

Out of curiosity, has any of you managed to down Moro in fewer turns with no losses, using another strategy?

More info here:
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=13933

Hi ivra, I did get to read on your armageddon-time back tactic before, and was thinking of doing a variant of it if ever I do a mage playthrough.

I think that you may have something here, and maybe you just need to lessen the casting of armageddon so that you don't kill them TOO QUICKLY; to give you time to dig up treasure and generate mana.

Perhaps this tactic could be done with red dragons instead of archdemons? I have read somewhere of someone finishing the game with just a single stack of reds, and someone is even attempting to finish the game with just a single red dragon. :) That way, you don't need to change lineups against bosses, although I doubt doing a chain of armageddons would take out the high hit point bosses on impossible difficulty.

It took me 13 rounds to take out Moro Dark at no-loss using the undead-droid lineup (see attached screenshot). I did dig up all 3 chests though, and it was far from being a serious battle (1 attempt). It is also a sustainable tactic, you could easily end battles with max rage and mana, very handy if you are chain-fighting 5 consecutive hero/boss battles using Ancient Knowledge.

ivra
04-01-2010, 02:06 PM
The focus was on doing a quick battle. I only tested it. Since I want to dig every battle in my games, I agree that it needs to be slowed down so that to does not end too quickly - but that is easy with archdemons since they are the quickest unit in the game. In terms of the quickest possible battle (not including bosses) I cannot think of a quicker strategy. Armageddon + Time Back is very efficient.

I do not think it will work with a single red dragon. The reason is that a mage with a high int does too much damage even with Armageddon 1 (they have no resistance against astral damage). The dragon will die and the battle is over. But using a single red dragon and casting spells like Death Star and Geyser might work. The reason I bring a full stack of archdemons when using the Armageddon strategy is that almost half of the stack dies from friendly fire :-) In theory any stack will do as long as it survives the armageddon and the enemy attacks. It might even be doable using peasants! :-)

Zechnophobe
04-01-2010, 06:44 PM
I honestly don't recall exactly how long my last fight with Moro was. But a full power Fiery Phantoms each turn probably went through his black dragons pretty quick (Those are the hardest of his stacks to kill).

I am guessing it took more than 4 turns though. Maybe 5 or 6.

Also, in regards to Speed and Black Knights:

BK's do a lot of damage per hit, but you only get one attack (plus retaliation) per round, and it only hits one person. Black/red Dragons will almost always hit at least 2 people on their turn, and then light them on fire for more damage. You can also cast Oil Mist if you need more raw damage (Great against demons). In fact, all dragons have at least one way to hit more than one target on the first turn.

And between Bone and Black/Red, your opponents will often be both on fire, and poisoned.

Harlekin
04-03-2010, 09:16 PM
Hi all!

I started a hard warrior, because I basically rampaged through The Legend on normal difficulty, so I thought I need some challange. Well, I got it. I got so much I'm stucked:(

I completeley cleared the starting island, Scarlet Wind, and Bolo, and almost everything at Rusty Anchor. But I don't stand a chance at Verona, I totally got pwned there. So I went back to Rusty, sacrificed my army for a new navigation chart, but useless, because a) don't have enough money to fully refill my army b) I got pwned at those other two islands too...

I clearly do something wrong, because while you guys doing 7-day-no loss runs on impossible, I'm happy if I have the half of the army after a battle which I've had before.

I'm level 14, my army:
-2 evil beholders, so that i can put to sleep two stacks of units
- royal snakes
- ancient bears
- polar bears

Zechnophobe
04-03-2010, 10:39 PM
Well, I've said it many times over now: The hardest part of the game is the (Rusty/Early Verona) part of the game. You will find many people who got stuck in just that area. Search around a bit for more detailed advice, but here's a few quick tips:

1) Get the green dragon from Rusty Anchor
2) Pillage like mad. Sneak around enemies and take the loot near them, especially on verona which is very large and heavily laden with goodies.
3) Make sure you are using a good, generally high level, army. (Note, if you are losing a lot of units against slightly stronger foes, you are either in need of some better tactics, or in need of a better army.)

ckdamascus
04-05-2010, 06:44 PM
The focus was on doing a quick battle. I only tested it. Since I want to dig every battle in my games, I agree that it needs to be slowed down so that to does not end too quickly - but that is easy with archdemons since they are the quickest unit in the game. In terms of the quickest possible battle (not including bosses) I cannot think of a quicker strategy. Armageddon + Time Back is very efficient.

I do not think it will work with a single red dragon. The reason is that a mage with a high int does too much damage even with Armageddon 1 (they have no resistance against astral damage). The dragon will die and the battle is over. But using a single red dragon and casting spells like Death Star and Geyser might work. The reason I bring a full stack of archdemons when using the Armageddon strategy is that almost half of the stack dies from friendly fire :-) In theory any stack will do as long as it survives the armageddon and the enemy attacks. It might even be doable using peasants! :-)

Yes, armageddon is clearly what I was looking for in regards to a fast battle. Unfortunately the loss of mana after the battle does hurt the strategy somewhat with regards to really smooth and fast.

Perhaps... just perhaps a rage heavy mage can do it? Mana accelerator + calm rage = armageddon? Hopefully have enough reserve mana for time back too.

Then the rest time between battles might not be too bad.

With hero battles, I sometimes cannot get all the chests because it is too dangerous, especially if the enemy hero casts offensive spells.

I think once you get the key spells and runes, you don't "really" need chests / money.

That said, have you considered the gift mod pack? I believe I could get 70% astral resistance right now with the warrior with the crown and ghost armor. I can also get it with my mage game (woohoo, maybe I should go do that!).