What is better in a 1 unit army - 1 red or black dragon

[McSwan]

I noticed dbdov used a single black dragon in his single unit army run through and got to level 43 without having to change.

How do you deal with not being able to heal the black dragon, or does the black dragon take such a small amount of damage it doesn't matter until lev 43?

It would seem that reds are better from healing, but do they get hammered form hero spells, or something like that etc?

[joasoz]

He can answer himself, but from what I have read he switches depending on opponent.

If you play against an magic based enemy (upgrade of items for example), then a black dragon is perfect. If you play against a more physical one, then maybe a troll stack is better. Slap on protective magic and enjoy the show. :)

[DGDobrev]

The idea is that if you want your spells to do the job for you, you need a fast, high-initiative unit that will take minimal damage. The Black Dragon can fly from side to side and stall a slow army indefinitely till you hammer it with spells and post-effects.

As such, 1 Black Dragon is better than 1 Red Dragon. The red dragon is succeptible to enemy spells (Poison skull is awful due to 0% poison resistance, Geyser will hurt a lot due to his relatively low phys resistance), while the Black Dragon stops the enemy hero's spellcasting completely (all he can do is summon or buff) and nullifies the Evil Gremlins. Just to be on the safe side, keeping a secondary stack (even if you're not using it) of Trolls helps a lot if the AI decides to throw something unexpected at you.

You should also keep the BD as far away from enemy rangers as possible, so that they get their penalty - each ranged unit has a range, in which it inflicts full damage. When striking a target outside their range their damage is reduced for each cell outside their range.

It is about lvl 43-45 when the enemy ranger stacks grow big and numerous enough and the fear spell itself is unable to deal with them. This is when I had to swap the BD's for Black Knights for some battles. For example, 1 BD vs. 500 Shamans is winnable if the stacks are favorably set, but 1 BD vs. 500-600 shamans split in 5 stacks may give you quite some trouble and you'll be forced to keep 4 of them with fear on while you hammer the last one. In such fights it's simply much easier to swap BD's for a unit which you can ress if needed.

P.S> You can hardly imagine how many fights that single Black Dragon managed to escape with a single-digit Health value... So using the 1 BD tactics is very risky.

[TemjinGold]

For me it depends. I keep both because I like the Red Dragon's flame breath thing better than Black's as you can use it out of harms way. I can also phantom reds if needed or stone skin/heal. Heal can be useful as reds are much tougher than trolls minus the regen.

[tetleytea]

Haven't done Mage yet, but I would say Red, because of Mana Spring. Toy with the enemy at the end, let him hit you, spend a whopping 1 mana to heal. End the battle with all your mana. Next battle, have some rage to go with that mana.

[travelingoz]

It's easy to do the mana regen thing with one BD. I'm also up to level 43 and have been using similar tactics as DGD.
However, at the start of a battle, i usually cast Demon Portal, then when they emerge, cast Stone Skin and Mana Spring on them. Then i let them take a beating. If there are lots of ranged units or Shamans, then a level 3 Target on them also helps.
So while they're getting the crap beaten out of them, your BD is free to soar around and open chests etc. Towards the end of the battle, you can use the BD's Fire Breath on the stacks around the demon to get your range back up if you have the Paladin's Holy skill maxed. :grin:

[McSwan]

Arg, just realised, Is it necessary to get the pet dragon that gives you +1 initative to dragons? I got The +1 int pet dragon. Is there an item that gives you +1 init for flying creatures?

[travelingoz]

If you're going for the one dragon strategy then it certainly can't hurt! :rolleyes:

[Zechnophobe]

Just get Adrenaline instead, and choose the dragon that gives +crit chance.

[N3MES1S]

Red dragons always. They can be resurrected and can be improved by spells. Besides, red dragon are good against black dragon, but black dragons are not than good against red dragons (RD Are fire inmune). And, the red dragon special hability is more useful than the black dragon (almost for me). Maybe i always use red dragons cuz i have paladins and inquisit, but i really found em more useful than black dragons. I just changed royal griffins for assasins, and i almost never used the tank units lol, i only summon the avenging guards and let em to do the work. But god, i run out of royal griffins but assasins are amazing -.-. I love red dragons, but i dont use em too much, only to block enemy's way or for using the RD Hability.

[Metathron]

Red dragons always. They can be resurrected and can be improved by spells. Besides, red dragon are good against black dragon, but black dragons are not than good against red dragons (RD Are fire inmune). And, the red dragon special hability is more useful than the black dragon (almost for me). Maybe i always use red dragons cuz i have paladins and inquisit, but i really found em more useful than black dragons. I just changed royal griffins for assasins, and i almost never used the tank units lol, i only summon the avenging guards and let em to do the work. But god, i run out of royal griffins but assasins are amazing -.-. I love red dragons, but i dont use em too much, only to block enemy's way or for using the RD Hability.

I disagree. For a one stack army, the blacks are superior in my mind, especially against enemy heroes. Otherwise I prefer the reds mostly.

And how the heck are red dragons better against black dragons than the other way around? They both have fire resistance, I believe the blacks' is even higher though. Not that it matters, using blacks/reds to fight the same is nonsense in the first place.

[Zechnophobe]

Player controlled red dragons are a lot strong vs ai controlled black dragons than vice versa. This is simply because red dragons per leadership do more damage, and have just as much fire resistance (80%). Also it is slightly easier to do extra damage with red dragon special ability than black dragons.

Honestly though, both are awesome, and you should use them each!

[N3MES1S]

I disagree. For a one stack army, the blacks are superior in my mind, especially against enemy heroes. Otherwise I prefer the reds mostly.

And how the heck are red dragons better against black dragons than the other way around? They both have fire resistance, I believe the blacks' is even higher though. Not that it matters, using blacks/reds to fight the same is nonsense in the first place.

Not. While red dragons has fire inmunnity as special skill, black dragon hasnt But i proved a lot of times how 1 red dragon can do more than 50 dmg to another black dragon, and black dragon cant even do more than 15-20 dmg to the red dragon. Yes, dragons are fire resistance, but red dragons are the most fire resistance creatures on the game. As the mate said on the previous post, red dragons do more dmg per stack, and u can heal em and res em, and that is a good reason for using red dragons instead black ones. But depends on your style fight, i use to abuse of heal/resurrection spell, cuz my red dragons stack is limited to 18 over 19, and i cant find more red dragons. I only found 10 on reha, and thats all, the rest of the troop is filled with red dragon eggs lol. On the other hand, i have 60 black dragons on reha and 42 on nameless island.. a bit unbalanced.

[Zechnophobe]

Archdemons, phoenixes, red dragons and black dragons all start with 80 fire resistance. None is more resistant than the other. However, they do not share the same leadership cost.

I only point this out because the above post said that "red dragons are the most fire resistance creatures on the game" which is not true, they are tied with three others.

[N3MES1S]

Maybe, but i noticed that my red dragons hurts much more than my black dragons and the fire resistance is more present on red dragons. And black dragons, as i noticed die much more than red dragons.

[Metathron]

and the fire resistance is more present on red dragons.

That's interesting since it was stated above that they have the same fire resistance. ;)

And black dragons, as i noticed die much more than red dragons.

How about you try red dragons in a hero battle and then blacks against an enemy hero and then report back which is sturdier. :grin:

My point is that since enemy heroes constitute a substantial chunk of total battles, and more importantly those that yield the most experience, it's difficult to generalize that red dragons are better.

Anyhow, I would much rather see red dragons in the enemy army than blacks.

[Zechnophobe]

Black dragons, barring a slightly higher attack, only do 5% more damage per dragon than reds, but reds cost 500 less leadership, so you'll have 25% more reds than blacks. That's the reason they do more damage. BLack dragons have 130 more hit points, and higher defense. They also have more resistance to magic and physical. So for a single unit, the black dragon is a good deal stronger.

The main difference in survivability comes from the black dragon being unable to be healed or rezz'd. You can stone skin a red dragon to give it a lot more physical resistance, you can't with a black dragon. You can fully heal the red with level 3 heal.. you can't with a black dragon.

Anyhow, I just want to set the record straight on this.

[DGDobrev]

Well, I'm thinking about a playthrough in which the Reds may prove better than the blacks for a 1-unit army. I've been looking at the Judgment day paladin and with the astral resist introduced in the gift bag, I'm thinking Red Dragons + Armageddon + heal/turn back time. The idea is: Armageddon will hurt them a bit, but at least they won't suffer from the burning post-effect.

As for a backup, I'll see. BlackKnights are the safe choice, but I'm thinking Paladins due to the medal that boosts the Paladins/Inquis/Priests damage. We'll see. Now the only thing I need is a good game with good item setup.

[KongMysen]

I've been playing a no-loss impossible mage with a single stack of either black or Red dragons.
they are both equally useful, but to different extends.

In all but one item upgrade I used the Blacks and allowed my Demon Portals to do all the dirty work...
In the mask of hate upgrade, I switched to reds due to 20 Arch demons constantly halving stack on round 1.
Excorsism lvl 2 and Demon portal on round 1, Excorsicm lvl 2 and Time Back on round 2. On round 3 the Arch Demons couldn't halve any longer. Obviosly this wouldn't work on Black Dragons, but in every other upgrade, they were superior to the Red Dragon.

In some hero fights vs a high intellect Geyser caster I chose Blacks and used either damaging spells or Demon Portals to win IF and only IF it was an army with mostly melees. In a fight vs lots of ranged units, a buffed Red Dragon would turn out to be better. Its just a pain in these battles because you need to constantly keep your Dragon buffed and at full hp to survive the Geysers.
With a BD it's much, much easier since you can use your spells to destroy and kill instead of protecting... Only works in some battles though.

My 2 cents on the overall usage of the dragons, my vote goes to the Red.

However in a single stack fight they are equally usefull.... ... imho of course

[N3MES1S]

Black dragons, barring a slightly higher attack, only do 5% more damage per dragon than reds, but reds cost 500 less leadership, so you'll have 25% more reds than blacks. That's the reason they do more damage. BLack dragons have 130 more hit points, and higher defense. They also have more resistance to magic and physical. So for a single unit, the black dragon is a good deal stronger.

The main difference in survivability comes from the black dragon being unable to be healed or rezz'd. You can stone skin a red dragon to give it a lot more physical resistance, you can't with a black dragon. You can fully heal the red with level 3 heal.. you can't with a black dragon.

Anyhow, I just want to set the record straight on this.

The thing is, maybe black dragons are better for 1 unit troop (but i tested on the battlefield and i cant kill a red dragon with a black one, he dies first..even when black has more def and more hit points...) , but on mid-high levels is a waste to use black dragons. They cost too much ls, and red dragons are more useful. The Black Dragons special hability is almost useless all the time when i fight with black dragons. And u dont need to cast heal and stone skin everytime on red dragons, they die almost like black dragons. On a strong geyser user (level 3) it doesnt matter if u have red or black, they die anyways lol. And for example, black dragons are horribly against baal. Red Dragons are much better choice if someone is going to use BD/RD for fight baal...

[DGDobrev]

"On a strong geyser user (level 3) it doesnt matter if u have red or black, they die anyways lol."

That assumption is completely incorrect. The Reds may die, but the Blacks are immune to magic, so the geyser won't hurt them at all. I have seen heroes casting geyser vs. single black dragon stack, but in the end, it's a wasted amount of mana because nothing changes on the battlefield.

Against Baal, both Red and Black Dragons are a really poor choice. Why would one want to use a fire-based attack creatures versus something that is 80% fire resistant? Or even against something that's 50% resistant (like most of the demons Baal summons)? If one does, it clearly shows a significant lack of tactical thinking on their part. Even peasants will be better than red/black dragons for this battle, as both of them will eventually die, but at least the peasants will inflict some damage due to their numbers and physical-based attack :)

[Zechnophobe]

How exactly did you have a red and black dragon, one of each, fight each other Nemesis? One HAD to be under your control, and one not. The one under your control has all your attack and defense boosts (And maybe resistances.. guardian angel? Leather dress?) The one under your control should be an easy winner, even if you never touch your spellbook or dragon.

Also, You shouldn't be losing any red or black dragons, unless you are being careless with them.

[dashcunning]

but i tested on the battlefield and i cant kill a red dragon with a black one, he dies first..even when black has more def and more hit points...

You are either exceedingly unlucky, doing something wrong, or forgetting/omitting some vital information. All else being equal, a black's normal attack does ~30 to a red and a red's does ~18 to a black. A black's special does ~30 to a red and a red's does ~20 to a black. Both specials have the same recharge time and both can easily be used whenever available to attack the other. A black has 130 more health than a red. Your claim doesn't add up.

[TemjinGold]

Reds are superior to blacks except when your opponent has spells.

[N3MES1S]

How exactly did you have a red and black dragon, one of each, fight each other Nemesis? One HAD to be under your control, and one not. The one under your control has all your attack and defense boosts (And maybe resistances.. guardian angel? Leather dress?) The one under your control should be an easy winner, even if you never touch your spellbook or dragon.

Also, You shouldn't be losing any red or black dragons, unless you are being careless with them.

Just playing different games with 2 save games on sheterra (ultrax). I only used black dragons to test wat im talking about (i really prefer red dragons, they are really more useful). In the "real life" i only used red dragons (and actually i never lose any red dragon to a geyser hero). I cant remember if a geyser hits a black dragon (dont know if BDs are mind spells inmune or just magic resistance but geyser is not a mind spell). Anyways, at the beginning (when u have low number unit stacks) , black dragons are better option, but in mid-later game, red dragons are much better. Against Baal, using dragons is almost stupid, i know but it really doesnt matter to me if i use black dragons or red dragons or just dont use em, cuz i always kill baal too easily (well i didnt try on impossible yet but i think im out for now of kb -.-). Usually, i have a second stack in reserve with emerald green dragons, royal griffins, assasins or something else and i use em with baal.

[KongMysen]

I just won a no-loss Mage game, and I've been playing single stack most of the game. I Kited a little and found the Shield of Rekross on Verona + a Call Colloseus scroll, which I used for trolls.

My Lineup was:

trolls first...
Then dual stack of Black and Reds
The the biggest part of the game with EITHER a black or a red dragon
At Shettera and Reha + bosses I had a single stack of Black Knights.

game ended with Black Knights as my champion with 45% dmg
Black and Red dragon each did 20%

rest was divided amongst Trolls+ Demon Portal troops.

My point is, I guess the dragons were equally usefull, since they ended up doing the same dmg. I switched troops to get the no-loss battles and I suppose the dragons have been used 50/50