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basis
01-01-2010, 08:54 AM
Hi all, playing my first game in KB:AP.

Playing normal difficulty, mage, leadership about 3.2K
army setup: normal bears, polar bears, 15 or 16 black beholders, 1 dragon (black? the first dragon unit we find I think on Bolo island), 2 cyclops.

I think my attack is 1, defense is 5 and intel is about 9. I know it is pretty crappy stats. my pet dragon is level 16. I cannot remember my level.

I cleared most of Rusty except for 2 units, Zig-zag and a group of Thorns that are guarding some treasure. When I right-click on Zig-Zag it says Lethal to me. And the Thorns that guard the treasure on Rusty is also Lethal.

I can go to Verona, but the units there are also Lethal to Invincible as well. I think I cleared most of the Strong units in Verona, but they town is protected by Very Strong or Lethal units.

I didn't know about map kiting until I read about it in this forum, but is there any other way to defeat those units on Rusty Island? Or advise me what I maybe doing wrong. Or should I be learning some spell that I may have missed? I have Order at lvl 2, Distortion at lvl 1 and Chaos at lvl 1.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Urbz
01-01-2010, 04:09 PM
Hi all, playing my first game in KB:AP.

Playing normal difficulty, mage, leadership about 3.2K
army setup: normal bears, polar bears, 15 or 16 black beholders, 1 dragon (black? the first dragon unit we find I think on Bolo island), 2 cyclops.

I think my attack is 1, defense is 5 and intel is about 9. I know it is pretty crappy stats. my pet dragon is level 16. I cannot remember my level.

I cleared most of Rusty except for 2 units, Zig-zag and a group of Thorns that are guarding some treasure. When I right-click on Zig-Zag it says Lethal to me. And the Thorns that guard the treasure on Rusty is also Lethal.

I can go to Verona, but the units there are also Lethal to Invincible as well. I think I cleared most of the Strong units in Verona, but they town is protected by Very Strong or Lethal units.

I didn't know about map kiting until I read about it in this forum, but is there any other way to defeat those units on Rusty Island? Or advise me what I maybe doing wrong. Or should I be learning some spell that I may have missed? I have Order at lvl 2, Distortion at lvl 1 and Chaos at lvl 1.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Whats going wrong? I assume your units are dying, if so i'd say try to throw in some ressurection power, inquisitors are the most common to get but often after you got your 2nd stone you can buy paladins at the mage tower on the first island and if you're lucky you could also try demonologists.
On normal i'd say it should be doable without mapkiting, i finished the game without it at least and imo it feels alot more rewarding to play through the game like you should, at least for the first playthrough.

basis
01-01-2010, 11:11 PM
Yes my units are dying. Especially being swarmed by superior numbers. Like one of the enemy units had like 700+ Devilfishes and they took out my black dragon in like 1 bite. And thanks for the advice on using units with resurrection.

btw does resurrecting dead units count towards the 'no-loss' battle medal? Another one of those tricks which I didn't know about at the start of the game till I read the forums. I am still at 7/10 of my 'no-loss' medal.

Elwin
01-01-2010, 11:14 PM
yep it does count

littleduckie
01-03-2010, 01:01 AM
Yes my units are dying. Especially being swarmed by superior numbers. Like one of the enemy units had like 700+ Devilfishes and they took out my black dragon in like 1 bite. And thanks for the advice on using units with resurrection.

btw does resurrecting dead units count towards the 'no-loss' battle medal? Another one of those tricks which I didn't know about at the start of the game till I read the forums. I am still at 7/10 of my 'no-loss' medal.

Don't charge the enemy.. in the instance of devilfish, the black dragon's range (or speed rather) is very much superior so "kite" it around the map (Slow spell helps) while you whittle it down with ranged units (that's a weakness of your setup I think.. too few ranged units... and three "tank" types).

Also would suggest going for units with more interesting abilities (like Demonlogists) that will provide you more tactical options. As a mage you do NOT want to play a "brute"-force attempt to the game by having units that directly the enemy due to your low leadership.

Nenea
01-05-2010, 01:30 AM
I'm play too and i stuck but after my battle is with units who is week or equal strengt with me.
If have no choice i fighting wit units who is more strong then i.
My great units is Cyclops and I have 5. I try to save to no die because is archer and is rare.

Because i search and i fight with troups more week then me i have 8/10 of my 'no-loss' medal :) (this is for basis ;) )
Anyway after any battle i suply my lost units.
God Luck ;)

Zechnophobe
01-05-2010, 01:38 AM
Hmm, you have 5 cyclops' IN YOUR ARMY or 5 total you can buy from? Because if you only have 8/10 in grand strategy, and 7000 leadership, you are getting a fair bit behind!

Remember that those cyclopses have high resistance and HP, and do more damage in melee than range. Go to melee with them, and let everything hide behind. It is a great trick early game, especially since cyclopses are plentiful in Bola a lot of the time.

Nenea
01-05-2010, 01:50 AM
Yes, in Bola island was 5 cyclops and i buy'it all. Leadership of one cyclops is 1400 and i have 5 but i need more because my leadership is 8775.
And where i can find pirates ?

TemjinGold
01-05-2010, 02:52 PM
Hi all, playing my first game in KB:AP.

Playing normal difficulty, mage, leadership about 3.2K
army setup: normal bears, polar bears, 15 or 16 black beholders, 1 dragon (black? the first dragon unit we find I think on Bolo island), 2 cyclops.

I think my attack is 1, defense is 5 and intel is about 9. I know it is pretty crappy stats. my pet dragon is level 16. I cannot remember my level.

I cleared most of Rusty except for 2 units, Zig-zag and a group of Thorns that are guarding some treasure. When I right-click on Zig-Zag it says Lethal to me. And the Thorns that guard the treasure on Rusty is also Lethal.

I can go to Verona, but the units there are also Lethal to Invincible as well. I think I cleared most of the Strong units in Verona, but they town is protected by Very Strong or Lethal units.

I didn't know about map kiting until I read about it in this forum, but is there any other way to defeat those units on Rusty Island? Or advise me what I maybe doing wrong. Or should I be learning some spell that I may have missed? I have Order at lvl 2, Distortion at lvl 1 and Chaos at lvl 1.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

I can't speak for normal as I've only played impossible but as a mage, you generally need to get used to facing stacks that are Lethal or tougher. Mages aren't about brute force so you're not supposed to have equal numbers to begin with. Therefore, how you built your character is far more important for a mage than it is for the other two classes. What did you spend your talent runes on in each tree and what spells do you have?

For my current mage, the key spells I use are:

Demon Portal
Fear
Stone Skin
Mana Spring
Trap
Phantom
Calm Rage
Fire Arrow (because it stays cheap)

I use more than that (Doom, Slow, and Avenging Angel come to mind along with others) but those are the ones I keep coming back to.

Spells I don't even scribe and just sell:

Call of Nature (worthless due to how small the stacks are)
Bless
Precision
(that spell that gives your unit fire damage; can't remember name)

There are probably more, I just can't think of them now.

Warriors and Paladins are about a lot of brute force and crushing the enemy directly. Mages are all about position and tactics. WHERE your guys are standing are often more important than how tough they are. For example, my L22 mage just took out Peter Drayn (on impossible, he is a L34 hero with two stacks of 56 demonesses and roughly 7000 total peasants in 3 stacks; Peter also has 250 mana and casts Ancient Phoenix and Demon Portal like a madman) on Verona with her 1-troll army (1 stack of 1 troll and no other units) in daylight (so the troll can't even regen.) Didn't need to be a troll. In fact, any stack of L5 units could accomplish it with no loss (I have 4 trolls but only use one in most fights to maximize dragon level.) That obviously cannot be done on brute force even with spells (Peter very quickly has like 10-12 stacks or more total on the board. Even with Higher Magic, which I have at L2, it is impossible to keep up with him on numbers.)

Planning, precision (err... not the spell of course!), and positioning is key when playing a mage. I find it strange that so many people say the mage is the hardest to play on impossible but I guess it boils down to play style. I've tried a warrior and frankly was bored with how "straightforward" her play style was.

fable
01-05-2010, 05:44 PM
For example, my L22 mage just took out Peter Drayn (on impossible, he is a L34 hero with two stacks of 56 demonesses and roughly 7000 total peasants in 3 stacks; Peter also has 250 mana and casts Ancient Phoenix and Demon Portal like a madman) on Verona with her 1-troll army (1 stack of 1 troll and no other units) in daylight (so the troll can't even regen.) Didn't need to be a troll. In fact, any stack of L5 units could accomplish it with no loss (I have 4 trolls but only use one in most fights to maximize dragon level.) That obviously cannot be done on brute force even with spells (Peter very quickly has like 10-12 stacks or more total on the board. Even with Higher Magic, which I have at L2, it is impossible to keep up with him on numbers.)

Wow... how?

TemjinGold
01-05-2010, 07:13 PM
It's difficult to explain in words but it's mostly understanding positioning (I'd make a vid clip of such a fight for you if I knew how.) Before every fight, I never make a move before studying the battlefield first. How are our units arranged from the start? Where will my opponent likely move? How many ways can his units reach mine? How can I stop/alter their progress towards me? These are some of the questions you need to ask yourself.

The key on impossible is to use the terrain to your advantage by dividing and conquering. Find ways to splinter your opponents forces or impede them from reaching you (Demon Portals and Traps are great for this because they can't move past one.)

A good analogy to this is a game of chess: It's not about how many pieces you have, it's about how many DEVELOPED pieces you have in useful positions on the board. In AP, my opponent might outnumber me 5 to 1 but if my units create a "chokepoint" such that he can only reach me with 2 of his stacks, then his "advantage" is moot. If I can place my units and spells in such a way that the AI is forced to traverse a set path (not because of shoddy AI but because it's the only way to get to me) then numerical advantage is more or less moot. This is the thing I love about AP more than HOMM or any other so-called "strategy game." Strategy is not about having more units and running him over. It should be about creative use of few resources to overcome impossible odds. And that's exactly what AP on impossible with a mage allows me to do.

lauvhk
01-06-2010, 02:17 AM
So the demoness never use infernal exchange in the battle?

TemjinGold
01-06-2010, 03:01 AM
Nope. Both demoness stacks stepped on traps in their first turn. Once the 2nd turn rolled around, my demon portal stack was deemed the much larger threat.

Right now, my mage has wiped out every stack from Debir to Rusty. On Verona, there are 3 fights left that are too tough for me to crack--Demenion, Marquis, and the Champion. Every other stack on Verona, heroes or not, have fallen to either the 1-troll army or the 2-black dragon army. The champion I'm pretty sure I can take if I can start the fight with full rage. When I tried him to see what he was like (with no rage), I only killed half his army before he killed 1 of my two dragons.

loreangelicus
01-06-2010, 01:34 PM
Nope. Both demoness stacks stepped on traps in their first turn. Once the 2nd turn rolled around, my demon portal stack was deemed the much larger threat.

Right now, my mage has wiped out every stack from Debir to Rusty. On Verona, there are 3 fights left that are too tough for me to crack--Demenion, Marquis, and the Champion. Every other stack on Verona, heroes or not, have fallen to either the 1-troll army or the 2-black dragon army. The champion I'm pretty sure I can take if I can start the fight with full rage. When I tried him to see what he was like (with no rage), I only killed half his army before he killed 1 of my two dragons.

How many turns on average do the battles last using this type of strategy?

TemjinGold
01-06-2010, 02:10 PM
Surprisingly, not many. For most of the Verona fights, I can win by turn 5-6 (especially if my portal yields demons/executioners as being surrounded usually means they attack as many as 4 times per round not counting retaliation!) I usually drag it out to 10 tho as I don't have Fire Mage L3 yet (by spamming Oil Mist.) The tough hero fights though, such as Peter, can take upwards of 20 turns.

The trouble most people have with mages is that they are filling out all 5 slots with troops. That actually makes the fights HARDER since my spells do most of the damage rather than my units, so I only use one stack of units that simply won't die as easy. Generally, I only need to keep my units alive 1 turn before the AI's attention to turned to where I place my portals as the summoned stack is always exponentially larger leadership-wise than my actual units. For the really tough fights, I pull out the troll because I can cast Invisibility on him first turn before throwing up the portal.

loreangelicus
01-06-2010, 03:35 PM
I've never played mage, but I'm beginning to understand now. I play paladin on impossible, and actually got got a pretty good save game start wherein the duplicate Bolo navi map in Scarlet always gives me Call Colossus. Unfortunately, the paladin does not have enough spell power (ie. intellect) and mana regeneration to employ such a tactic; and this is not even counting the inability to raise Distortion and Chaos high enough at the starting levels. Sure, I could still solo unit the first few islands without losses, but the best I could probably do is to get Order/Heal to level 2 and spend 50+ turns flying around my Red Dragon and throwing a breath attack from a distance every couple of turns. :)

I assume rage generation is not a problem for you given that you have "sacrificial lambs" to dish out pain; rage is critical for digging up chests for wanderer scrolls, specifically Ancient Knowledge. I think the problem encountered by other mage players is that they don't get lucky with spells and units. I believe the early game solo unit strategy for mages relies heavily on level 5 units being available, be it in shops or via Call Colossus. Even with a full complement of spells, is there a suitable level 1-4 unit that could be used to solo?

jake21
01-06-2010, 04:19 PM
Well for me I don't really need level 5 units; I need units that will create distractions (royal griffons, royal thorns, demologists, shamans...). A few key spells also help (not all of them but at least a few) (gift, fire rain, phantom, time back, ...)
--
In my current 'hard' game up to (and including verona) I have had almost no luck with troups and spells. I didn't help my cause by vertically in damage spells skills but I in the end it probably was the best option simply due to lack of spells found.
--
At the same time i started a normal mage (since the hard mage is such slow pace) and that game is utterly breeze not just due to easier skill level but before reaching verona (and verona was a gold mind once I started exploring it) I had royal thorns, royal griffons, demologists, fire rain, phantom, gift, ...
-
This ignores items though in my hard game items haven't been that bad (I started with the +10 mind (banner) AND +10 warrior rune (sword); though it drained most of my cash) and found a +3int/stuff helm long with a +3 defense/+2 int shield.
--
Still debating what to do with the guard. The elven guy is 4int but not sure 4int is all it is cut up to when compared with 700 leadership. Also the 700 ledership guy allows me to use better items.

I've never played mage, but I'm beginning to understand now. I play paladin on impossible, and actually got got a pretty good save game start wherein the duplicate Bolo navi map in Scarlet always gives me Call Colossus. Unfortunately, the paladin does not have enough spell power (ie. intellect) and mana regeneration to employ such a tactic; and this is not even counting the inability to raise Distortion and Chaos high enough at the starting levels. Sure, I could still solo unit the first few islands without losses, but the best I could probably do is to get Order/Heal to level 2 and spend 50+ turns flying around my Red Dragon and throwing a breath attack from a distance every couple of turns. :)

I assume rage generation is not a problem for you given that you have "sacrificial lambs" to dish out pain; rage is critical for digging up chests for wanderer scrolls, specifically Ancient Knowledge. I think the problem encountered by other mage players is that they don't get lucky with spells and units. I believe the early game solo unit strategy for mages relies heavily on level 5 units being available, be it in shops or via Call Colossus. Even with a full complement of spells, is there a suitable level 1-4 unit that could be used to solo?

jake21
01-06-2010, 04:22 PM
yea another spell i don't have; invisibility. What would you do without invisibilty and portal.

Surprisingly, not many. For most of the Verona fights, I can win by turn 5-6 (especially if my portal yields demons/executioners as being surrounded usually means they attack as many as 4 times per round not counting retaliation!) I usually drag it out to 10 tho as I don't have Fire Mage L3 yet (by spamming Oil Mist.) The tough hero fights though, such as Peter, can take upwards of 20 turns.

The trouble most people have with mages is that they are filling out all 5 slots with troops. That actually makes the fights HARDER since my spells do most of the damage rather than my units, so I only use one stack of units that simply won't die as easy. Generally, I only need to keep my units alive 1 turn before the AI's attention to turned to where I place my portals as the summoned stack is always exponentially larger leadership-wise than my actual units. For the really tough fights, I pull out the troll because I can cast Invisibility on him first turn before throwing up the portal.

lauvhk
01-06-2010, 05:19 PM
I understood the potential of single slot army back in my last and completed game in KB:TL. But soon after I realized that managing a full 5 slots army was actually far more challenging, that now I would refrain myself using single stack approach.

As for using level 4 unit, Elwin completes and documents somewhere on the forum an impossible (Paladin?) game by using Black Knight only. Remember though he does map kiting which might not be your soup.

loreangelicus
01-06-2010, 05:24 PM
Still debating what to do with the guard. The elven guy is 4int but not sure 4int is all it is cut up to when compared with 700 leadership. Also the 700 ledership guy allows me to use better items.

I think the greatest boon of Elenhel, the elven companion, is that he gives you a random wanderer scroll every 30 battles. From the forum posts, you need around 5+ Ancient Knowledge scrolls to have a chance of reaching level 60. Else, even with max Learning and two Hand of Necropolis and medals to pump your XP gain by +50% per battle, you still won't reach level 60 even if you killed all enemies in the game. Even if not going for level 60, there are a lot of very useful wanderer scrolls (Call of Death, Call Colossus, Titan Sword, etc.)

loreangelicus
01-06-2010, 05:40 PM
I understood the potential of single slot army back in my last and completed game in KB:TL. But soon after I realized that managing a full 5 slots army was actually far more challenging, that now I would refrain myself using single stack approach.

As for using level 4 unit, Elwin completes and documents somewhere on the forum an impossible (Paladin?) game by using Black Knight only. Remember though he does map kiting which might not be your soup.

Correct, but in a 7-day game this is a mid to late game tactic; unless of course you get Black Knights (earliest I've seen them spawn is Scarlet shipwreck) AND the Eviln spell early on.

TemjinGold
01-06-2010, 05:47 PM
Well for me I don't really need level 5 units; I need units that will create distractions (royal griffons, royal thorns, demologists, shamans...). A few key spells also help (not all of them but at least a few) (gift, fire rain, phantom, time back, ...)
--
In my current 'hard' game up to (and including verona) I have had almost no luck with troups and spells. I didn't help my cause by vertically in damage spells skills but I in the end it probably was the best option simply due to lack of spells found.
--
At the same time i started a normal mage (since the hard mage is such slow pace) and that game is utterly breeze not just due to easier skill level but before reaching verona (and verona was a gold mind once I started exploring it) I had royal thorns, royal griffons, demologists, fire rain, phantom, gift, ...
-
This ignores items though in my hard game items haven't been that bad (I started with the +10 mind (banner) AND +10 warrior rune (sword); though it drained most of my cash) and found a +3int/stuff helm long with a +3 defense/+2 int shield.
--
Still debating what to do with the guard. The elven guy is 4int but not sure 4int is all it is cut up to when compared with 700 leadership. Also the 700 ledership guy allows me to use better items.

That may be true on lower difficulties but distractions won't work for too long on impossible. My mage had a tad over 5000 leadership but the stacks I fought ranged from 10k on the low end to 40k on the upper end. I've pretty much stopped using Phantom because it's not cost effective--practically any one stack of the enemy's will one-shot a phantom stack I make that isn't of L5 units.

There isn't much luck involved in getting the stuff I'm using. The one thing I lucked out on is finding the Trap spell early. That was it.

Since you had trouble with your mage game and I won't have time to check out your save till tonight (as I'm at work), I can detail how I progressed in my current game as some of that might help you:

1) I picked the Green dragon. If you don't and still want Treasure Searcher as early as possible, the trick is to dismiss all of your starting units during the training and dismiss 4 of the 5 paladins you start with. Now do the first fight with dragon kick while having your paladin just defend and heal himself when needed. The second fight is trickier but if you kill the royal thorn with a few fire arrows to stop him from spawning more troops, the rest of the fight plays out the same as the first. If done correctly, your dragon should have just enough exp to level up after the two training fights. Then be sure to pick Treasure Searcher (it and Stone Wall will always come up at Level 2.)

2) Loot the first few islands you have access to but don't engage in ANY battles yet, even if you think you can win. If you are lucky, you will have access to Rusty from Bolo. Make sure to get the Stone from Bolo and use it plus turn it in. My mage had roughly 1000 leadership at this point after using and turning in the stone (I found zero +leadership items.)

3) Return to Debir. Sell everything you find that you won't use (sell any Wanderer Scrolls too except for may Call of Colossus if you get that; I was never lucky enough to find that scroll this early.) If you had access to Rusty, you should have somewhere around 55k gold now. This will allow you to buy a good starting artifact from Debir. If not, you will have roughly 36k gold. I've had games with both. Make sure you get and use Jimmy's Shark Tooth as well.

4) Distribute your talent runes. Ignore Order and Transmute for now. 28 mana starting is plenty if you don't screw up trap HP count and there are no useful Order spells for a mage in the beginning. Rush down towards Higher Magic (1) as that will help a lot with medal spam in the beginning. On the Might tree, try to get Rage Control (1). For the Mind tree, get Scouting 1 or 2, the thing under (forgot the name) to 1, and Learning as high as you can go. Learning gives Intellect so you'll eventually want it, so you might as well get it as early as possible.

5) Buy 1 full stack of Inquisitors. Travel to Scarlett and do the undead fight that leads to guaranteed Archmages (either 3 or 4.) If you split your stack into 3-4 stacks (so they can resurrect each other) using Trap as the killing blow for every stack, you should have no losses and 5 ticks on the trap medal.

6) Buy all the archmages you get access to. Split them into stacks of 1 and put all your inquisitors back into 1 stack. Now go back to Debir and do every fight. Have the mages spam Magic Shield every chance they get and have your hero, dragon kick, and inquisitors kill stacks with trap. When you get down to 1 stack that you can control, start spamming Stone Skin instead (to build the counter) till Turn 10. Then trap the last remaining stack after Turn 10. Wait for your mana to fully recuperate before each fight. This "army" is good enough to clear out all of the non-hero fights on Debir and half the stacks on Scarlett with no losses on impossible if you lay your traps right and plan. By this time, if you were diligent in trapping and grinding guardian angel medal, you should easily have Trap III (I got this after fight 22 this time) and Guardian Angel III (this one goes fast since your counter rises by like 20 or more each fight.)

7) Once you have those, switch to spamming Oil Mist for fire mage. You now have a couple of choices. If you have a Leadership item, you probably have around the 1900 needed for a Green Dragon. You can go grab the free one on Rusty then. If you don't and Bolo sells Cyclopses, you should have enough leadership for 1 of those. Either way, your goal is to get yourself to 1900 leadership to use that Green dragon. With it, use 4 shooter stacks (archmages, inquisitors, plus whatever else you have that's good) with the dragon and combined with trap, you should be able to exterminate up through Rusty (go in order.) If you're having trouble, build up Mystic egg and make sure to get Summoner (3). This will open up Verona.

8 ) Once you get to Verona, do the fight that blocks Montero, then loot both Verona and Montero. Of note in Montero is the Abyss quest because the reward I believe is always an artifact called "Living Book" (since he mentions it in his dialogue.) This item gives +2 Int and +20% to demon portal and call of nature. It also gives you a scroll of demon portal for 1 crystal (which I needed as I couldn't find this spell.)


There's usually at least one place in Montero that carries trolls. If not, cyclopses work just fine. In fact, they are better than trolls in daylight as they have more resist and I've never needed to heal either. Pretty much any L5 unit works though I don't like Giants as I consider them hugely overpriced in gold and leadership. I didn't find black dragons till I killed Odim in Verona (and that place only sold 2.) You now have everything you need to terrorize Verona and beyond with just 1 L5 unit.

As you can see, very little of this requires you to luck out in getting something.

Edit: Forgot to mention. Jimmy's 700 leadership seems great at first but it's actually pretty terrible considering that you'll reach 10k or more leadership by mid-game alone. If it were percentage based, it'd be worth something but wasting an item on him for a static 700 seems like a waste. I much prefer to drink the thing myself for 150 so that I can take Elenhel instead.

Edit 2: Wow, I just realized I remembered something wrong. The Abyss quest is in Tekron, not Montero. Though the Tekron map is not guarded on Montero so you should still have no trouble getting to it.

Arilian
01-07-2010, 08:33 AM
I did almost exatly the same with my impossible mage :)

Though i had access to 3 kind of dragons and archdemons mid game (lvl20) and time stop (25) so i used red+emerald+black+archdemon.

For harder, anti.hero fights i did put 2 stack to reserve or even 1 to a castle and fight with only one, but for normal stacks the bigger army ensure faster victories. It does not have any advantage over "real time" time saving but it was important to me :)

basis
01-07-2010, 03:48 PM
Thanks to TemjinGold, loreangelicus, jake21 and others for sharing your strategies. I have to admit, I am overwhelmed, both by the complexities and to some extent the terminologies used. Another reason why I might be having trouble is because I decided to play my first KB game as a mage instead of something simpler... yeah I didn't even play KB:TL, so i may have missed out on some earlier 'known' strategies.

But ok, I learned a few things and that is map kiting to open up new areas that normally wouldn't be available, and thus looting those islands while evading their guards. Then when I am stronger, return to tackle those challenges.

But I have a few questions, where does one get the Green dragon units on Rusty? I don't recall ever seeing them, or are they where ZigZag is guarding (one of the boss fights)?

Also I didn't realize traps are that useful. I thought you could only cast 1 at a time and yet use that to block a unit's path? I find that rather amazing actually, wouldn't the unit deliberately walk around it? Or how does one spam enough traps, especially in battles where there are no obstacles?

As for my current mage's spells, I have probably all the regular ones because I recklessly learned all the scrolls :( And yes my play style was one of a brute force mage, going for offensive spells (Fireball, Pole Axe, Fire arrows, pain mirror, ) rather than others that TemjinGold mentioned (Fear, Magic Spring etc). I certainly don't have Demon Portal and don't recall seeing any merchant that sold that scroll. I think one of my other problems is knowing how to effectively use these 'non-offensive' spells and with which type of units or against which type of units. For instance, I was under the impression not to use Magic Spring because if a unit dies, then I'll loose the no-loss battle count. So in my mind I would think "what's the point of buffing a unit and letting it get hit where there is a possibility of a unit death"?

I will try to share my mage's skill set: sorry for the large image sizes
http://i48.tinypic.com/2emhs3c.jpg
http://i45.tinypic.com/bg3t5.jpg
http://i49.tinypic.com/291cn0n.jpg

basis
01-07-2010, 03:52 PM
my spell book
http://i50.tinypic.com/8y7ujb.jpg
http://i49.tinypic.com/1zmnw48.jpg
http://i49.tinypic.com/160790k.jpg
http://i47.tinypic.com/33ct11i.jpg

basis
01-07-2010, 03:54 PM
my current map of verona, and yes I did beat the fight to Montero but loss a few units there.
http://i47.tinypic.com/2epkniq.jpg

and the other maps I have.
http://i47.tinypic.com/f39hr4.jpg

and here's my current 'army' which I do have space for more because my leadership grew while I was off exploring Montero.
http://i47.tinypic.com/ay0f9c.jpg

well i welcome any further suggestions that'll help me learn new ways to defeat the challenges in this game. I get all cautious when I start seeing all the mobs with the words 'Lethal' and above.

TemjinGold
01-07-2010, 04:33 PM
Hey there, thanks for the detailed images! :)

The way I've built a mage is to always focus on Distortion 3, Summoning 3, Chaos 3 and Higher Magic in that order. For artifacts, I focus on Int, mana, and mana regen stuff. For my dragon, I focus on getting Mana Accel up to make up for my loss of Concentration (I left it at the 2nd highest level, which nets me 19 mana for 16 rage as I find that much better than 25 for 25.) Since Demon Portal 3 costs 35 mana a pop, the couple of points a round that Concentration gets me is peanuts (I eventually get this skill but not till after I've gotten all the spell upgrade ones and Higher Magic first.)

Distortion is the single strongest school by far. My Level 3 trap does up to 5500 damage and poisons while my Level 3 Fireball (regret getting this) only does 2900. With Stone Skin Level 3 and Mana Spring Level 3 (+15 defense!), my Demons/Executioners that I summon can defeat stacks that are 3-4 times stronger than it even though my mage's attack/defense are a crappy 5/1.

My personal opinion is that I find Glory to be a complete waste of runes. Due to my playstyle, I rarely use full leadership to begin with (I'm running around with 1 troll when I have over 8k leadership.) The Attack point in Might is a waste too. 1 extra attack is not worth the 4 red runes you need to spend for a mage due to how few of those you get to begin with. Instead, they are put to better use on Dragon Training and more importantly, Anger (this is important to get rage for Mana Accel.) Holy Anger is also a waste of runes in the beginning (though this is a great skill for later) mostly due to how infrequent Demon/Undead encounters are then. I usually go after Learning 3 as soon as possible with my green runes instead (+xp should be get early or not at all really.) Since they give Intellect, I will get this eventually but the nature of learning is that you benefit from it more if you get it early. Neatness is invaluable to a mage (Level 1 will suffice for a while) due to the crystals you'll need to upgrade your spells. Plus Absolute Balance is the easiest way for a mage to gain rage.

For spells, Berserker is amazing at Level 3 on demon portaled units. You're gonna have them attack AND die anyways, why not add a crapload of damage in the meantime? :) On my 35 Int, Berserker 3 adds +144% (so the unit does two and a half times normal damage) for FIVE rounds and it only costs 8 mana.

As for your army, I do wonder what the paladin is doing as he seems to be the odd man out. Here's why:

1) You don't have Phantom and your Distortion is at Level 1.

2) The only units he can resurrect are your Archmage and Inquisitors.

3) Your dragon is pretty mobile and I imagine your main tank. That means your slow paladins probably don't see a lot of action.

Your effectiveness would go way up if you replace the paladins with a shooting stack (Evil/Normal Beholders if you can get them due to their sleep attack or Demonologists if you're that lucky.)

lauvhk
01-07-2010, 05:54 PM
The cave where Zigzag is guarding/patrolling is the place where you can find the free Emerald Green Dragon, but first you need to complete the Sohaty quest (asking for pirates, robbers and bowmen, 50 each) in order to obtain the key. He is found near the coast outside the cave.

Seeing that you have summoner 2 and order magic 2 I guess you mostly cast Call of Nature and Summon Phoenix?

@loreangelicus

Speaking of Undead, what about Ancient Vampire? They probably serve better than Black Knight in early game but lack the damage resistance to sustain later on. Same for Black Knight though in terms of availability. The chapel in Scarlet Wind is the earliest place that offers sale on one level 4 undead unit in random and the quantity is only in single digit.

Zechnophobe
01-07-2010, 06:13 PM
Basis,

Another option, uses your scroll of the wind to Summon Dryads. Dryads are immensely powerful for mages, as they fit the control style that they use. A lot of early battles will allow dryads to buy maybe an entire turn via lullabye.

loreangelicus
01-08-2010, 02:04 AM
@loreangelicus

Speaking of Undead, what about Ancient Vampire? They probably serve better than Black Knight in early game but lack the damage resistance to sustain later on. Same for Black Knight though in terms of availability. The chapel in Scarlet Wind is the earliest place that offers sale on one level 4 undead unit in random and the quantity is only in single digit.

Yes, I actually got 9 of them there at that location, and used them to kill most enemies at Scarlet. But on my impossible paladin game I couldn't use them to tank against melee-heavy "invincible" enemies (hero army of Hector Norbu), even with Eviln support. Thankfully, I lucked out with a Call Colossus and used it to get a Red Dragon.

But you are correct, without Eviln ancient vampires are indeed better than black knights early in the game because they can go bat-mode and "resurrect" themselves.

lauvhk
01-08-2010, 02:31 AM
@Basis

I will just add a little bit more. Let's assume you stick to your current army lineup. I would suggest something called "Tank Rotation".

1. Both Black Dragon and Cyclop cannot be healed and resurrected but they are obviously very powerful unit. High defense and good damage resistance in different aspect. Use them aggressively as tank when they are in good health and then turn them into hit and run mode when the hp runs on the low side, say below half.

2. Cast summon phoenix to offer additional support to Black Dragon (your first tank most likely).

3. The Paladin is the unit who should and can afford to take the beating. So charge all the way forward with your Paladin while the Black Dragon and Phoenix thin out the enemies power. Support your Paladin with your Cyclop (Charge forward as well and revert back to pure range unit when hp is low) as your second tank group.

4. Remember your Archmage magic shield and your other spells like stone skin and fear.

5. Maintain your Paladin in full health when the fight is under control.

joasoz
01-08-2010, 08:51 AM
If you have Summon Phoenix get it to level 3 asap. This will give you no loss battles lots of times. This spell is almost overpowered this early in the game. I found it on Bolo on my Hard Mage game, and suddenly everything was a lot easier :)

basis
01-08-2010, 05:43 PM
i knew sharing my screenshots would help! wow u guys are amazing - just by looking at the screenies you guys know my (poor) battle strategy.

yeh i use the dragon as the first line offense, while the mages & cyclops was 2nd line long-range. And I use my offensive spells like Fireball, Pole Axe to thin the larger mob numbers. If doing damage isn't good enough, I'll usually summon something in on the first round to give me added numbers on the battlefield, but usually my 2nd Tier summons isn't that great. So I guess either boost my Pheonix to level 3 or my summoning to level 3. Now I realize the cyclops should be front line. Thanks for enlightening me. I guess I could teleport the Cyclops out to the front to get into the thick of things.

As for paladins, because of their low numbers (and because I do not know where else to get them, I drained all at Debir) I don't send them out front line. So even while I can effectively hold more paladins, you guys think I should use them as 2nd offensive team? And yes sadly they were useful only for protecting the mages and casting the 1 resurrect spell which isn't enough to rezz a full team at times :(

Ok i will try to use Shield and stone skin combo on the paladin. Because I cannot cast them on my black dragon or cyclops.

As for the suggestion to change Paladin to Black / Dark Beholders, yes I actually do have a stack of beholders in my backup, but their low health make them vulnerable to enemy ranged units. But I do like their Sleep and Possession abilities. Would casting stone skin or shield help to keep them alive longer?

Are there other ways to survive a no-loss encounter? Buffing troops or using summoned creatures?

TemjinGold
01-08-2010, 06:01 PM
1) Why can't you cast Shield/Stone Skin on cyclops? Offhand I know for sure you can with Shield. Can't remember for Stone Skin but I don't see why not.

2) The issue with the paladins is that they are basically not contributing (dead weight.) If you have a tank in their face (either Black Dragon/Cyclops or a summon), the enemy will not go after your archers. You may say, "But they help when the enemy breaks through." However, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy as they are better able to break through BECAUSE you have fewer stacks that are actually killing. For my game, once I hit 1900 leadership and ditched the inquisitors, I've never had to use any form of resurrection. If you are afraid of losing units, Healing is a great spell to get to Level 3 because it's cheap and heals a load.

3) Phoenix is great early game but it is absolutely horrible mid to late game due to how expensive and weak it is. An Ancient Phoenix is weaker stat-wise than ONE dragon, yet it costs a crazy amount of mana to cast. I skipped this spell as I tend not to sink resources into stuff that gets obsolete if I can help it but I cannot deny that it is powerful in the beginning (if you don't mind wasting the crystals, go for it.) Summoning however is useful for the whole game.

4) As mentioned trap does a lot of damage but even if it were weaker damage-wise than fireball/poleaxe/etc., it is STILL superior for a mage because a mage's goal should be to drag the fight out and trap stops units. This is why shooters work so well for mages because you get to do damage without taking any in return. Trap can also increase the effectiveness of your fireballs and whatnot by basically making the enemy stand in a certain position.

In any case, if you have access to Tekron (map should be unguarded in Montero), you should go do the Abyss quest in the Grand Channel. That gives you the Living Book, a 20% boost to Demon Portal and a guaranteed scroll of the spell for 1 crystal. The quest itself only requires that you kite 2 stacks (normal kiting, not map kiting.) With it, you won't need to touch Phoenix again.

basis
01-08-2010, 06:30 PM
thx for the advice TemjinGold, I'll probably not invest too much into Phoenix now, but I just tried battling with ZigZagg and I could probably handle his normal units, but what got my units killed the most was his Geyser attack!

Is there any way to deny him casting that spell? Or at least mitigate the damage dealt? I noticed he would change my red mages to sheeps in the first round then follow it with Geyser in the 2nd round.

TemjinGold
01-08-2010, 06:34 PM
The easiest way to beat ZagZag is to enter the fight with only your black dragon (or a troll at night.) You'll need enough summon power to beat him with that alone tho. Stone skin helps immensely as well since Geyser does Physical damage.

basis
01-08-2010, 08:14 PM
hmm i'll try that single unit strategy later.

i'm contemplating exchanging either my archmages or inquistors for something else. i mean the resurrect skill is only useful for my inquistors who are weakest link in my no-loss battles. next weakest would be the archmages most of the my other units can hold their own. wonder what would be a good substitute... knights? or another range unit like cannoneers?

jake21
01-08-2010, 08:56 PM
You've mentioned the map for tekron is in montero - where - is it in that maze in the undergorund area or else where ?

TemjinGold
01-08-2010, 09:01 PM
Maps aren't always in the same spot. My current game, I found it near the entrance to the underground that's inside the first underground. (Okay that's confusing. Basically, you go down the elevator and that's the underground. But in THAT underground, there is a door that's down a flight of steps that leads to ANOTHER underground. I found mine below those steps.) My brother found it on the bridge right when he got to Montero.

jake21
01-08-2010, 09:57 PM
Yea that's what I called the maze that is underground - you go underground and then there is a red door to a maze...

Maps aren't always in the same spot. My current game, I found it near the entrance to the underground that's inside the first underground. (Okay that's confusing. Basically, you go down the elevator and that's the underground. But in THAT underground, there is a door that's down a flight of steps that leads to ANOTHER underground. I found mine below those steps.) My brother found it on the bridge right when he got to Montero.

jake21
01-09-2010, 04:05 PM
Well after all my whines I'm up to about level 40. Still a long ways to go but instead of having 30k i now have 1,000,000K coins so things look a little less fragile.

basis
01-09-2010, 04:14 PM
and just wanted to add that TemjinGold's suggestion to solo ZigZag with the black dragons worked! yeh i didn't even have to summon that much either.

and i even found that free Green Dragon. but then i realized the Blacks seem to be a better choice due to higher HP and carpet bombing ability :)

anyways i managed to find the resurrection scroll but realize it isn't all that useful. :(

so what would you folks suggest as a good replacement for inquisitors? cannoneers?

TemjinGold
01-09-2010, 04:51 PM
Well after all my whines I'm up to about level 40. Still a long ways to go but instead of having 30k i now have 1,000,000K coins so things look a little less fragile.

Glad things are working out for you!

TemjinGold
01-09-2010, 04:56 PM
and just wanted to add that TemjinGold's suggestion to solo ZigZag with the black dragons worked! yeh i didn't even have to summon that much either.

and i even found that free Green Dragon. but then i realized the Blacks seem to be a better choice due to higher HP and carpet bombing ability :)

anyways i managed to find the resurrection scroll but realize it isn't all that useful. :(

so what would you folks suggest as a good replacement for inquisitors? cannoneers?

Depends how much leadership you have and how strong your spells are. If you have decent spells/spell levels, the middle part of the game is MUCH easier as a mage if you stick to 1 stack. Reds are best if you can find them (can be buffed and, more importantly, invisibled if needed) with trolls as a close second (if using trolls, don't use more than 1 for maximum benefit.) Blacks are great to whip out for boss fights where geyser is involved. Using one stack also has the side effect of leveling your dragon much faster. As a side note, my Level 36 mage is finding that I'm reaching the limits of using one stack of L5s pretty soon (getting a lot harder.) I actually had to whip out the phantom and target spells to get my army of 6 Reds to take out 1500 elves w/o losses. Unless I find Turn Back Time soon, I'll probably need to re-evaluate those boring paladins...:rolleyes:

loreangelicus
01-09-2010, 06:54 PM
Depends how much leadership you have and how strong your spells are. If you have decent spells/spell levels, the middle part of the game is MUCH easier as a mage if you stick to 1 stack. Reds are best if you can find them (can be buffed and, more importantly, invisibled if needed) with trolls as a close second (if using trolls, don't use more than 1 for maximum benefit.) Blacks are great to whip out for boss fights where geyser is involved. Using one stack also has the side effect of leveling your dragon much faster. As a side note, my Level 36 mage is finding that I'm reaching the limits of using one stack of L5s pretty soon (getting a lot harder.) I actually had to whip out the phantom and target spells to get my army of 6 Reds to take out 1500 elves w/o losses. Unless I find Turn Back Time soon, I'll probably need to re-evaluate those boring paladins...:rolleyes:

I don't know if a mage has enough leadership to do this as I've never played mage, but solo black knights with Eviln spell support might be something you would want to consider if you really like the solo unit concept.

TemjinGold
01-09-2010, 07:02 PM
I might try that. Do you happen to know if Gorguanas count for the Princess Set (female bonus)? I know they are supposed to be female. If they do, I might try that too.

lauvhk
01-10-2010, 05:21 PM
I don't have the Princess Set but the Cat Collar, being part of the set and featuring +1 initiative to all female troops, does NOT affect Gorguanas. You may want to test it again when you have full set.

TemjinGold
01-10-2010, 06:28 PM
Ahh okay. I do have the set, I just haven't found any gorguanas! A word of advice for you mages out there: Don't fight Elenhel underground... :)