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View Full Version : Map Kiting in KB:AP or KB 2


blueshrike
12-01-2009, 01:35 PM
Armored Princess is pure awesome... and I'm excited to write a review soon. Not sure what final score it will receive but I gave KB a 9.3 overall - very high for the site (Gamebanshee) and overall for the game from what I've read.

So here's a simple suggestion for an upcoming patch for KB:AP or perhaps a thought for KB 2. Obviously nav maps are cool. Kiting the guards away is also, guiltily cool. It wasn't at first and I tried to avoid it, but as the difficulty quickly increased, it became increasingly more tantalizing to kite. The promises of a new land with its leadership gains and treasures before ever fighting is one of the thrills of the game actually. Mainly because exploration contributes so successfully to character progression in this game, a truly great feat in an RPG.

However, the designers have set it so that the tougher map guardians are there to prevent the player from progressing too much without sufficient advancement. This would work except that players are able to use an exploit of sorts to lure them away and steal the map (thankfully...). It's obviously not the intended design as you really need to get lucky to do this... but it's not too bad with repeated attempts. And if this was the intended behavior, why didn't they just make them stationary with an "aura" of automatic battle rather than have them chase the player?

Either it's a programmatic problem they didn't want to / have time to solve, a bug, or a rather strange implementation.

Nevertheless I'm thankful it exists, because it's made my playing more enjoyable instead of potentially frustrating.

Here's where the design problem comes in, and perhaps a suggestion that would be good for all. Players who want no-losses, especially with the Mage challenge and impossible levels make map kiting even more of a requirement for success.

Therefore, especially for those high-scorers out there, what are your thoughts on implementing a small score penalty for the number of reloads (the 1st load doesn't count - only loads where time played is less than your current time), and a slightly more significant one for re-battle attempts?

By doing so those no-loss victories will still be possible, however the scoring edge will go to those whose reloading is slightly less (only a small penalty applies here to account for luck), and whose number of re-battles were less.

Thoughts?

Elwin
12-01-2009, 01:58 PM
Stealing doesnt give any decent score anyway because you lose days for that kiting .. I love that feature. I can get whenever unit i want at begining of the game .. and leadership is thing which limits the amount s i cna have so thats not that much overpowered. the problem of many rpgs is that u get cool items/units whatever on the end of the game and you cant really enjoy for so short ... If this wouldnt be possible it could be also fact that u get lizards only for last few fights .. not fun at all

blueshrike
12-01-2009, 02:03 PM
Stealing doesnt give any decent score anyway because you lose days for that kiting .. I love that feature. I can get whenever unit i want at begining of the game .. and leadership is thing which limits the amount s i cna have so thats not that much overpowered. the problem of many rpgs is that u get cool items/units whatever on the end of the game and you cant really enjoy for so short ... If this wouldnt be possible it could be also fact that u get lizards only for last few fights .. not fun at all
Agreed, and I think changing the scoring slightly to account for kiting / reloads / rebattles might help balance existing player issues with it.

DGDobrev
12-01-2009, 02:12 PM
Well... I would share my thoughts as a person who knows the game mechanics well, tried it on all difficulties, and even got a no-loss win on impossible with a mage.

Reloads penalty will hurt everyone seriously. There are people who struggle even on lower difficulties and replay some battles 10 times. Imagine what kind of score they will get in the end.

As for kiting guards, that has been discussed. Approach from 90 degrees, if the enemy moves, pause and quicksave. It is both a tool and last resort option. Let us not forget that this is an option to make a diverse game - otherwise every replay will be the same, with the same units, the same way. If you feel like this is improper, simply don't do it :)

That post also makes me fall back to a statement I made some time ago: people really enjoy finding bugs and game discrepancies rather than analyzing the game, seeing what and when can be done, adapt their game strategy. Why taking away obvious paths of advancement? Why make the game completely based on human units, when you can start with demons, elves, dwarves, lizards, orcs or undead? That would seriously hurt the replayability, don't you think?

If there is an ironman mode, I will enjoy it, personally. However, the game is fun and fine as it is - it is much more challenging than KBTL, and requires much more strategic thinking.

Zhuangzi
12-01-2009, 03:07 PM
If there is an ironman mode, I will enjoy it, personally. However, the game is fun and fine as it is - it is much more challenging than KBTL, and requires much more strategic thinking.

I am thinking of an Ironman game for my next game. I'm thinking that it might be too hard on Impossible - due to the money issue. And I don't want to play as a Warrior again. Maybe a Hard Paladin game with absolutely NO reloads? That is, if I lose a battle, tough. No kiting in that game. :eek:

travelingoz
12-01-2009, 05:10 PM
Hmmm.. Ironman mode sounds like a blast! I'm always up for a challenge! How would you monitor it though? Is there a mod that someone could make so it would be recorded on your final stats screen? How would you know if it was a reload or a save and exit to play again later?

lauvhk
12-01-2009, 05:20 PM
Another reason for Map Kiting is that players would like to build their army from a specific race which is not available from the start (and according to the information available certain race is probably not even possible until very late in the game). Well well, same old story for the original KB and KB:TL.

Obviously, it is complicated with stuffs being able to pick up and quests being done in between so that Map Kiting player will be much more powerful, even if they are only allowed to use low level troops from other races. But seeing oneself restricted to the same old troops (mostly human and neutral) in the beginning is frustrating, as if the new races/troops are only created to be your enemy.

Elwin
12-01-2009, 05:26 PM
Exactly.

DGDobrev
12-01-2009, 05:26 PM
A kiting player will be powerful until lvl 30 or so. In the end, even with all the kiting, the game balances itself, and it's all about proper battle tactics.

So generally, if you can't do a decent fight in the beginning, don't expect thangs to change even if you become the best kiter. It is as simple as that. In my eyes, kiting is a tool to get a nice army at startup. Besides, if you're going for a good score, kiting only hurts it.

blueshrike
12-01-2009, 05:27 PM
Well... I would share my thoughts as a person who knows the game mechanics well, tried it on all difficulties, and even got a no-loss win on impossible with a mage.
You are very respected here and your contributions have been great for everyone including me!

Reloads penalty will hurt everyone seriously. There are people who struggle even on lower difficulties and replay some battles 10 times. Imagine what kind of score they will get in the end.
With due respect, I don't think anyone but the hardcore players (mostly us) who care about comparing scores would be affected - and then only in a positive, skill-based manner - by the proposed score calculation changes. These tweaks might simply provide a more accurate basis for a score regardless of player level, casual or hardcore. Scores could still be compared.

As for kiting guards, that has been discussed. Approach from 90 degrees, if the enemy moves, pause and quicksave. It is both a tool and last resort option. Let us not forget that this is an option to make a diverse game - otherwise every replay will be the same, with the same units, the same way. If you feel like this is improper, simply don't do it :)
Completely agree, however I think you maybe missed my point here. I wasn't suggesting they take out this functionality at all. As I wrote, there is a design flaw or bug, whether intentional or not and I am certainly not for eliminating the ability to be able to explore new areas before one is ready. In fact, the challenge is already quite sufficient for me and we agree that the game variety is much improved when you have the ability to recruit more creatures and find more spells.

That post also makes me fall back to a statement I made some time ago: people really enjoy finding bugs and game discrepancies rather than analyzing the game, seeing what and when can be done, adapt their game strategy. Why taking away obvious paths of advancement? Why make the game completely based on human units, when you can start with demons, elves, dwarves, lizards, orcs or undead? That would seriously hurt the replayability, don't you think?
Again, I'm not suggesting they change the ability to get to new islands before you're ready - so I think you missed my point. Yes, I agree it would hurt replayability. However I didn't make the guards the way they are, and believe that something (a minor tweak) should be done to address this - and that continuously reloading is *not* the best option. It works but if something that many find necessary requires hours of reloading just to kite map guards... there is a better way.

If there is an ironman mode, I will enjoy it, personally. However, the game is fun and fine as it is - it is much more challenging than KBTL, and requires much more strategic thinking.
An ironman mode and the tweaks that were suggested do not have to be mutually exclusive and this would be very welcome. The proposed tweaks *will* make your score lower, but all scores would be more relative to player skill than they are now, but with still a little bit of luck, as always. That's all that's being proposed at this point.

Final note: as a designer myself, the guards are there for a reason, obviously. It's to prevent access by the majority of players to areas where quests and creatures are not yet for their level. My opinion is that these areas, despite difficulty, are actually required in this game for fun and exploration, and therefore I would decrease their core difficulty to allow access to more maps without the need for kiting, in addition to making it actually easier to kite these guards :) Problem solved IMO. It's not as if there isn't any danger in kiting already.

DGDobrev
12-01-2009, 06:01 PM
I respect your opinion and I must admit that you drive some very strong points here and you have most certainly put a lot of thought into that.

I agree about the score balancing. However, being a hardcore player, I cannot dismiss the people who like to play the game casually or make any disparaging remarks concerning them because of that. However, look at the score sheet in the game. If there were no heroes in it, that would be fine. But what if a player who tries really hard to beat the game in normal simply doesn't get in the chart because of the reload penalty? How will that person feel in the end of a game that challenged him a lot - just to find he did it for nothing and can't even show what he/she did?

I would personally feel fine if there is the option to select my army alignment in the first few areas. That will let me try out various army setups and tactics without me having to complete like 33%, 66% or 99% of the game for the same result. That would be a serious loss of real time. Even now, with the present state of affairs, it takes a couple of hours to do the kiting properly.

Well, I am positive that there will always be such arguments because people feel different. I also felt different for a while while I was playing the russian version, but I simply adapted :) Since nothing has changed in 6 months, keeping in mind we got a few patches for that time, I would not presume that a major change will happen at all.

Let us not forget that the game is pretty much open source and there will be mods to make it harder or easier, then everyone can play it the way he/she feels that it fulfills his/her needs as much as possible.

blueshrike
12-01-2009, 06:17 PM
I agree about the score balancing.... But what if a player who tries really hard to beat the game in normal simply doesn't get in the chart because of the reload penalty? How will that person feel in the end of a game that challenged him a lot - just to find he did it for nothing and can't even show what he/she did?
In the score formula rebalancing, the heroes' scores would simply be made lower to account for most everyone's overall lower score. Don't think this would be difficult to do at all. HOMM did it easily with having heroes down at the bottom as well as the top so you always earned a place.

I would personally feel fine if there is the option to select my army alignment in the first few areas.
Yes, perhaps being able to pick your starting area with unique creatures would be pretty cool - maybe in KB 2! Would still like the ability to branch out fairly early, just as we are doing with the kiting now because that is the spice of this game, we all agree.

Mods are great, but I'm not sure if it is even possible without changing the code to keep track of re-loads or re-battles and adjust heroes' scores as well as change the overall formula... perhaps I will ask in the Mod forum! :)

DGDobrev
12-01-2009, 06:27 PM
Well, there should be a switch somewhere in the game files that says if the map guards are moveable. In the early russian versions, the map guards acted pretty much like any other map creature and you could easily move them around at will. So you can be certain that that was fixed once before :)

Zechnophobe
12-01-2009, 07:41 PM
So here's my thoughts. I realized that AP has a big flaw, the same that TL has: You almost always end up using the same units. Partially this is because only certain units are good, and partially because you always progress through the game in the same ethnic order.

We have two game balances that are currently at odds:

1) The fact that islands have different difficulty levels that effects the value of the 'pickups' and oftenly the troops.

2) The fact that you can 'kite' maps to get to the higher difficulty areas.

This means that getting to new islands is very beneficial to the player, due to the freebies of the area, as well as something that you can do via a specific, sorta cheesy strategy.

What I would *really* like to see a mod that shakes up this system in one of the following ways:

1) Removes the requirement for navigational charts entirely. This will be 'easy mode' because you can get free pickups from each island without having to kite. However, since this is already doable it isn't that easy.

2) RANDOMIZES the difficulty of each island, as well as the order of maps. What I'm suggesting is that instead of always going to scarlet wind, then Bola, then Rusty Anchor, then Verona... You would start on Debir, and the maps you would find there could go to any island, and that the order and difficulty would ramp up as normal. That is, if you go straight from Debir to Nameless island, then nameless island would be the same difficulty as scarlet wind.

Ideally this second option would also tone done the loot you would find there. An island covered in black dragon eggs is probably a bit broken. Quests would also have to have their xp tempered by island difficulty. So this is likely just a dream scenario. But wouldn't it be cool if you didn't always play through the game in the same order?

Elwin
12-01-2009, 08:06 PM
to be honest its order only on beggining once you clear most of stacks on verona you cna choose whatever you want .. maybe not reha yet .. but montero dersu tekron umkas uzala elon .. there is much choice ..

Urbz
12-01-2009, 09:01 PM
Very nice points Blueshrike, I fully agree and I could not have said it better.
At first I really liked the kiting but now I really dont anymore. Although I should've just started on normal to play through the game at least once.
For me personally the kiting does not make the game any better but hopefully I will change my mind at some point just like DG did because I doubt they will patch this if it hasnt ben changed in 6 months.
And indeed DG, it will be intresting to see what mods will be made for this game to keep it fun even longer. :grin:

DGDobrev
12-01-2009, 09:07 PM
Well, All that I can say is - start a mage on impossible and try your hand at the game. Well see if you can get out of the starting few islands without map guards kiting. With a warrior, you can do it - I did it. With a paladin, you can do it as well. With a mage, you have twice as less leadership than the warrior, no double casts nor lots of rage whatsoever to use the dragon to push enemies back 2 steps all the time.

I can go so far as to say that a mage can't even get to rusty anchor without map kiting on impossible, unless you luck out with several + leadership items - and still it is doubtful whether you will be able to afford them at all.

Zhuangzi
12-01-2009, 11:25 PM
Hmmm.. Ironman mode sounds like a blast! I'm always up for a challenge! How would you monitor it though? Is there a mod that someone could make so it would be recorded on your final stats screen? How would you know if it was a reload or a save and exit to play again later?

Yes, I suppose we would just have to take the player's word that they hadn't reloaded. A mod would be good though. I think it would be too hard on Impossible as you would run out of money, but maybe Hard would be doable.

travelingoz
12-02-2009, 06:02 AM
Thinking more on Ironman; I think a Warrior would be too easy while a Paladin may be difficult on either hard or impossible at the start, once you get Res 3 however, it would become quite easy. Maybe a Mage on hard would be a sufficient challenge. I'd like to see if it could be done on impossible though! :grin:

Perhaps a mod could be done so that you can't exit a battle once it's started and the game itself will only save on exit from the adventure map?

TemjinGold
12-03-2009, 04:40 AM
Well, All that I can say is - start a mage on impossible and try your hand at the game. Well see if you can get out of the starting few islands without map guards kiting. With a warrior, you can do it - I did it. With a paladin, you can do it as well. With a mage, you have twice as less leadership than the warrior, no double casts nor lots of rage whatsoever to use the dragon to push enemies back 2 steps all the time.

I can go so far as to say that a mage can't even get to rusty anchor without map kiting on impossible, unless you luck out with several + leadership items - and still it is doubtful whether you will be able to afford them at all.

Hey DG, you may have to eat your words there. My impossible mage has wiped Debir, Scarlett, and Bolo clean, has a couple of fights left on Rusty, and hasn't touched Verona much yet. No kiting, no losses, and not a single +leadership item so far (didn't pick up Glory either.) With good battle tactics and strategy, a mage doesn't really need all that much leadership to be effective. If you need proof of some sort, just tell me what to take a screenie of!

Edit: Just checked my gal again. I do have a Commander's Helmet for leadership. My bad.

unicornxp
12-03-2009, 05:56 AM
without map kiting , warrior and paladin also can't get the map of Rusy-anchor without losses when he first reach Scarlett island , and if the guards have some ranged units like beholder, 0 loss is really impossible.

but it's easy to get the map in bolo, because there we can get cyclops(the best tank in the early game) and the guards are always all melee units or with less ranged ones.

DGDobrev
12-03-2009, 10:11 AM
Hey DG, you may have to eat your words there. My impossible mage has wiped Debir, Scarlett, and Bolo clean, has a couple of fights left on Rusty, and hasn't touched Verona much yet. No kiting, no losses, and not a single +leadership item so far (didn't pick up Glory either.) With good battle tactics and strategy, a mage doesn't really need all that much leadership to be effective. If you need proof of some sort, just tell me what to take a screenie of!

Edit: Just checked my gal again. I do have a Commander's Helmet for leadership. My bad.

Well, that would make some difference. You should also be aware that each game is different. If you get a game where the map guardians are mostly ranged (or even worse, ranged with magic damage to make your cyclopses vulnerable), I'd like to see you doing it without losses. I had a few such games - in those even stone skin + target (provided you have those) doesn't help. If you have neither target, nor stone skin... Close combat enemies may overrun you.

Still, it is all about the game setup, so we can't make a generalization :) So... I'm not eating up my words just yet :P

TemjinGold
12-03-2009, 02:10 PM
But but... you distinctly said it wasn't possible without SEVERAL +leadership items and kiting... :)

I should also mention the reason I forgot about the helm is because I'm not even bothering to fill up my leadership with units. I did the last 10 fights or so with 1 troll, which is less than 1/3 the leadership I have for 1 stack. In fact, the only fight I couldn't pass so far is the dragon with the several thousand flies in that cave.

melwin
12-03-2009, 02:58 PM
I'm sorry to answer for DGDobrev, but in this case exactly the Troll is what saved your skin. Imagine you didn't have this unit. I doubt you could manage it even with the +400 leadership given we are still talking about impossible and no losses.

DGDobrev
12-03-2009, 04:48 PM
I'm sorry to answer for DGDobrev, but in this case exactly the Troll is what saved your skin. Imagine you didn't have this unit. I doubt you could manage it even with the +400 leadership given we are still talking about impossible and no losses.

My thoughts exactly, but in any case, he did really well and found a way to do it properly. So all I can say is great work Temjin, and keep it up :)

Besides, a Troll may be found on both Bola and Scarlet wind, as well as on a Wanderers' Scroll. Trolls are really great anyway - 15% Physical and Fire resistance + Regen at night and 30% physical and fire resistance at day and no regen. You simply need to have some luck and get one :)

TemjinGold
12-04-2009, 01:23 AM
Well, the original "challenge" was getting to Rusty with the mage on Impossible. I bought the troll in Verona so before I got the troll, I did have no losses, no map kiting, AND no +leadership items (that helmut was bought in Verona too.) I mainly used the troll for fights like Richard the Cruel, R-14, and a lot of the heroes sailing around Scarlett in boats.

It's not that hard as long as you:

1) Get the Grand Strategy and Trapper medals up to level 3 quickly (I did luck out in being able to buy Trap spell early.) I had trapper Level 3 after fight 28.

2) Focus on ranged units with only 1 tank stack. The key to no losses is to not put your units in harm's way to begin with. If you're actually fighting with melee units, you're going to incur losses unless the melee unit clearly outranks what you are fighting, which is almost never the case in Impossible.

After that, it all comes down to positioning on the field. That's what so great about this game in that it really is about strategy while most so-called "strategy" games make actual strategy optional. If it matters, I didn't reload fights either.