Map Kiting in KB:AP or KB 2

[blueshrike]

Armored Princess is pure awesome... and I'm excited to write a review soon. Not sure what final score it will receive but I gave KB a 9.3 overall - very high for the site (Gamebanshee) and overall for the game from what I've read.

So here's a simple suggestion for an upcoming patch for KB:AP or perhaps a thought for KB 2. Obviously nav maps are cool. Kiting the guards away is also, guiltily cool. It wasn't at first and I tried to avoid it, but as the difficulty quickly increased, it became increasingly more tantalizing to kite. The promises of a new land with its leadership gains and treasures before ever fighting is one of the thrills of the game actually. Mainly because exploration contributes so successfully to character progression in this game, a truly great feat in an RPG.

However, the designers have set it so that the tougher map guardians are there to prevent the player from progressing too much without sufficient advancement. This would work except that players are able to use an exploit of sorts to lure them away and steal the map (thankfully...). It's obviously not the intended design as you really need to get lucky to do this... but it's not too bad with repeated attempts. And if this was the intended behavior, why didn't they just make them stationary with an "aura" of automatic battle rather than have them chase the player?

Either it's a programmatic problem they didn't want to / have time to solve, a bug, or a rather strange implementation.

Nevertheless I'm thankful it exists, because it's made my playing more enjoyable instead of potentially frustrating.

Here's where the design problem comes in, and perhaps a suggestion that would be good for all. Players who want no-losses, especially with the Mage challenge and impossible levels make map kiting even more of a requirement for success.

Therefore, especially for those high-scorers out there, what are your thoughts on implementing a small score penalty for the number of reloads (the 1st load doesn't count - only loads where time played is less than your current time), and a slightly more significant one for re-battle attempts?

By doing so those no-loss victories will still be possible, however the scoring edge will go to those whose reloading is slightly less (only a small penalty applies here to account for luck), and whose number of re-battles were less.

Thoughts?

[Elwin]

Stealing doesnt give any decent score anyway because you lose days for that kiting .. I love that feature. I can get whenever unit i want at begining of the game .. and leadership is thing which limits the amount s i cna have so thats not that much overpowered. the problem of many rpgs is that u get cool items/units whatever on the end of the game and you cant really enjoy for so short ... If this wouldnt be possible it could be also fact that u get lizards only for last few fights .. not fun at all

[blueshrike]

Originally Posted by Elwin

Stealing doesnt give any decent score anyway because you lose days for that kiting .. I love that feature. I can get whenever unit i want at begining of the game .. and leadership is thing which limits the amount s i cna have so thats not that much overpowered. the problem of many rpgs is that u get cool items/units whatever on the end of the game and you cant really enjoy for so short ... If this wouldnt be possible it could be also fact that u get lizards only for last few fights .. not fun at all

Agreed, and I think changing the scoring slightly to account for kiting / reloads / rebattles might help balance existing player issues with it.

[DGDobrev]

Well... I would share my thoughts as a person who knows the game mechanics well, tried it on all difficulties, and even got a no-loss win on impossible with a mage.

Reloads penalty will hurt everyone seriously. There are people who struggle even on lower difficulties and replay some battles 10 times. Imagine what kind of score they will get in the end.

As for kiting guards, that has been discussed. Approach from 90 degrees, if the enemy moves, pause and quicksave. It is both a tool and last resort option. Let us not forget that this is an option to make a diverse game - otherwise every replay will be the same, with the same units, the same way. If you feel like this is improper, simply don't do it

That post also makes me fall back to a statement I made some time ago: people really enjoy finding bugs and game discrepancies rather than analyzing the game, seeing what and when can be done, adapt their game strategy. Why taking away obvious paths of advancement? Why make the game completely based on human units, when you can start with demons, elves, dwarves, lizards, orcs or undead? That would seriously hurt the replayability, don't you think?

If there is an ironman mode, I will enjoy it, personally. However, the game is fun and fine as it is - it is much more challenging than KBTL, and requires much more strategic thinking.

[Zhuangzi]

Originally Posted by DGDobrev

If there is an ironman mode, I will enjoy it, personally. However, the game is fun and fine as it is - it is much more challenging than KBTL, and requires much more strategic thinking.

I am thinking of an Ironman game for my next game. I'm thinking that it might be too hard on Impossible - due to the money issue. And I don't want to play as a Warrior again. Maybe a Hard Paladin game with absolutely NO reloads? That is, if I lose a battle, tough. No kiting in that game.

[travelingoz]

Hmmm.. Ironman mode sounds like a blast! I'm always up for a challenge! How would you monitor it though? Is there a mod that someone could make so it would be recorded on your final stats screen? How would you know if it was a reload or a save and exit to play again later?

[lauvhk]

Another reason for Map Kiting is that players would like to build their army from a specific race which is not available from the start (and according to the information available certain race is probably not even possible until very late in the game). Well well, same old story for the original KB and KB:TL.

Obviously, it is complicated with stuffs being able to pick up and quests being done in between so that Map Kiting player will be much more powerful, even if they are only allowed to use low level troops from other races. But seeing oneself restricted to the same old troops (mostly human and neutral) in the beginning is frustrating, as if the new races/troops are only created to be your enemy.

[Elwin]

Exactly.

[DGDobrev]

A kiting player will be powerful until lvl 30 or so. In the end, even with all the kiting, the game balances itself, and it's all about proper battle tactics.

So generally, if you can't do a decent fight in the beginning, don't expect thangs to change even if you become the best kiter. It is as simple as that. In my eyes, kiting is a tool to get a nice army at startup. Besides, if you're going for a good score, kiting only hurts it.

[blueshrike]

Originally Posted by DGDobrev

Well... I would share my thoughts as a person who knows the game mechanics well, tried it on all difficulties, and even got a no-loss win on impossible with a mage.

You are very respected here and your contributions have been great for everyone including me!

Reloads penalty will hurt everyone seriously. There are people who struggle even on lower difficulties and replay some battles 10 times. Imagine what kind of score they will get in the end.

With due respect, I don't think anyone but the hardcore players (mostly us) who care about comparing scores would be affected - and then only in a positive, skill-based manner - by the proposed score calculation changes. These tweaks might simply provide a more accurate basis for a score regardless of player level, casual or hardcore. Scores could still be compared.

As for kiting guards, that has been discussed. Approach from 90 degrees, if the enemy moves, pause and quicksave. It is both a tool and last resort option. Let us not forget that this is an option to make a diverse game - otherwise every replay will be the same, with the same units, the same way. If you feel like this is improper, simply don't do it

Completely agree, however I think you maybe missed my point here. I wasn't suggesting they take out this functionality at all. As I wrote, there is a design flaw or bug, whether intentional or not and I am certainly not for eliminating the ability to be able to explore new areas before one is ready. In fact, the challenge is already quite sufficient for me and we agree that the game variety is much improved when you have the ability to recruit more creatures and find more spells.

That post also makes me fall back to a statement I made some time ago: people really enjoy finding bugs and game discrepancies rather than analyzing the game, seeing what and when can be done, adapt their game strategy. Why taking away obvious paths of advancement? Why make the game completely based on human units, when you can start with demons, elves, dwarves, lizards, orcs or undead? That would seriously hurt the replayability, don't you think?

Again, I'm not suggesting they change the ability to get to new islands before you're ready - so I think you missed my point. Yes, I agree it would hurt replayability. However I didn't make the guards the way they are, and believe that something (a minor tweak) should be done to address this - and that continuously reloading is *not* the best option. It works but if something that many find necessary requires hours of reloading just to kite map guards... there is a better way.

If there is an ironman mode, I will enjoy it, personally. However, the game is fun and fine as it is - it is much more challenging than KBTL, and requires much more strategic thinking.

An ironman mode and the tweaks that were suggested do not have to be mutually exclusive and this would be very welcome. The proposed tweaks *will* make your score lower, but all scores would be more relative to player skill than they are now, but with still a little bit of luck, as always. That's all that's being proposed at this point.

Final note: as a designer myself, the guards are there for a reason, obviously. It's to prevent access by the majority of players to areas where quests and creatures are not yet for their level. My opinion is that these areas, despite difficulty, are actually required in this game for fun and exploration, and therefore I would decrease their core difficulty to allow access to more maps without the need for kiting, in addition to making it actually easier to kite these guards Problem solved IMO. It's not as if there isn't any danger in kiting already.