Undead Warrior no losses?

[Infiltrator]

I am not done yet with my mage but I'm thinking about starting an UD warrior and trying to go with no losses on hard. Any of you guys tried it/think it's plausible? I was thinking about the composition of the best 5 undead units with a black dragon stack.

Thoughts?

[Elwin]

I have many good undead items whole vampire set and many others and i cuold benefit much from it but how to keep undead with no losses? vampire can heal .. but rest >> single fire arrow and no loss is screwed .. and whole army of units which cant be ressed not realy sounds like a no loss army.

[Infiltrator]

I haven't really bothered much with UD in the previous game, and seeing how there were some new spells and rebalances in KBAP I thought that there may have been a spell/unit that ressurects undead?

[DGDobrev]

The demonologists can do that, but do not except much from it. Sacrifice will also work, provided you have a high-health unit to sacrifice without killing it.

[Infiltrator]

So I guess bone dragons with lvl 1 sacrifice? In KBTL I used to go around with a bunch of demoness and charm+sacrifice enemies to oblivion, but that was pretty abusive so they might have fixed it.

[DGDobrev]

Hmm, I wouldn't use bone dragons, since you can't heal them. That I would use is Tirexes. They can eat a dead body and regain their full HP, and when they kill an enemy, they eat it up (unless it is a plant, machanical, undead, etc.) and restore their HP. However, mixing a high-HP unit in an undead army will result in certain morale penalties for the Tirex (-1, Low).

However, I think you may try that with red dragons. The Red Dragon has 870 HP, and can survive a lvl 1 sacrifice. Then you can heal them up. As for the charm-sacrifice, I think it still works. Hypnosis-sacrifice should also work.

[Infiltrator]

Hmm, I wouldn't use bone dragons, since you can't heal them. That I would use is Tirexes. They can eat a dead body and regain their full HP, and when they kill an enemy, they eat it up (unless it is a plant, machanical, undead, etc.) and restore their HP. However, mixing a high-HP unit in an undead army will result in certain morale penalties for the Tirex (-1, Low).

However, I think you may try that with red dragons. The Red Dragon has 870 HP, and can survive a lvl 1 sacrifice. Then you can heal them up. As for the charm-sacrifice, I think it still works. Hypnosis-sacrifice should also work.

Wow, seems like the game is really rigged against undead. Yea I also used hypnotize + sacrifice but since I was considering to go with a warrior I take it I won't have so much mana for that kind of stunt.

I guess you could also sacrifice ancient vampires? It does seem risky though..

[DGDobrev]

Sure you can :) You can also sacrifice the Cursed Ghosts, as both of them recover their lost troops when attacking. However, you never know when a unit will get above its max leadership and if it goes out of control, it can do more damage to you than the enemy :) So you're right that it's risky. Still, it is easily settled by a quick "heal" to remove that extra unit or two.

[Infiltrator]

Yeah.. I am a bit undecided. I'll go through the unit and spell stats.. can't believe they haven't incorporated a hero spell that revives undead..

edit: there DOES appear to be an undead-healing spell in the destruction school, at least from what I can understand. I can't understand much of it, the icon is purple/black and it does damage to living stacks and heals undead.

[Kathos]

Sure you can :) You can also sacrifice the Cursed Ghosts, as both of them recover their lost troops when attacking. However, you never know when a unit will get above its max leadership and if it goes out of control, it can do more damage to you than the enemy :) So you're right that it's risky. Still, it is easily settled by a quick "heal" to remove that extra unit or two.

I've often thought about trying an undead hero in KBTL but I just never got around to it, and I was really hoping to try it in AP perhaps. Maybe not right away with no losses but we'll see as I only like to play games on the hardest difficulty =)
However regarding your post, are you saying that life draining units (cursed ghosts, ancient vampires) can create new units above your leadership? I always thought they would just heal back up to however many you came into the battle with, like in the HOMM games (minus the rigged ghosts in HOMM2, peasant feast!)

[Urbz]

I've often thought about trying an undead hero in KBTL but I just never got around to it, and I was really hoping to try it in AP perhaps. Maybe not right away with no losses but we'll see as I only like to play games on the hardest difficulty =)
However regarding your post, are you saying that life draining units (cursed ghosts, ancient vampires) can create new units above your leadership? I always thought they would just heal back up to however many you came into the battle with, like in the HOMM games (minus the rigged ghosts in HOMM2, peasant feast!)

I tried this on KBTL although I think i played a mage ( on either hard or impossible, not sure ) and although it wasnt "no-losses"I actually almost finished the game, was at the big orc just before the final battle, I should really try to finish it sometime although i might've uninstalled the game apparently. :confused:
But yeah playing with undead is awesome !, indeed mainly the ( cursed ) ghosts and vampires is sweet but dont forget units like the black knights, necromancers and skeleton archers ( esp with dragon arrow ) they're also are pretty awesome and really under-rated, and even zombies could be amore usefull now with the "Pass" skill.
Also if there's cemetaries around be sure to kite enemies into it, for sweet bonusses.
There were not many places to get the units though, and even less so in this game ( at least at the start ) although diplomacy and some luck with with undead spawns will help alot. So you might have to "cheat" and use the living till you can get a decent army, i doubt no losses is doable but meh who cares really, fun counts and using undead is quite fun imo!:grin:

[Kathos]

Don't get me started on those skel archers, that black arrow is strong! They were always my first choice in any fight to kill or at least dwindle down before worrying about the less threatening vampires/ghosts.
But yea thats one of the main reasons I could never find the motivationg to go through with an undead hero. The bigger skills were so deep in the talent tree, and it took a while to get into the cemetery to really get some of the units. At best all there really was to recruit was some zombies skeletons and ghosts. I found Vampires and Necromancers to be quite a rare find. And I always thought it would be cheating a little to pick up inquisitors just becaus of tolerance =p
If anybody has some advice on starting an undead hard/impossible of any class (preferably paladin, always been my fav of the 3) it would be much appreciated, seems like it could be an even bigger challenge than the normal no-loss with whatever units you can scrape up.

[DGDobrev]

As for the outgrowing the leadership, I remember having this problem once in KBTL. It may have been fixed in KBAP. We'll have to try it out.

[Zechnophobe]

Well, you can field an army of self healing undead if you use ghosts of both kinds, and vampires of both kinds. Sacrificing vampires before you attack with them, or ghosts afterward works fairly well. Your fifth stack can be basically anything that goes well, like Demonologists or maybe bone dragons if you want to stay in theme.

The problem, though, always comes down to winning without casualties when you face plants and machines. If you can't suck their blood, you can't ressurrect, and that pretty much ends your spree.

[Urbz]

As for the outgrowing the leadership, I remember having this problem once in KBTL. It may have been fixed in KBAP. We'll have to try it out.

I'm not sure if this is a bug/ will be fixed. It's just a feature from a really powerfull unit, although i agree an annoying one, you need to waste alot of rage/mana to keep the ghosts "in order" :rolleyes:

@ Zechnophobe: truth about no life-drainable target :mad:

[Infiltrator]

Agree it would suck (or not, literally) to be up against targets you can't suck the life out of.

Edit: Has anyone considered the use of the spell I mentioned earlier? The one that damages living to heal undead?

[DGDobrev]

Agree it would suck (or not, literally) to be up against targets you can't suck the life out of.

Edit: Has anyone considered the use of the spell I mentioned earlier? The one that damages living to heal undead?

I have confirmed that anything this spell heals/resurrects is permanent. So it can be used to recover dead undead units, which is pretty nice.

Unconfirmed data:
However, the recovery portion seems to be based on the health of the enemy stack. So if you lose a lot of units in one stack, make sure you get a decent size killed troop to resurrect them.
On the other hand, the spell description is somewhat misleading. It recovers 10-30% of the starting stack. But which starting stack would that be? Enemy or own? I'm inclined to think that it may be your own, but I'm not at all certain.

I have also confirmed that Ghosts (both types) do steal more souls than their max leadership and can outgrow it and go out of control. Usually the AI starts to ignore them (as they are hostile towards you as well) and they will eat more and more. In my test battle, I had 272 Cursed ghosts that went to 639 by the end of the battle simply because of all than ignoring. When there were no enemy units (the ghosts killed them all) the battle continues till you manage to get that stack back into your control.

So not at all like KBTL.

[Zechnophobe]

I have confirmed that anything this spell heals/resurrects is permanent. So it can be used to recover dead undead units, which is pretty nice.

Unconfirmed data:
However, the recovery portion seems to be based on the health of the enemy stack. So if you lose a lot of units in one stack, make sure you get a decent size killed troop to resurrect them.
On the other hand, the spell description is somewhat misleading. It recovers 10-30% of the starting stack. But which starting stack would that be? Enemy or own? I'm inclined to think that it may be your own, but I'm not at all certain.

I have also confirmed that Ghosts (both types) do steal more souls than their max leadership and can outgrow it and go out of control. Usually the AI starts to ignore them (as they are hostile towards you as well) and they will eat more and more. In my test battle, I had 272 Cursed ghosts that went to 639 by the end of the battle simply because of all than ignoring. When there were no enemy units (the ghosts killed them all) the battle continues till you manage to get that stack back into your control.

So not at all like KBTL.

I think that is like KBTL actually. I used Ghosts in a similar fashion, and had similar problems. However, I do recall two tiers of 'out of control'. The first being when they went slightly over their leadership, in which case they would attack and move randomly, but wouldn't attack your guys. The second when they got a 'lot' over your leadership, in which case they would be considered a foe until you knocked them back in line.

Does AP skip straight to the second effect then?

[DGDobrev]

Yeah. It simply depends which is closer. However, chancer are like 80/20 to attack a remaining enemy stack if there is one in range, otherwise, it will go for your own stack.

This is why if I decide to try an undead army, I should make it:

Black Knights
Ancient Vampires
Vampires
Necromancers
Demonologists

and Bone dragons + skeleton archers in reserve. The ghosts are great, but they are simply too damn unreliable. If they outgrow your leadership twice, it will take at least 2 rounds of suffering some losses to drop them down to their normal stack size.

I for one, would love if there was something in the game to regulate that condition - whether to drain souls or stay at max leadership. But there isn't one and I'll have to find other options, and of course, adapt my tactics :)

[Elwin]

Hmm about undead army new zombie ability to pass his move to someone else is also nice so i would considered them as well

[DGDobrev]

Well, the zombies have 36 HP, the other type of zombies have 48. That's kinda low in my opinion if I am to avoid big losses in some of the fights. In addition to that, their initiative is really low - 2 for normal zombies, 1 for the better ones.

As for losses... you need to minimize them, because you don't have an ample supply of those units all the time. They're found on nameless and a few other islands.

[Infiltrator]

Yea it's kinda low. Since I made this thread I've decided to go with the demon route and even with a 100 lowest HP unit (succubus) I sometimes have problems with AoE like giants stomping. I solve those by putting pentagram below my demons to raise morale and thus defense.

But I don't know how you would protect the zombies from such attacks without having to waste stoneskin or some other spell on them.

(I'm considering this is a no-loss game).

[DGDobrev]

Demons can be much easier to get a no-loss. Besides, they're the best dragon-mincers because of the high fire resistance.
Undead are worse - negative fire resistance, and high posion resistance. However, there are more units dound fire damage than units with poison damage.

That's assuming you're trying different lineups :) With lizards, you can always squeeze in a paladin, same is orcs, dwarves and elves.

[Infiltrator]

Yep, definitely more fire-breathing enemies than poisoning ones. I think the good thing they did with demons is that they are more vulnerable to poison regardless of their 0 resistance (like most living units) because you can't heal it off them.

[DGDobrev]

Well, you can dispell it, but that is not the same, yeah. Well, in any case, the idea is to have fun. Looking at the theoretical scenarios, you can't do a no-loss with demon and undead lineups, but you can have some fun trying different armies. Makes the game interesting :)

[Infiltrator]

I agree, that's why I immediately ruled out paladins, inquisitors etc. from my 1st playthrough (which I plan to do with a no-loss considering I'm familiar with all of the Heroes series and KBTL mechanics). They are just the obvious choice for troop conservation and too vanilla for my taste.

Edit: more on topic, I think Black Knights really lack the HP. Sure they have good physical resistance, but for 160 HP they are hardly a tank. Sure they can do decent DPS once they've been attacked enough times, but it eludes me how a black knight in full plate armor can take the same amount of damage as a demonologist in a robe..

[DGDobrev]

Well, the black knights have 30% phys resistance, demonologists do not. However, when you free moro dark, you get the shard of darkness (they have translated it splinter of darkness, which is kinda strange) and suddenly you get a tank with 30% phys resistance that can retaliate to each attack and gets improved crit with any hit. Top that up with target and stone skin and executioners can't match them at all.

[Infiltrator]

Not even with the +30% crit axe? :P

[Metathron]

This might sound like a crazy idea, but why not forget about no loss and just have fun with the undead?

[DGDobrev]

Not even with the +30% crit axe? :P

No. Crit chance only affects normal attacks :)

[Tiagop]

this might sound like a crazy idea, but why not forget about no loss and just have fun with the undead?

yeah :d

[Tibster]

Because of our huge egos!
:grin:

[DGDobrev]

Boig egos - not really. It kind of becomes like second nature when you do the battles :)