Is Zero Losses on Normal Mage possible in KB:AP?

[cicobuff]

Hi,

I started a normal mage in my 1st play through. Trying very hard to have zero losses. Basically came this far by sneaking and buying units from higher level islands before going back. At lvl 18 now with 4.5k leadership and zero loss so far.

But..... I am having problems now, I cant win against mini-bosses with zero loss (e.g. the Orc guarding the cave) that case mass damage spells. I also checked out the giant spider 30K hp!!!!

This makes me doubt whether zero loss is possible for a mage. Any advise? Anyone having success with zero loss normal mage in KB:AP?

[Tibster]

Lol , yes it is.
:)
There are people here who finished imposible with 0 losses ( it was a warrior tho ... ).

[cicobuff]

I managed to find some dragons eggs on a vendor. But they hatch chickens!!!! Is this a teaser or are there dragons hidig inside those eggs?

[Elwin]

I have gave up mage with no losses .. some heroes are just too nasty with their spells to do that ...

[cicobuff]

I'm giving up also..... everything is lethal/very strong/impossible....

Even when I sneaked pass some patrols and reached the vendors. None sold anything I could recruit or use to turn the tide......

Is zero-loss on a Warrior possible on Normal? The skills on the Warrior tree dont look so impressive also. Unless the leadership and def/att attributes growth is much better compared to mage, I think I'll have a hard time too.

[Elwin]

Warrior is hard on early begginig only, ( not harder than mage anyway) when you got dive dragon skill you just start instantyl kill everything ... i know it, i play mage and my brother warrior. And we are at same point but i have to think like crazy to win any battle with no losse and it takes me lot of time whlie my brother just dive dive dive and thats alll, almost instant win... Just pump up migfht runes in rage and dragon exp ....

[Zhuangzi]

I'm giving up also..... everything is lethal/very strong/impossible....

Even when I sneaked pass some patrols and reached the vendors. None sold anything I could recruit or use to turn the tide......

Is zero-loss on a Warrior possible on Normal? The skills on the Warrior tree dont look so impressive also. Unless the leadership and def/att attributes growth is much better compared to mage, I think I'll have a hard time too.

I am up to 89 fights without loss on Impossible as a Warrior, so I'd say almost certainly yes. Some heroes do look especially challenging though (Zig Zag on Rusty Anchor who likes to cast Geyser springs to mind). But there's always a way around it - it might mean have a particular team for boss fights (i.e. those with high hp).

[cicobuff]

I am up to 89 fights without loss on Impossible as a Warrior, so I'd say almost certainly yes. Some heroes do look especially challenging though (Zig Zag on Rusty Anchor who likes to cast Geyser springs to mind). But there's always a way around it - it might mean have a particular team for boss fights (i.e. those with high hp).

Wow I'm impressed. My mage is at about 85 battles no loss and that is only normal. I get the nagging feeling that maybe if I assigned my skills properly I can do it. But with everything at Very Strong at least, I just cant seem to progress. Zig Zag is a bitch, I just bypassed him into the cave.

Elwin's tip on the Rage + Dive combo sounds interesting. Not sure if it can produce zero loss though.

Is there a chart that indicates how much leadership/att/def defers between the classes? I am quite sad that I have to stop with this character and restart as a warrior. I thought that Normal setting was easy but this is way way harder than KB:L.

Maybe I should not aim for zero-loss on my 1st play through..... nah, zero-loss all the way!

[Zhuangzi]

Wow I'm impressed. My mage is at about 85 battles no loss and that is only normal. I get the nagging feeling that maybe if I assigned my skills properly I can do it. But with everything at Very Strong at least, I just cant seem to progress. Zig Zag is a bitch, I just bypassed him into the cave.

Elwin's tip on the Rage + Dive combo sounds interesting. Not sure if it can produce zero loss though.

Is there a chart that indicates how much leadership/att/def defers between the classes? I am quite sad that I have to stop with this character and restart as a warrior. I thought that Normal setting was easy but this is way way harder than KB:L.

Maybe I should not aim for zero-loss on my 1st play through..... nah, zero-loss all the way!

DGDobrev has a thread with a ton of information in it about various aspects of the game. It's around hereabouts...but basically I think that Warrior will be significantly easier than Mage, at least to start with, because the Mage is crippled by tiny leadership (at least on Impossible). For reference, I am up to about 6100 leadership by level 14 with the Warrior, although that does count +1000 for 50 fights without loss and plenty of flags picked up on Verona and the dwarf land (forgotten its name :!:)

[cicobuff]

Oh my gosh. With only lvl14, you have got 6+k? I am at lvl18 and is at only 5.8k, and that is also with items and flags etc.

I have a choice, either restart as a normal warrior and try again at no loss or just accept that I'll loose a few troops and soldier on. But looking at the stacks, even if I accept losses, it's gonna be a hell of a ride as a mage....

[Elwin]

I am lvl 14 mage with 3,7k leadership ... including medal for 50 battles ... Leadership hads nothing to do with difficulty ..

[cicobuff]

I am lvl 14 mage with 3,7k leadership ... including medal for 50 battles ... Leadership hads nothing to do with difficulty ..

I'm lvl18 with about 5+k. Playing on normal only though.

Hmmmm, I don't find that "leadership don't matter" strictly true. Bigger stacks allow me to wipe out opposing stacks more easily. Also, reduces chances of enemy heroes casting a random direct spell against me if I can finish the battle quicker.

My mage just does not have the capability to wipe out stacks with spells alone. I'm relying a lot on slow/helplessness/bless/paladin's resurrect etc to help me. Maybe that's why I'm having problems.

Should I have loaded up on Chaos Magic 3 and fire dmg boosters and nuke the enemy instead?

[DGDobrev]

Normal no-loss mage is completely plausible. You will need to employ some "strange" tactics.

Try to do a lot of map stealing and do quests that do not involve fighting. That will get you well within level 18-20 if you do it properly and get all the way to Reha. You may lose a week, but it is worth it. You will most certainly end up with a bunch of dragon eggs, tirex eggs, a lot of paladins, lizards, etc., as well as some decent spells, 200k+ gold (that's on impossible, so on normal it will be at least 350k), cool artifacts and so on. You do need to be careful, to save often and be nimble :P

As for the dragon eggs that hatched chicken, that is a prank. however those chicken lay golden eggs. They will not lay them for you, but they are sold for 2500 in the castles. The Dwarf on Tekron has a special line in the dialogue with him, with amelie asking why the dragon eggs are so cheap. Try it out. The normal dragon eggs cost over 10k. Those were only 2k. You should expect some foul play here :)

As for the spells it is completely up to a personal preference. In the beginning, your mage will not be that effective. Its true firepower shows around lvl 35+, where you will be able to upgrade some of the items and stock up on intellect. If you expect to do some damage with 10-15 int, you won't be able to, so I'd rather use debuffs at that time and an occasional 2x flaming arrow to boost the fire mage medal and grant myself some extra mana.

EDIT: As for the leadership doesn't matter, I totally support that it doesn't. Provided you have good tactical thinking and know your spells and army well, you can win a battle with an enemy that outnumbers you threefold without losses :)

[cicobuff]

Normal no-loss mage is completely plausible. You will need to employ some "strange" tactics.

Try to do a lot of map stealing and do quests that do not involve fighting. That will get you well within level 18-20 if you do it properly and get all the way to Reha. You may lose a week, but it is worth it. You will most certainly end up with a bunch of dragon eggs, tirex eggs, a lot of paladins, lizards, etc., as well as some decent spells, 200k+ gold (that's on impossible, so on normal it will be at least 350k), cool artifacts and so on. You do need to be careful, to save often and be nimble :P

As for the dragon eggs that hatched chicken, that is a prank. however those chicken lay golden eggs. They will not lay them for you, but they are sold for 2500 in the castles. The Dwarf on Tekron has a special line in the dialogue with him, with amelie asking why the dragon eggs are so cheap. Try it out. The normal dragon eggs cost over 10k. Those were only 2k. You should expect some foul play here :)

As for the spells it is completely up to a personal preference. In the beginning, your mage will not be that effective. Its true firepower shows around lvl 35+, where you will be able to upgrade some of the items and stock up on intellect. If you expect to do some damage with 10-15 int, you won't be able to, so I'd rather use debuffs at that time and an occasional 2x flaming arrow to boost the fire mage medal and grant myself some extra mana.

EDIT: As for the leadership doesn't matter, I totally support that it doesn't. Provided you have good tactical thinking and know your spells and army well, you can win a battle with an enemy that outnumbers you threefold without losses :)
Thanks DGDobrev, you may have confirmed my fears. That is my mage has taken on wrong skills.

I'm at level 18 right now and is finding progress with zero loss not possible =(.
I think I may have gotten about 200-300k in total with some nice items. Now I'm finding it extremely difficult to progress. Everything is Very Strong. I just can kill them fast enough before they reach my lines.

I was thinking that I probably took on the wrong skills. Seeing your reply now confirms it. Sigh. Time for a restart, at least I take the knowledge with me in my new game. =)

[DGDobrev]

If you restart, get a game with verona map near the bridge on scarlet wind and try to learn to kite away map guardians. The tactics thread has some nice info on how to do it. You will be amazed where your mage's gonna go using some stealth and guille :) It takes a while to accomplish it, though.

[cicobuff]

After having a shower and thinking through some of the tips here.

I know where I went wrong. I had taken on some mind tree skills thinking that they are useful but ended up squandering my runes.

I should have gone heavy Order and Distortion magic instead. With res at lvl 3, I can then take my time finishing up battles without losses.

I had instead taken a hybrid approach, thinking that Chaos 3 would help me but as has been pointed out, it's useless at beginning to even mid game.

Ok restart. As ANOTHER MAGE =).

I do engage in luring away guardians with limited success. It was enough to get me to map 6 I think, although I only managed to clear 3 maps.

[Zhuangzi]

I think Order and Distortion are very important no matter what class you are (but especially for the mage). Magic runes are a chronic problem for me as a Warrior - I have Order and Distortion 2 but I could really use level 3 for both. I won't bother with Chaos at all.

I know that leadership isn't everything, but it really, really helps. Especially when you think that the leadership effects how many Paladins and Inquisitors you can have, which in turn increases your Resurrection power.

[cicobuff]

I guess I'll change my mind and I'll not go so hardcore on my first play through and start with a normal Warrior instead to avoid frustration. Maybe mage after my first game =).

[DGDobrev]

Zhuangzi is right. As a warrior, you can skill Chaos magic at all (or maybe put lvl 1 in it only for sacrifice). The most important skill in the magic tree for both warrior and paladin classes is the summoning skill. It imporves the summoned creatures by the phantom spell by up to 50%. You well know what that means :)

[Elwin]

Well i am at similiar point .. Almost everything very strong i have cleraed easier enemys on rusty achor and hoped to have some kills in verona but they are kinda to strong ... leadership matters ...
Of course with decent spells you can kill army much bigger than yours .. but you must have it .. and i dont .. I have tried sneaking but kinda failes ... my brother somehow managed to steal umkas map in verona and he got plenty of royal throns there but i kinda have serious problem to steal any map now ... and those who i could manage to kill with no loss contained verona map so i ended with having only stupid scrolls ..

[Tibster]

Mage has the advantage only in the late game , when he is at a decent level, so mage is a chalange better left for later when u already know all the triks, the ability to double cast 6 times is godly , if u make it that far , and have a good spell library.

[cicobuff]

That was what I thought when I started off the mage because I used to rely on spells a lot to avoid losses, just didnt realise AP is so punishing.

[Tibster]

Ap is ..... a reword for the fans so to say.
I like it , but i will not play imposible , because at hard i am chalanged but i can also enjoy myself.
Try mage after u finish as a warior , and u could try easy , that is how i started in the old KbL, no shame here.

[cicobuff]

My problem is not so much being unable to continue but to continue without loss =). Yea, quite machochistic.

Ok, I restarted as a Warrior and got very lucky. At Scarlet Wind, I drew the Recruiter (I think) from the tent and got PALADINS!!!! in it. Gonna breeze through the 1st island and see how it goes.

[Zhuangzi]

cicobuff, you will have a better time with the Warrior, trust me. :cool:

I guess the Mage is a harder challenge for when we get better at the game.

[cicobuff]

I'm with a warrior now and with the lucky paladin spawn, it became toooo easy. A lot of the troops are running away from me in the starting map. Hmmmm, saving up the stacks for the items that require victories.

But it makes for a poor comparison though, I dont remember getting paladins in my 1st game from that tent.

[Elwin]

Sneaked the umkas map got royal thorn and now sneaked the nameless island map, and hoping for some nice stuff there !!. Heading to nameless now ! :) I feel the same cico .. i can win .. but i cant win no loss.. and i think i will just win the game without on mage ... its too much masochistic

[travelingoz]

If you're going to play Mage on AP with no losses then you're going to need to do some sneaking first! You also need to make sure you have the Ancient Amulet available somewhere as well as some other intellect boosting items.

To avoid wasted time and and disappointment,(especially on higher levels) i recommend you save at King Mark's castle at the start, then refuse the training in Debir and take a look at what you're going to get to start with. You might also like to grab the Bolo map and go and get the amulet so you can see what items will be available after you get the first stone. For example, in my current game i had the Gladiator Sword (10 might runes) available when i first arrived at Debir. After I got the amulet from the cave in Bolo and returned, the Ancient Amulet (10 magic runes) was available in the Debir castle, too! If you go to Scarlet, Bolo, Verona, Rusty Anchor, Tekron and then back to Debir, it should take less than 3 days and you should be level 14 or so by then. So you will have a ton of runes to play with and cash to buy the good items.

In terms of prioritising skills; Personally, playing as mage on impossible, i do upgrade the Might tree to level 2 training for the pet dragon because the Exp on imposssible is only 60%. This way by the time i get to Rusty Anchor, i have level 2 Dive and level 3 lightening available which effectively gives me 3 spells each round to play with. I also try and get the Mind tree up to Training level 2. However i guess on lower levels this may not be necessary.

IMO the Mage skills that are most important early on are Chaos, Higher Magic, Transmutation and Distortion. Having used a lot of might runes on the dragon, i would take Higher Magic level 1 before Chaos level 2 to start with. That way i can cast 1 buff/debuff and 1 damage spell for the first 2 rounds, which is enough to sail through Debir and most of Scarlet. Then as i level up i take Chaos 2 then Higher 2 then Chaos 3 and then probably Distortion 2 before Higher 3. Finally, i go for the extra 2 Destruction levels. I usually leave the Order until later as if you're not letting the enemy get at your units in the first place, resurrection is not so important.;)

Most of the boss fights are not so hard with a good combination of summoning units and spells. With some of the earlier boss fights though, sometimes it's helpful if you've found Dryads otherwise Beholders do nicely too! Split them into 2 or 3 seperate stacks along with maybe Paladins and Royal snakes or Griffins. First try to take out the mind immune units then keep the rest asleep while you blast away. Ideally you don't want to let the boss get a chance to cast! If the boss is going to get a turn, try to make sure you have one cast left so you can dispel any burning or poisoning effects. Later on you will definitely need the 50 mana Star spell that does Astral damage and Timeback, but you can get by with some good tactics (Think Chaos magic!) until at least Montero! Good luck!:grin:

P.S. I will try and post a good list of no-fight quests that can be done early game in this thread later.

EDIT: Done! http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=11214

[Elwin]

Well first what i did when i starred was sgo on ship nad sneak was what possibly up to rusty anchor, then i won the fight with guardan for verona map nad then sneak umkas then nameless and now i foound shettera map ungarded there :) .. but i do not get how you got levels there i barely see any quest without fight .. the only was on rusty anchhor to collect bottles ..

[DGDobrev]

Well, so far I haven't seen bosses skiping a turn unless they need to summon something, and there is no room for that. Even in this case, there is about 75% chance that they will use their mass attack then, which is undesirable...

Maybe you should write a guade versus the bosses this tactic worked and the difficulty you tried it on :)

[travelingoz]

They don't get a turn if all of their units are asleep. Similary, on Bolo for example, take out everything but the Beserkers first in the two barbarian boss fights. The Beserkers are on auto and the boss will never be able to cast! (Obviously, the all droid army presents a different challenge and a different strategy is required.)

If anyone is having a particular problem with a boss then i'd be more than happy to write a guide but usually their armies have different troops every game so it's hard to write a generic one....

EDIT: Elwin check here http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=11214

[cicobuff]

Nice tips. I'll keep them in mind on this play through as a Warrior.

[cicobuff]

Ok I followed the tip and went ahead to kite the guardian in Bolo. Was rewarded with Paladins for hire at the mage tower. But the items are not that impressive, the is a +5 sword with 50% vs dragons though. There was unfortunately no amulets or weapons that reward runes after 50 battles.

Do you guys recommend continuing or restart?

Another question is that the tutorials give items and xp. Do i miss those if I skip the tutorials? Funny that in my plays I had never skipped the tutorials.

[Elwin]

not impresive? one of the best swords in kb:l? lol ;p

[cicobuff]

not impresive? one of the best swords in kb:l? lol ;p
Heh, the 50% anti-dragon is sure handy but is AP as heavy in dragons as KB:L? Seriously clueless here =).

[travelingoz]

I would reload and try again. You need that Ancient Amulet! The idea with doing a full save right at start before you get to Debir is so you can check first. If you get some good gear, then reload from your orignal save and you can do your training then. (Means you have to sneak to Bolo again later but practice makes perfect i guess. :-P)

BTW. Paladins are always available in the mages tower on Debir after you get the first stone. Just the quantity varies from 6~14/15 or so.

[Tibster]

Do u count 1 as the one u recive or the 1 so the one u get for the amulet qwest ?

[travelingoz]

Do you mean Amulet Tibster? The Ancient Amulet artifact can be used to get 10 magic runes after 50 battles. The Amulet for the quest can be used for a bonus 50 leadership and when returned to Debir, updates the items/troops in the castle and mages tower.

[cicobuff]

I would reload and try again. You need that Ancient Amulet! The idea with doing a full save right at start before you get to Debir is so you can check first. If you get some good gear, then reload from your orignal save and you can do your training then. (Means you have to sneak to Bolo again later but practice makes perfect i guess. :-P)

BTW. Paladins are always available in the mages tower on Debir after you get the first stone. Just the quantity varies from 6~14/15 or so.

I see. Ok bye bye dragon slayer sword =). But I guess it's not needed till end game.

I was lucky to have the paladins in the tent then. Sure save me tons of time sneaking in Debnir. Also, are items generated when you start game or when you first access map? Is that why I should save before teleporting via portal?

Edit: Ok followed advise and got the Ancient Amulet as a purchasable item in the mage tower. Wish me luck =).

Also, items dont regenerate even if I reload save from before I hit denir. So I saved just before the training dialog instead.

[Tibster]

No at some point in the game ( u finish a qwest ) some stuff apears.

[Elwin]

Yeah ancient amulet is very important for a mage and whould help a lot but i am not gonna restart the game unless i will be stuck completly and so far i always find the way to overcome problems. at the tower i got only that stupid 88k ring but i see its bad morale so i do not bother to take such thing

[cicobuff]

No at some point in the game ( u finish a qwest ) some stuff apears.

Yea I know that. What I meant was that items are pre-generated at game creation. So saving before I go debnir (where you talked to your father) and reload produced same items. In that case, I'll rather save at just before training.

[cicobuff]

Yeah ancient amulet is very important for a mage and whould help a lot but i am not gonna restart the game unless i will be stuck completly and so far i always find the way to overcome problems. at the tower i got only that stupid 88k ring but i see its bad morale so i do not bother to take such thing
Yea that ring was indeed silly. I think I got it as a reward in the chest under the cuttlefish cave after a battle with the zombie army in my first play through.

[Elwin]

well this cuttlefish cave provides pretty decent items as i see. i got vampric sword there and drum increasing morale. And on nameless i got nice items for UD .. if i hav chosen undead to play i have really good items .. but i cant imagine no losses with undead army ... grate bonuss but decreases morale of humans and i use paladins and inquis ..

[DGDobrev]

To return to the topic. I'll see where the game will take me. Right now I'm lvl 22, 80 no-loss battles on impossible. I did the stealth tactic all the way to reha and it paid off. So far the best enemies I see are "strong" on verona. Things will change, but with any luck, I think I can get a pretty decent amount of battles without losses.

[cicobuff]

To return to the topic. I'll see where the game will take me. Right now I'm lvl 22, 80 no-loss battles on impossible. I did the stealth tactic all the way to reha and it paid off. So far the best enemies I see are "strong" on verona. Things will change, but with any luck, I think I can get a pretty decent amount of battles without losses.
Wow, that is really amazing. I am finding it difficult to bypass all the dang patrolling troops, never mind snatching the maps. =)

[Elwin]

yeah .. i have gave up sneaking on rusty anchor and i regret it now. I see i can get to shettera like that and maybe there i will find next map. Next time i will play will definetly do full sneaking first.

[cicobuff]

Is it possible to sneak past the map guard in scarlet wind? The one where there is a cul-de-sac in a circular open area? The one guarding the map is an assasin stack. I can get their attention by they stop moving after only a very short distance and stands there before turning back.

[Elwin]

I have never sneaked there myself, i got rusty anchor on bolo, and after that the guardian for verona map on scarlet islands was easy to defeat but i guess it is possible since stealing maps from rusty anchor is really hard ...

[DGDobrev]

Well, it takes some skill to do it, as well as a few attempts. I must tell you that my map stealing quest took my over 6 hours real time, because of all that saving and loading.

As for the no-loss thingy, I wouldn't be very presumptuous right now. So far the game is easy thanks to the extra levels, but I haven't found even 1 leadership-boosting item, which I imagine will cause a serious problem later on. My previous playthroughs with the warrior and the paladin on impossible have clearly shown that especially during the castle sieges, boss fights and such, it is very hard to survive without casualties.

Nevertheless, I'll try it and see how for I can go.

[travelingoz]

Yes it is possible. Just pause and quick save often! If you are looking head on, i found it easiest to approach from the right under the wooden spar that's sticking out of the ground, approach from that side towards the rock to get the guardian interested. Then try and draw it out to the left slightly. As soon as it's out level with almost the front of the rock, you can double back again under the spar and run in and grab the map. Grab the loot chest first otherwise there isn't enough room to snatch the map and turn around without getting busted!

[Elwin]

depends which map .. the one on the umkas near the statue or on the nameless was really easy and some are insane hard to take (like the on rusty anchor ... its too narrow .. if there werent fence there ...)

[travelingoz]

Just a thought Elwin. If you have time, you might want to combine all of these threads in a "Map Kiting" sticky...

[Elwin]

Map kiting sticky guide is good but have to think how to do it, to not make it long thread with things not related to the topic

[Elwin]

Nammeless isle is fking sweet ! everything can be kited and i got 200 demonoligsts, pain skull, lots of leadership and sacrifice spell, just target, timeback, fire rain and resurect spells and i am done. Hope to get some of the in shattera

And now shattera ice snake and fire rain :) os timeback target and res yet needed .. so my trip nameless shaterra bruoght me from lvl 14 3,7k ld to almost 19 6,7k leadership and i am mage ! :) i have dished droids and took demonologist (tons of them on both islands)and executoniers\


but one problem since i was in nameless my ld let me have 23 demonoligst now its 32 after shettera .. and whn i try go there i am getting atack instantly .. day passed and still the same ? will it be forever like that? ...9 demonologist wuold kinda help ..

Just dog out ress scroll with pet dragon :D Its marvelous


NOw i can say that i play game ... with setup royal thorn inqi paladin royal griffins demelgoist i have 3 summoner and 3 ressers + ress spell .. just royal thorn can be little a problem in case of no losses so wil exchange if required

[DGDobrev]

Grats, Elwin.

As for my progress, I've done my 105th no-loss battle. Popped up chests - 315! Still nothing that boosts leadership though... I kinda envy you, because I have only 8k leadership on lvl 25 - not to mention that this is really low for impossible. Worst case scenario, I'll put more than 1 point in Glory. We'll see. And you're 19 with 6.9k. Good work :)

[Elwin]

yeah if i dont take demons or torns which cant be ressed even zagzag with his damn geyyser was not a problem .. he just wasted mana and then i ressed all dead with paladin xD

And i have little handicpa since skull of pain so i dont have that much mana to nuke/ress

[DGDobrev]

Well, in any case, you cannot miss on the skull. When I take it (if I get it), I will also use it all the time. No mage can miss out on +5 intellect.

BTW, here's a fun save. The task is to beat up the droid army without a loss, ending with full rage and mana, while popping up all 3 chests on the battlefield and getting at least 1 point to the Trapper medal counter :) It's not that hard at all :)

I also fixed the values in the previous post. I kinda got a little bit ahead of myself there.

[Elwin]

I know skull is great and its good i went for it so early so i have many easy fights now on rusty anchor/verona so i can level it up, also when demonoligst summon a demon in front of enemy i cast mana spring on it .. no more mana problem than :p

[DGDobrev]

Absolutely. BTW, one of the spells I lack is mana spring... But I'm managing. Just did a few wicked battles. First Odin Alleim, Castle Bristol. Down, 0 losses. After that Peter Drayn, the armageddon guy with 7k peasants and demonesses. 0 losses, but it was a really tough fight. Then Zebat, or whatever his name was in the castle where Delaware is held. Down, 0 losses. And finally, Halt the giant. Down, 0 losses. All of them were listed invincible.

That was fun :) Maybe I should have put a +50% XP scroll, but I usually keep those for level 40 upwards...

[Elwin]

Halt army is very weak on my game but his ice snake screw no loses badly. Uff did it .. first time i am happy that enemy dodged my attack, late snakes would make me loses if enmy died on counteratack

[DGDobrev]

Progress report.

Halfway through the game now. 140 battles without losses. I haven't strayed from the starting party one bit, mainly using sacrifice to fill up the ranks (barely purchasing units). I'm still using Tirexes, Gorguanas, Inquisitors, Archmagi and Choshas, backed up by Paladins and Knights.

Just to show how bad the mage fares compared to the other heroes, here's my army complement:

5 Tirexes
94 Gorguanas
119 Inquisitors
59 Archmagi
51 Choshas
54 Paladins
74 Knights

By that time, my army was is the hundreds both as a paladin and as a warrior. But what can you expect with the measly 11 978 leadership...

[Elwin]

hm progres report, left some few hardest heroes on verona and went to montero so far its easy here but of course there will be some invincible stacks oh and meanwhile i visited tekron and dersu :p Got elon map but havent been there yet

lvl 25 9,5k leadership and just a few fights left for pain skull, well my game is not no lose since log time but i lost some units in only a few battles

Just wiped deck floor with invincible hero in montero :p a lots of just melees is as easy as weak enemies infact.As zhuangzi stated army composition matters .. i have invicibles in verona but with 400+ imps 100_ archmages and some horseman and other stuff its troublesome enemy

Also founded target in Tekron so need yet tima back and phantom ..


Cleread most of montero easily even some invicibles i tried .. xerxes with his geyser and a lot of cyclops made me mad so i left him and i didnt touvh castles yet. But anyway even invincibles are not really a problem now

[DGDobrev]

Progress report.

I seem to have completed about 2/3 of the game. 200 no-loss battles completed. 3 of the bosses are down - The Driller, the Spider and the Dersu Frog. There are only 4 places to clean out yet - Shatterra, Elon, Nameless and Reha. So far, so good.

The Mage is lvl 44, 19.7k leadership. I'm keeping up pretty much the same party, I only switched the Choshas with Demonologists. The Choshas did their work awhile ago - got me that battle alchemy lvl 3 medal, which affects burning from spells as well, so I needed it badly.

In any case, for a mage, the Gorguanas are indispensable. Seal of Blood + A strong spell may well push up the damage into a couple of tens of thousands.

However, I'm also displeased with a lack of spells. No Ice Snake, no Geyser... I mainly rely on Flaming Arrow, Fireball, Fire rain and Lightning (got the Axe of Lightning and it boosts the spell well). I also keep on wishing on a decent item that will improve the humans morale - I have a nice Amulet of Death (+5 int, -2 human morale), and I don't want to miss out on it.

[Elwin]

Which moment do you recommed to atack first 3 bosses? For me i have cleared Dersu and i am on Uzala, i find them pretty easy. still have left arnold,demenion and marquise on verona and irnfist and dragon lair on montero .. they are too powerful more powerfull then any uzala or dersu stack. MAybe nwo when i found phantoom i have a chance.
fortunetly i have decent spells geyser do great job unless enemy has single big stacks of creatures. I have kiilled Fangol with just geyser like 90% damage and mylosses were jsut 2 rooyal snakes :p

[Zechnophobe]

Do driller once you can do 10k damage in a round (I think that's the magic number). Every time he advances to the next 'stage' of his combat, he loses his turn, meaning you can just hit him over and over again until he moves back, and then repeat. Beat him (Hard) with no losses, and I wasn't even really trying.

[Elwin]

10K damage .. my geyser/fire rain hit for 3K so not yet i tihnk ;p

[cicobuff]

Update, I followed Elwin's advise and used a Warrior and concentrated on Rage with my Pet Dragon. Having a MUCH easier time now. Currently at lvl21 and did most of Verona. Moving onto Montana or Dersu.

A Order Level 3 Shackles (dang expensive at 35! crystals) should be able to get me through Dersu easy with those shaman heavy stacks.

My concern now is how do I do that giant spider boss with no loss. Without resurrection (have yet to find it), I'll have to hold that off for quite a while. And not sure if I'm able to resurrect 1-2k worth of losses as a warrior. Will probably need to hold this off until I get defence way up. Any suggestion?

[DGDobrev]

The Bosses require some unusual cunning :) I did the spider on lvl 30, the driller on 38 and he frog on lvl 40.

In order to do the properly, you need a lot of firepower, which as a mage, is very scarce, and using spells on the bosses is simply a waste of mana, which should be used for phantoms to resurrect the fallen troops.So in essence, you need to rely on your attacking units. In my case those were the Knights and the Paladins. Since bosses mainly inflict physical damage, make sure you stock up on +phys resist stuff and put stone skin on both troops that will tank the boss.

Spider: Knights on the left, Paladins on the right, T-rex, Archmagi and Demonologists deal with the spiders he summons, and the knights help occasionally. The boss itself doesn't do that much damage, so the standard tactic: Knights with Stone skin and Magic Shield and Paladins + Stone Skin works perfectly. If you have any physical resistance boosting items, use them.
Driller: now that boss required some thinking. His gun is awful, hits everything in a straight line. This is why I did it only with 4 (!!!) troops: Knights, Paladins, Archmagi, Inquisitors. Knights and paladins hack away while the archmagi and imquisitors (both with magic damage for the droids he summons, as they are vulnerable) attacks the boss or the droids he summons. When he summons mechanics, dwindle them down to a like 5-10 units and leave them be. Finish off the boss and get resurrecting.
Dersu frog: Now that frog's awful. Her spit is poisonous, and it hits very hard. If you have healer's jacket, put it on. Forget about other bonuses. Having healer's jacket or anything that bossts poison resistance is very important. The frog itself isn't that hard, as it doesn't hit for much, especially if you do the dual tanking tactic with stone skin.

I got carried away and forgot to do a frog screen, but in any case, here's my stats after the battle if it can help.

[cicobuff]

After reading that, can't wait to get powerful enough to get those bosses =).

[Elwin]

Clerad the uzala and went to dicover Reha , timeback there :) so i am setup. for most of fights now. Thinking about the bosses. I am level 38 i would atakc them now but i know about elenhel dont wanna fight him straith after boss. Only i thing i need is nice dress .. i do not not have second for elenhel .. i saw a screen with lvl 19 with both lvl 5 dresses .. geez i wich i had them ... ha was almost 40 int with lvl 19 ... and the only place i havent dicovered is middle part of elon if they are not there i wil not have them ... and i diubt they will be there/ also do not have any regalia ...

[Elwin]

I am fucked up now .. Elenhel is my problem hes geyser is just insane ... 3 of them and my army is almost dead .. and thats just spell not even talking about beating his army ... 75 necros 75 demonologist 70 archmagis 150 druids and 900 dryads ;P Without that geyser i wuold be fine ... but h has it and use it insanely ...

[DGDobrev]

Now you see what I was up against. 115 necros, 115 Demonologists, 338 druids, 187 Archmagi and some Polar Bears.

Here's how I did it.

Put on as much physical + magical resistance gear (Antimage diplom from Elon is very useful here - +25% magic def) as possible, as well as +defense gear in advance. Make sure you use high-hp troops that have some physical resistance (preferably 20% or more). Start by casting Target + Stone Skin on your paladins. Your paladins are the troops that must survive at all costs. He'll do geyser - geyser does physical damage. You'll suffer big time, but your paladins stack will be relatively safe - probably with a few troops lost only, as stone skin lvl 3 boosts the phys resistance seriously. On the next move, put stone skin on the 1 troop who has the least physical resistance. With the second cast, slap something powerful right in their midst, while your troops are charging at the units they can kill without suffering much.

If you manage to get the AI scared at this point, it will summon animals to bolster their ranks. If you get to that point, you're relatively safe. If not, keep you paladins in shape while he geysers and summon phantom paladins to heal your other troops. Extra mana can be provided by using mana accelerator max lvl on every turn. You won't have rage problems in this fight, I can assure you.

Eventually, you'll beat the crap out of him. I know he's hard - imagine me doing him without losses, but everything is possible as long as you experiment and know the game mechanics.

To go in-depth, here's that "troops you can kill" means:

Necros do phys+magic damage. Attack them with a unit that has some of both resistances
Archmagi do magic damage. Attack them with a unit with high magic resistance, like the paladins.
Demonologists to phys+magic+fire. Knights will be a good unit to tackle them.
Druids do phys + magic. Have whatever you have attack them.
The extra unit is usually a small animal stack and is irrelevant.

[Elwin]

Nice analysis .. but hes not only geyseering hes also armagedoning xD
actualy its fight against his spells not against his army ... hes army is just nothing compared to his spell power. As i am not on no lose i was phantoming paladins all the time yet hes spells are too strong for that. I lost half of my amry, but this tips will be usefull for maybe next game play

[DGDobrev]

Well, in my game, I never allowed him to use armageddon. I was keeping his troops so busy all the time, that he was either using geyser, or he summoned some more troops. I may have been lucky, but in the end, it was a fun battle. Suffice it to say, his geyser was dropping down 1/4 of my weakest stack per cast. He's strong, but it's time to show him who's stronger :)

[Elwin]

Well i think i am gonna try bosses now, Still i have 1 stack to kill yet in montero and verona Demenion and Dragon lair .. at dragon lair its hell since dragons arent splitted .. 17 black dragon 17 red 17 emeralds ... and they do not fall in traps .. begging on second round and my 200 inquisitors were dead .. pretty troublesome .. i leavce it for later ..

Edit : dersu boses was breeze ... spider is harmless griffins sumoned tanking them and fire arow for 3k damage .. Kumatu did few aoes but no poison at all .. and he didnt like my fire rain much i think :p

[Elwin]

Whats about mirror tower? i was there but it needs other entrance .. so i do i get there by river of memories? js to know for future :p cleared tekron. And 3 bosses down only driller provided a bit challange in fact. So now umkas,elon,shattera,nameless,reha left + demenion+dragon lair in montero

[DGDobrev]

No. The mirror tower is where Zilgadis, the boss, hides. You need a ring to get in. To do so, you must clear out the 2 castles of orcs, then talk to king eliot about the tower. He will give you the ring.

[DGDobrev]

Progress report.

Just hit my 250th no-loss battle. Amelie is lvl 51 and kicking but now. Stats: Attack 20, Defense 24, Intellect 56, now at the end of day 13. A lot has changed in the last 50 battles. First of all I got a second magess' dress and geyser and I thought for a while that it's the best spell there is, and with it I can rock till the end. I was sorely mistaken. There is one much better spell, if you play correctly. That is the Death Star spell that I got from a chest on the battlefield. All I can say it - get it, try it, you'll love it as a Mage. At lvl 3 costs the whopping 50 mana, but right now it inflicts 6-9k ASTRAL damage to any target it hits. Drops 6-9 black dragons in a hit. The only thing that outclasses this spell right now in terms of damage is fire rain when I put on both Storm necklaces. Even the simple fireball is over 6.5k, and the fire arrow is about 4k with those.

So, the good news is that in KBAP, if you play the Mage, you may well see your damage go well over 10 000 with the proper equipment. That alone makes a playthrough with a Mage worthwhile.

Well, all I need to clear out now is Nameless and Reha. There are a few quests to complete on other islands as well. So far so good, but I don't feel all that confident yet. The battles against Ktahu, Zilgadis and Baal will be the ones that will determine whether the game can go without losses. Suffice it to say I didn't manage to go without losses in these 3 battles, no matter how well I played with the warrior and with the Paladin. But we'll see.

[Zechnophobe]

I managed no losses against Baal with my warrior, it was surprisingly easy actually. Make good use of Mana Spring, and PHantom a stack of paladins, and then only attack Baal himself with ranged units. Level 3 divine anger to get mana off his wussy demon stacks.

Edit: I take it back, I had some small amount of losses, but end of battle was just a stack of imps, so I could easily have resurrected if I'd wanted to.. just didn't see the point.

[Elwin]

Geez dobrev, 2 magess dresses? I dont even have one .. just black widow and advisor but thery are crap compared to magess ...
and i think there is no place i can get them .. unless they well apear in elven castles ...
deathstar i have but it requires tactics mostly to not damage my own units.

I have 53 int ... with those dresses and some upgrade i could hit well over 60 but i dont have ;/ I could rise my int anyway ... but its hard choice : inquistor blade vs archmage staff ...

[DGDobrev]

I managed no losses against Baal with my warrior, it was surprisingly easy actually. Make good use of Mana Spring, and PHantom a stack of paladins, and then only attack Baal himself with ranged units. Level 3 divine anger to get mana off his wussy demon stacks.

Edit: I take it back, I had some small amount of losses, but end of battle was just a stack of imps, so I could easily have resurrected if I'd wanted to.. just didn't see the point.

I was thinking something like this. However, as a mage, I can't get lvl 3 divine anger if I want an efficient build (I have only lvl 1), because it costs a lot of mind runes, which can go to boost rage/mana values, learning, critical chance, etc. I was thinking about max phys resistance equipment, paladins + ranged units army. Paladins get magic shield + stone skin all the time, which minimizes the damage they'll suffer dramatically. Then it's all about phantoms to recover the other stacks from baal's demons' attacks and when he throws his sword or breaks down the arena.

Ktahu is king of easy - Paladins in his weak spot and strong units with physical resistance to deal with anything he summons. His mass attack is also physical based, so any unit with high resistance will do. I may even miss out on the archmagi in this battle as well and swap them with demonologists for their summonings. We'll see.

I'm more worried about zilgadis than baal or ktahu. His mass attack is really strong (2700-3500 MAGIC damage) and he uses it often. I will leave a friendly gremlin tower standing when he's low on HP in an attempt to recover the losses after he dies, but it will be a certain problem if I'm low on mana. In any case, I'm hoping that the slippery cuirass (10% phys resistance), the anti-magic diplom (20% magic resistance) and the mirror shield (25% magic resistance) will help here. I also plan on making a party consisting of strong melee units. Knights near the left hand, Paladins near the right one (both hacking) and Horsemen + Guardsmen (or another unit with decent damage) to deal with the towers and Archmagi for shielding.

Actually, the worst thing in boss battles is that you can't use your rage to create more mana. I wonder if the Rage eater artifact works here. I'll most certainly try it out. It takes 5 rage and transforms it into 5 mana, but I don't know how often. I'll just have to use it sometime and see what happens.

@Elwin

I found the first on Reha (while I was stealing early in the game) and the second off a lying skeleton in Elon some 7-8 battles ago. So I can't say I was considering myself all that lucky throughout the game, but eventually, the second one popped up. I would also love a marshal's batton... Using it will allow me to put on the +5 int Amulet of Death. I can't do it now because of that -2 morale to all humans.

[Elwin]

I cleared elon and no dresses ;/ ukchuk was damn hard .. only melees but invincible and ogres + sheep were screwing things.
i have been on reha already .. also i do not have any baton :p i lack a few very good items
and that diplom .. from mastar dumbor? i screwed it, i didnt know what is it and i took lizard test i thought i will be able to do second test too...

[DGDobrev]

Progress report.

287 battles without losses, lvl 55 now. All that is left is to win the arena battles and fight K'tahu, Gremlion (Zilgadis) and Baal. I'll also see if there are unsuppresed or unupgraded items, but that's pretty much the end of the game, and the battles that actually prove whether I can or cannot do it without losing units.

But that will happen tomorrow.

[Elwin]

OK cleared almost all as i guessed none good items ffound ... so i am with the same stuff .. demenion was childly easy, raha death arena a was challenge for no loss..
Tomorrow bosses fight : Zilgadis, Ktahu,Baal. I went to Ktahu too look him but hell he started with AoE for 5-6k Dmg ridicoulous, I read on info thread hes only 3-4 :D. That will be hard ... this AoE would kill me in next few rounds ..
256 no loss not bad ;P

[DGDobrev]

Well, I'm almost there myself. Stock up on units with high physical resistance and if you have the slippery cuirass or twinkling boots, put them on. That should take care for part of the damage.

[Elwin]

Zilgadis was a dissapointment . .no challenge at all .. but ktahu hmm ...
have to find that cuirass but i do not remind seeing it anywhere in my game maybe i dont have it i will look .. i know my brother got 2 of them on his game ... i only have leather dress with 5% resists .. i am thinking about the army .. inqisitors and demenologists suffers most in this battle .. actualy i think i will get rid of inquis .. to low defense .. rage gaining is not neeeded and as ranged hes not doing much when lizards are summoned .. so i guess i will go for knights .. demonologist i think will stay

[DGDobrev]

Well, suffice it to say that on Impossible against ktahu, with an army of:

Paladins
Knights
Horsemen
Guardsmen
Archmagi

I can't do it without losses. That spit ktahu does on the first turn and then every 2-3 turns is absolutely awful, even with high phys resistance. Usually I lose at least 50 units after the resurrecting is done.

I'm not out of options yet though. I wonder now is how some Ghosts and Cursed ghosts will fit in this situation. They have very high physical resistance, but my problem is that I have absolutely no way of reviving them.

[Elwin]

geeez no slippery cuirass .. to additon no knights ... oooo / ihave big craploads of paladins inqis horseman guardsman .. but i have just 70 knights at frederick and 13 at demenion just 80 of 180 and those are end game main quest parts .. i could say i dont have them in my game at all lol ... what a bad luck ...

i was thinking about cyclop .. but will not have a way to resurect him ..

[DGDobrev]

Absolutely.

The army:

Paladins
Knights
Horsemen
Ghosts
Cursed Ghosts

- can do it with minimal losses. However, you'll be facing one really big problem all the time. Both ghosts must feed equally. Otherwise they'll simply outgrow their stacks and go out of control. I have confirmed it, that happens. The next thing you should be aware of is that if one of the ghosts isn't feeding enough, the stack will be killed by Ktahu's spits.

With any luck, this can be done without losses. But it must really be a stroke of luck, because come to think of it, there is no way that you can ensure that the ghosts will remain at their max leadership by the time you kill K'tahu.

[Elwin]

Looking at the units and droids also has same resistance as horseman cso i maybe try them dont know .. i am so mad i do not have knights,slippery cuirass ,twinking boots .. especialy cuirass since ofr boots i have perfect shoes and would be hard choice .. but i do not have any good armor dress so its easy to drop it .. my choice is beetwen leather dress and dragon cape .. i will choose dragon cape i think

[DGDobrev]

Well, I'm close to giving up on the no-loss thingy. It looks mathematically impossible to beat K'tahu up on impossible without losses. On the lower difficulties it may be possible, because he has less HP and the stacks he summons are fewer, but in the end, his damage output is really, really big with all those summoned creatures and spits.

[Elwin]

Calinda somehow did it .. on warrior tough .. but warior might be even in worse situation since he doesnt have his dragon .. but more leadership tough .. Calinda has 44K leadership .. i have 29k .. 15k channes a lot ;p Bit i do not have any leadership items ..

[DGDobrev]

As a warrior, it is doable, and is much easier. Stock up on mana artifacts. Take the same high physical resistant party, put on the Inquisitor's Sword and the Singing Dagger and go to battle with at least 250 paladins. As long as nothing dies completely, phantom the paladins and they will resurrect pretty much everything in 2-3 turns.

Besides, as a warrior, you get a lot more from +20% leadership scroll and you may well get close (or over) to 300 paladins. First, that's a lot of firepower and second, that's doing resurrections much easier.

I have a few options left. I can take Agvares as a companion and get a bit more paladins with the same phys resistant party. I doubt it would make much difference, but it is worth the try.

EDIT:
BAH! I almost did it this time. That tactic with agvares worked. I lost only 49 Guardsmen this time. All I needed was 20 mana and I would have done it... That may prove that it is doable, with a little bit of luck. The Rage eater is invaluable in this battle, as it allows you to convert almost all of your rage into mana after K'tahu dies.

[Elwin]

Whats special with agvares that you take him ?? Oh and i had easy uprade items so timeback + sacrifice to get full stack of my knights :P NO time to try the booss fight yet but i am gonna do the try with :

paladins
R griffs
demenologist
knights
hunters

[DGDobrev]

Agvares has a weapon slot. That allows me to wear both Inquisitor's sword and the Singing dagger. That provides extra paladins, which means extra firepower and extra resurrection power.

Actually, that tactic paid off. Both Ktahu and Zilgadis went down without me losing a unit.

Only Baal left, and I'm worried about that fight. That idiot throws his sword way too often for my liking. Archmagi and Demonologists suffer big time - usually a third of a stack goes down like this. High physical resistant units are called for once again. Stone skin is a must too.

That's the final battle... Let's see if I can get it done as well.

[Elwin]

Well all armor bearers except for elenhel do have a wepaon slot :P And i think that archer like hunter will be no go.. So i will try similiar top yours just grihin instead of guardsmen .. so hm whats your tactics ? paladin blindspot adn sending phantoms to the rest of army which kills summons? paladin is kinda to slow for that i think so horseman??

[DGDobrev]

Well, you will need some phantom support, but you will also need stone skin to minimize the losses. losses are a big problem against Ktahu, and they are even bigger problem against baal. For a mage, it's like winning a chess game vs. opponent when you take away your queen, both rooks and both bishops in the beginning. There just isn't enough firepower to deal with both the damage and the losses.

The first attempt against baal ended up with 704 losses. Nice.

There is another problem here. Bill Gilbert's Leadership is equal to your own. So if you're a warrior with 50k+ leadership for this battle (using the wanderers' scroll), Bill Gilbert will have just as much. Now that seriously tilts the scales in your favor and makes the no-loss much easier.

[DGDobrev]

Double post, but it's worth it :P

Baal down. 0 losses. Time to post in the high score thread!

[Elwin]

Well i lost very minimal against ktahu but baal ... i didnt know that he will vanish part of land and my units wii be guns so i lost a griifn and demologist .. summary of 900 casaulties but think of redoing it

[DGDobrev]

Do it :) You should be able to smat him down without much hassle :)

[Elwin]

Redid .. and fucked up moment in very end so had losses ..
Ktahu loses : 16 grifins 6 horseman 21 demonologists
Ball loses : 19 griffin 89 horseman 24 demonologists

Dobrev: gilbert army do NOT scale ... my brother with 50K ld warior has similiar army of him and i had 30k ld ..

and i hhate the dumb AI i was teleporting gilberts inquistor to not get vanished but he was coming back there ;/

[DGDobrev]

I'm not certain about that but it may be so. I noticed that this time gilbert had 180 Knights, while in my warrior playthrough he had well over 220. But, as usual, it may be random.

[Elwin]

OK i have missed 2 contraxts + training so its 86

[DGDobrev]

I guess we're both missing one if calinda made it 87 :) But it will pop up eventually. it was the same in KBTL - there was one quest on Freedom islands about some grain I think - I never knew about it will I read the guides.

[Elwin]

Yea almost evryone though there is 102 quests for a long time but in fact was 103