Plane unlocks in single player - now more relevant than ever

[Axe99]

That's exactly it - I wouldn't mind at all if there was an achievement for 1000 kills, or 200 CTA wins, or something like that, to reward the uber-keen, and give them that sense of accomplishment and elitehood - this isn't about bringing everyone down to the elite few who have the time to spend waiting in lobbies for games - but the planes that can be unlocked are seriously fun planes to fly, and are seriously handy to have in a scrap, and it seems a bit strange that (particularly given the current state of the online) that they're effectively locked off from the vast majority of gamers who are unable to find enough games to play. It also means that the people that got them first are harder to beat, so those that don't have them actually have a harder run of picking them up (try playing strike online if the bombers on your side are He-111s and the bombers on the other are B-17s - all else being equal, you lose, through no fault than your own).

It also creates a terrible incentive to boost. It's against my nature, but I could take turns with a mate to win strike games in 1v1 3 minute battles, and we'd both have the B-17 (or any other plane) far quicker than through normal play. Clearly, it's fair enough to make a friendly suggestion about tweaking the game design to make online a more level playing field and therefore more fun for everyone, and to discourage boosting.

[Cwl]

Originally Posted by Axe99

That's exactly it - I wouldn't mind at all if there was an achievement for 1000 kills, or 200 CTA wins, or something like that, to reward the uber-keen, and give them that sense of accomplishment and elitehood - this isn't about bringing everyone down to the elite few who have the time to spend waiting in lobbies for games - but the planes that can be unlocked are seriously fun planes to fly, and are seriously handy to have in a scrap, and it seems a bit strange that (particularly given the current state of the online) that they're effectively locked off from the vast majority of gamers who are unable to find enough games to play. It also means that the people that got them first are harder to beat, so those that don't have them actually have a harder run of picking them up (try playing strike online if the bombers on your side are He-111s and the bombers on the other are B-17s - all else being equal, you lose, through no fault than your own).

It also creates a terrible incentive to boost. It's against my nature, but I could take turns with a mate to win strike games in 1v1 3 minute battles, and we'd both have the B-17 (or any other plane) far quicker than through normal play. Clearly, it's fair enough to make a friendly suggestion about tweaking the game design to make online a more level playing field and therefore more fun for everyone, and to discourage boosting.

boosting always happens when you've got hard to obtain online achievments or a rank involved.

COD2 didnt have any online achievments and it was fun to play.

[Ancient Seraph]

I agree with most of it, although I would hate to see that the planes will just be lying there for the taking. I mean, the planes that can be unlocked now through single-player, don't require a difficulty setting higher than arcade, and let's be fair, arcade is easy for most of us. The more valuable planes should be harder to achieve, say, certain Single Missions or Campaign Missions on realistic or even Simulator. This would exclude a certain part of the players, since some are unable or unwilling to complete those missions, but they can just use the online unlocks. These are not so much hard as time consuming. In no way should the planes be available as easily as 'Complete this mission'.

[Axe99]

Originally Posted by Cwl

COD2 didnt have any online achievments and it was fun to play.

It did, but the CoD's aren't heavily biased against less experienced players - there's no "B-17" strength CoD perk or unlockable weapon, whereas the B-17 in strike is unstoppable, if the other side doesn't have one as well, assuming equal skill and loadouts elsewhere.

And Ancient Seraph, _Fully_ agree - I'd love to have to complete mission/chapter X on difficulty y (sim ) to unlock Plane Z - deffo not asking for all of the planes on a plate, just making them available at all. I'd much rather a good challenge for it - I'm just looking for a challenge that's practical.

For example, here's some basic maths on the time it'll take to get some of the IL-2 unlocks given the current state of online - estimated time of a game is 15 minutes (about the average, games are split roughly 50/50 at 10 and 20 minutes), and estimating that people will win 50% of them (which, on average the will), and that the time taken in a game that is completed is roughly the same as the time taken in lobbies and in games where the other side quits/there is a DC (so total time is gametime x2, which is around what it's been for me):
B-17 - 100 games at 15 minutes x 2 = 50 hours
He-111H-3 - 20 games at 15 minutes x 2 = 5 hours
IL-4 - 20 games at 15 minutes x 2 = 5 hours
Ju - 87D3 - counts towards B-17, so already counted
Spitfire XVI - Say you average 3 kills a game (probably a little optimistic for most - we're talking about what it takes for the average player to get these unlocks, not Black Death ) - so around 17 games, or 8.5 hours
Bf-109G10 - 40 games at 15 minutes x 2 = 20 hours
Fw-190F-8 - 20 games at 15 minutes x 2 = 10 hours
Bf-109K-4 - As per Spitfire XVI, 8.5 hours

So to unlock the planes, assuming average luck and that you can get on enough while there's still a good body of people playing online, you're looking at around 77 hours of play and lobby time.

Then you go onto the loadouts - I won't detail these, but the loadout requirements are far more online-game intensive than the planes. Which gives you a time requirement of probably 200+ hours for planes and loadouts. This is a _huge_ ask, and one of the most time-intensive unlocking processes I have _ever_ seen in a game - most MMOs don't take that long to reach the top level and max out your character. I actually wouldn't mind so much if it wasn't for the fact that around half of that will be time spent sitting and waiting in lobbies, or playing games that end half-way with the other side quitting out - if the online ran you from game to game quickly, and there were appropriate benefits for not quitting/penalties for quitting, you could cut this time in half, but as it stands now (and assuming there's no drop-off in player numbers over time, which is optimistic), unlocking every plane and loadout is a pretty tough ask, and one that is greatly disproportionate to any unlockables set I'm familiar with, particularly given the amount of non-game time that needs to be put in (the game time itself is very, very good ).

[Yossarian]

Originally Posted by Axe99

B-17 - 100 games at 15 minutes x 2 = 50 hours
He-111H-3 - 20 games at 15 minutes x 2 = 5 hours
IL-4 - 20 games at 15 minutes x 2 = 5 hours
Ju - 87D3 - counts towards B-17, so already counted
Spitfire XVI - Say you average 3 kills a game (probably a little optimistic for most - we're talking about what it takes for the average player to get these unlocks, not Black Death ) - so around 17 games, or 8.5 hours
Bf-109G10 - 40 games at 15 minutes x 2 = 20 hours
Fw-190F-8 - 20 games at 15 minutes x 2 = 10 hours
Bf-109K-4 - As per Spitfire XVI, 8.5 hours

You have over exaggerated to make your case. Nearly every aircraft can be unlocked in a half to a quarter or the time you stated.

I unlocked both the Spifire XVI and BF109K in two evenings and I'm not a great pilot. And I Know people that unlocked the B17 in 6 hours using Arado's, yet you exaggerate that to 50 hours. I also got the BF109G10 in a couple of hours and I have unlocked other aircraft aswell.

You figures are a load of rubbish, nothing takes as long to unlock as you make out.

Also 3 kills average per game, you want to stop playing arcade and move up to realistic, in a 20 minute game you should aim to get about 10 kills.

[FOZ_1983]

Originally Posted by Yossarian

You have over exaggerated to make your case. Nearly every aircraft can be unlocked in a half to a quarter or the time you stated.

I unlocked both the Spifire XVI and BF109K in two evenings and I'm not a great pilot. And I Know people that unlocked the B17 in 6 hours, yet you exaggerate that to 50 hours. I also got the BF109G10 in a couple of hours and I have unlocked other aircraft aswell.

You figures are a load of rubbish, nothing takes as long to unlock as you make out.

To get it in 6 hours means tickest are at the lowest (300) and time is set to the minimum (3 mins) and you have to complete 50 games in a bomber.

Realistically...who wants to play a game of strike for 3 mins eh?

answer - anyone who wants the B17 ASAP.

[Axe99]

Originally Posted by Yossarian

You figures are a load of rubbish, nothing takes as long to unlock as you make out.

Also 3 kills average per game, you want to stop playing arcade and move up to realistic, in a 20 minute game you should aim to get about 10 kills.

Firstly - these figures are based on my experience - I've got the IL-4, and it _did_ take me about 5 hours. I've spent well above 6 hours now 'working' towards a B-17, and am nowhere near half-way there. I've been playing the game heaps for the last week (at least four hours a day), such that my time online meant I only finished campaign on Sim (which didn't take too long, the transport mission out of Stalingrad was the only one I had any trouble with) yesterday. Any discrepancies in the figures will be due to:
- You playing just after IL-2 was released, when there were presumably more people online.
- 3 minute games (assuming you win half of your bomber games, 3*100 = 300 minutes = 5 hours - 10 minutes games =500 minutes=8 hours and 20 minutes). Now given the setup I have no trouble with you playing 3 minute strike games to get your B-17, but a 3-minute game of strike isn't exactly much of a contest - it's boot up, fly to the target once, drop a couple of bombs and all over (indeed, on Britain flying a Stuka in Realistic or Sim it takes longer than three minutes if you're on Team A to reach the target!)
- Also, unless you set them up yourself, you'll never see a 3-minute match. I haven't come across _one_, in five days of pretty intensive playing (and wouldn't set one up, as refer 10 or 20 minuters myself).
- Spending _no_ time waiting in lobbies. This may be due to you not being in Australia and playing at different times than me - but I guarantee that if you play IL-2 over here at any time outside of 8-10am in the morning, you'll spend a lot of time waiting in lobbies. Last night I was _very_ keen for an online game. There were none open, of course, so I set one up, went and made some toast, came back and someone popped in while I was half-way through eating it and we got an enjoyable 1v1 - this was a relatively quick lobby wait. I generally take a good book with me if I'm going to play BoP online, as without it there's plenty of staring at lobby screens (quite coincidentally, I'm currently reading the chapter on the strategic bombing campaign in his history of WWII!) But this could explain a lot of the discrepancy - my figures are based on equal times in "quality game" and in lobby/game with quitters/DCs. If you play at times when there are plenty online and don't have to wait in lobbies, and play with non-randoms (folk who don't quit when they're losing) this would explain a lot of the difference (with the 3-minute games the rest). But keep in mind that it's not really practical for me to make my IL-2 playing time 5am to 10am over here!
- 10 kills in a 20-minute game?! I'm not sure which BoP you're playing, but in a three 1v1 dogfights on Sim yesterday the most either of us had was 4 kills (and it sure as hell wasn't me - I got 0 kills in the first two games - so a _skilled_ player (edal86) couldn't get your rate of kills (5 in 10 minutes) against someone who's pretty average). On a 20 minute CTA or Strike game on realistic I average 2 kills, and a mate I play with who's actually quite good (which I'm not ) hasn't got more than 7 (and he's generally topped the kill count). I've played at least 20, 20-minute realistic games of BoP, and a number of Sim ones, and on not _one_ occasion seen anyone get 10 kills. Is this _really_ the average number of kills for people on both sides of the game, or are you and your mates ganging up and smashing new players?

[Lexandro]

Originally Posted by Yossarian

Also 3 kills average per game, you want to stop playing arcade and move up to realistic, in a 20 minute game you should aim to get about 10 kills.

Sorry but thats not accurate at all. I play Arcade and usually average 5 kills per match in Team Battle. In other modes my kill ratio is much higher which made it much easier to unlock the Spitfire. Strike and CTA are the two modes where its easier to rack up a high kill ratio, what with the bombers in strike and the stationary targets in CTA.

I think the unlocks are to time consuming for MP myself though. Some are plain daft(IL2 unlocks),and some are just a pain in the arse (B-17). They really do need reworking as its creating a heavily biased online experience.

[Axe99]

Originally Posted by Lexandro

Sorry but thats not accurate at all. I play Arcade and usually average 5 kills per match in Team Battle. In other modes my kill ratio is much higher which made it much easier to unlock the Spitfire.

And I'd wager, Lexandro, that you're a better than average player, as 5 kills is definitely not the average number of kills for everyone in any game of Team Battle I've been in. I'm arguing this for the average player, not for the top guns out there .

[Lexandro]

Weeeeeeeelll, not to toot my own horn but I am not to shabby at Arcade.

But I was actually meaning that when I first attempted to go for an unlock it was the Spitfire MkXVI. And I got it without to much fuss overall. And this was when I would considered myself to be "wet behind the ears" (so to speak) for playing BoP online.