Why the need for German planes?

[Lightsped]

I am not really interested in the good and the bad things that various countries have done in the past. Save that for the history books.....

I am interested in having a fun flying game with more replayablity and options. This idea is not something new as many game publishers/developers have produced high selling games featuring Allies and the Axis powers of WW2....

Anyone here ever heard of LucasArts "Their Finest Hour" or "Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe"??? Both of these WW2 flying games were made in the 1990s, and were very successful.... How about Call of Duty? Are those who play as the Germans or Japananese committing unethical acts??

[Shub]

I really appreciate to read Anton's point of view concerning the german's campaign. I have read the full previous thread concerning the same issue and would like to thank him for taking the time to reply to us.

Anton, I assume that people are mainly refering to the starvation in Ukrain when talking of a 20 million death toll for USSR...

Anyway, I respect the devs' decision concerning the german campaign. But, still, I would welcome more german or japanese sp missions.

[H Lecter]

Originally Posted by Shub

Anyway, I respect the devs' decision concerning the german campaign. But, still, I would welcome more german or japanese sp missions.

Concluding from Anton's reply in this thread I guess there could be an Axis campaign in BoP II or eventually as DLC...

[M3-SRT8]

Originally Posted by Anton Yudintsev

First of all, I am not against fighting for axis airbattles. I was against them in Birds of Prey. It is our first console flight-sim, and we were going to make it as flawless as possible.
Fighting for Axis, even in game, is not 100% ethical.

Second, please, don't re-type bullshit about USSR. Of course, there were executions, but nothing close to 20 million, even number of all prisoners (with criminals, like thiefs or bandits), not all of them executed, is less than that. Less than 1 million of executions (but close to), is something very huge, but it isn't anyhow close to what Axis did. It's something close to what USA did to thier people during great depression.

Also, the main differences is reasoning. Axis - were executing people because of their _race_. Stalin - was just a dictator, he was trying to keep power (and did it not for his own wealth, but for the country - that's was how he understood 'lesser evil' concept).

Every country has it's black pages. But in Birds of Prey gamers (like real soldiers of world war2) are not fighting for Stalin or against some of his opposers. Those days people were fighting for freedom, for survival - against evil. Not all of Germans were Nazis of course. Not even most of them. But all German soldiers were fighting for Nazi.

It doesn't mean that fighting for Axis airforce in any game is 100% unethical.
But on the other hand, fighting for Allies IS 100% ethical.

Oh, please. You're going to defend Stalin?

From 1931-1933 ALONE, about 3-5 million Ukranians starved to death from the forced Collectivization due to Stalin's "policies." He could have cared less.

Oh, right. They did it for the collective "Good of The Soviet Union."

I won't relist all the atrocities conducted under Stalin's Reign of Terror. Any number of books on the market by Robert Service, Simon Sebag Montefiore, etc, can do it better than I.

The point is, Stalin, who entered into a deal with Hitler in August 1939, so that the latter could START the Second World War, and who grabbed Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, and Half of Poland, then immediately rounded up and executed their people in the Ten's of Thousands (remember the Katyn Massacre?) was just as bad, if not worse, Than Hitler.

I don't want to "fight" for Der Fuhrer, any more than I want to fight for Koba (Stalin's nickname). I just would like to fly ALL the airplanes involved in the conflict.

..., and I don't think I'm alone.

LJB

[Apeboy]

Originally Posted by Anton Yudintsev

First of all, I am not against fighting for axis airbattles. I was against them in Birds of Prey. It is our first console flight-sim, and we were going to make it as flawless as possible.
Fighting for Axis, even in game, is not 100% ethical.

Second, please, don't re-type bullshit about USSR. Of course, there were executions, but nothing close to 20 million, even number of all prisoners (with criminals, like thiefs or bandits), not all of them executed, is less than that. Less than 1 million of executions (but close to), is something very huge, but it isn't anyhow close to what Axis did. It's something close to what USA did to thier people during great depression.

Also, the main differences is reasoning. Axis - were executing people because of their _race_. Stalin - was just a dictator, he was trying to keep power (and did it not for his own wealth, but for the country - that's was how he understood 'lesser evil' concept).

Every country has it's black pages. But in Birds of Prey gamers (like real soldiers of world war2) are not fighting for Stalin or against some of his opposers. Those days people were fighting for freedom, for survival - against evil. Not all of Germans were Nazis of course. Not even most of them. But all German soldiers were fighting for Nazi.

It doesn't mean that fighting for Axis airforce in any game is 100% unethical.
But on the other hand, fighting for Allies IS 100% ethical.

Don't diminish the Seaman, Airman and Soldier that had no choice but to engage in combat for the Axis.

50+ years later watching some toymaker making "ethical" judgments is abhorrent.

How about get back to fixing your "flawless" game which profits from the death and destruction of millions of people from 1937-1945. How is that for ethical?

[IamKFAM]

Dudes... while I am happy that you are getting to drag out some of the finer points you learned while getting your European History Masters degrees...

I don't think this line of commentary is going to aid in getting ANYTHING fixed.

How's about we stick to the game itself at let the 18,250 days of armchair quarterbacking go to another more appropriate venue?

[H Lecter]

Originally Posted by M3-SRT8

Oh, please. You're going to defend Stalin?

From 1931-1933 ALONE, about 3-5 million Ukranians starved to death from the forced Collectivization due to Stalin's "policies." He could have cared less.

Nevertheless he was good enough to be an ally of the US and Britain, wasn't he?

How do you plan to win this argument by hurting other people's national feelings? Anton is proud of his forefathers fighting against Nazi Germany and has every right to be. Spreading offense in this forum is not going to help.

[M3-SRT8]

Originally Posted by IamKFAM

Dudes... while I am happy that you are getting to drag out some of the finer points you learned while getting your European History Masters degrees...

I don't think this line of commentary is going to aid in getting ANYTHING fixed.

How's about we stick to the game itself at let the 18,250 days of armchair quarterbacking go to another more appropriate venue?

All I'm saying is, Anton's reason for excluding German aircraft from the players is bullshite, and I'm illustrating the reasons why it is BS.

It's a fine game. I'm going to BUY it, fer chrissake. He deserves a Job Well Done, from Me, and everybody else here.

LJB

[Yossarian]

Originally Posted by H Lecter

Nevertheless he was good enough to be an ally of the US and Britain, wasn't he?

How do you plan to win this argument by hurting other people's national feelings? Anton is proud of his forefathers fighting against Nazi Germany and has every right to be. Spreading offense in this forum is not going to help.

Agreed, even though our great ally 'Uncle Joe' was another Hitler that does not detract from the fact that Russia was invaded, millions of Russians died because of the Nazi's and they fought a Great Patriotic War and essentially won the war in Europe, something to be proud of.

[M3-SRT8]

Originally Posted by H Lecter

Nevertheless he was good enough to be an ally of the US and Britain, wasn't he?

How do you plan to win this argument by hurting other people's national feelings? Anton is proud of his forefathers fighting against Nazi Germany and has every right to be. Spreading offense in this forum is not going to help.

I'm not attemting to hurt anybody. NOTHING in History is Black & White, Good and Bad. Including our belated alliance with the USSR.

Hell, the United States rounded up and killed about 70,000 Phillipinos when they took it over from the Spanish after the Spanish-American War. In the Second World War, Daylight "Precision" Bombing by the US 5th and 8th Air Force killed Civilians in the Hundreds of Thousands. I'm not, as an American, walking the Earth in white saffron robes thinking I'm superior to all cultures. EVERY country has a dark past, and a dark present, and, undoubtedly, a dark future.

For THAT reason, excluding German Aircraft, for purely personal, or political reasons, is pure BS.

LJB