Share Your Real Pilot Stories

[Kamak86]

i do love those airports, nice stories too. I have an FAR/AIM question, im going to look but in case i cannot find it. I have an opporunity to fly with a company that does aeiral photographs and he said that i could log multiengine time in the 2nd seat on the dead legs back. Im under the understanding that you cannot log multi unless its with a flight instructor. Im going to go digging in the FAR/AIM to see if i can find anything.

[Whiskey Red]

Originally Posted by Kamak86

i do love those airports, nice stories too. I have an FAR/AIM question, im going to look but in case i cannot find it. I have an opporunity to fly with a company that does aeiral photographs and he said that i could log multiengine time in the 2nd seat on the dead legs back. Im under the understanding that you cannot log multi unless its with a flight instructor. Im going to go digging in the FAR/AIM to see if i can find anything.

You are correct. You cannot log multi time unless you are with a certificated flight instructor (or for any aircraft for which you do not hold the appropriate category, class, and type [if required] certificate). In addition, if the flight is under a part 135 or 121 operation (meaning it's a commercial flight for hire) you technically can't log time unless you fit the minimum hour and commercial certificate requirements for that operation (and that operator).

Not saying it doesn't happen, though.

[Kamak86]

What about second in command? or do you have to have the ratings reguardless

[Whiskey Red]

Originally Posted by Kamak86

What about second in command? or do you have to have the ratings reguardless

You do have to have the appropriate ratings. In addition, the aircraft must require two crew members in order for second in command time to be logged. In other words, if two pilots are flying a twin Cessna (say a 310) neither could log SIC because the aircraft does not require the second crewmember.

[redtiger02]

Originally Posted by Whiskey Red

You do have to have the appropriate ratings. In addition, the aircraft must require two crew members in order for second in command time to be logged. In other words, if two pilots are flying a twin Cessna (say a 310) neither could log SIC because the aircraft does not require the second crewmember.

OK, that's not entirely correct based on the latest FARs. If the 310 is operating for hire, as in photo work, the SIC can be logged because it requires a 2 man operating crew, you can log SIC but not PIC. SIC on a normal flight is at discrection. If you hold a multi rating and share the flying duties then it's between you and the PIC who logs what time in what role.

[Whiskey Red]

Originally Posted by redtiger02

OK, that's not entirely correct based on the latest FARs. If the 310 is operating for hire, as in photo work, the SIC can be logged because it requires a 2 man operating crew, you can log SIC but not PIC. SIC on a normal flight is at discrection. If you hold a multi rating and share the flying duties then it's between you and the PIC who logs what time in what role.

I agree with you partially. Technically part 61.55 does state that "a person may serve as a second in command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second in command pilot flight crewmember."

Keep in mind that the operations requirement states PILOT flight crewmember. Your photographer would not count as a required pilot flight crewmember because a non-pilot can perform those duties. The guy flying the airplane would log PIC time, not SIC time. The plane still only requires one pilot to fly. Keep in mind that if at any time the pilot allows you to be the "sole manipulator of the controls," then you are logging PIC time if you are qualified in that aircraft (61.51(e)(1)(i).

Also, it is not at the discretion of the two pilots if the plane does not require the second crewmember or the operation does not specifically call for a second in command pilot. If that were so, I could log second in command any time I flew in a Cessna 182 with my buddies. The plane must require the second crewmember, or, if the operations require the second pilot, they must be approved by the FAA.

I agree, the reg is long and poorly worded (like most of the FARs) but always stay on the conservative side. You might have a hard time convincing the feds that you needed to be logging SIC time in a C-310.

In addition, the definition of SIC pilot qualifications changes based on what part of the 14 CFRs you are operating under (part 121, 61, or part 135).

I really do not want to get into a debate over the FARs, however. My point is still the same in either case. He still must have at least a private pilot certificate (or commercial based on which part he is operating under), and be current and certified in the appropriate category and class (and type if a type rating is required).

Also, only one person at a time can log pic time unless one them is a current and qualified flight instructor actively giving instruction.

Also, Kamak86, I appologize for digressing too much from your original topic. Just yell at me if I start to go off .

[Kamak86]

Originally Posted by Whiskey Red

I agree with you partially. Technically part 61.55 does state that "a person may serve as a second in command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second in command pilot flight crewmember."

Keep in mind that the operations requirement states PILOT flight crewmember. Your photographer would not count as a required pilot flight crewmember because a non-pilot can perform those duties. The guy flying the airplane would log PIC time, not SIC time. The plane still only requires one pilot to fly.

Also, it is not at the discretion of the two pilots if the plane does not require the second crewmember or the operation does not specifically call for a second in command pilot. If that were so, I could log second in command any time I flew in a Cessna 182 with my buddies. The plane must require the second crewmember, or, if the operations require the second pilot, they must be approved by the FAA.

I agree, the reg is long and poorly worded (like most of the FARs) but always stay on the conservative side. You might have a hard time convincing the feds that you needed to be logging SIC time in a C-310.

In addition, the definition of SIC pilot qualifications changes based on what part of the 14 CFRs you are operating under (part 121, 61, or part 135).

I really do not want to get into a debate over the FARs, however. My point is still the same in either case. He still must have at least a private pilot certificate (or commercial based on which part he is operating under), and be current and certified in the appropriate category and class (and type if a type rating is required).

Ok, im just trying to get an idea of what i have to do, I have a private's. The plane is a C-404, with 1 pilot and 1 camera man. I would be hired on as a camera man for their company. Once the photos are taken they would land and refuel. Then the pilot and i would take off and fly the plane to the homebase as a dead leg. I might try and call my local FSDO and try and see what they say.

If the PIC was a CFI would that change anything on the dead legs?