Impossible, Mage - No unit loss.

[Quelthos]

At least up through level 20 or so damage spells are very much viable, but only if you use them in the right situations. If an army is bundled up in five stacks of large troops, geyser becomes a lot less effective than manipulative spells (for me these are slow, trap). But if an an army is in 8+ smaller stacks, it's great.

I have only faced a few stacks of black dragons to this point, none higher than 10, but my strategy against them has been to space out all but two of my units, so that the dragon will be enticed for double damage, and lay a trap in front of those units. Then during the turn I rearrange my troops again and lay down a second trap spell. Meanwhile my range/no retaliation non magic users lay into them.

Just as it is important to reshuffle your army in impossible modes, it's important to change up your spell tactics.

[Chase]

Originally Posted by Quelthos

At least up through level 20 or so damage spells are very much viable, but only if you use them in the right situations. If an army is bundled up in five stacks of large troops, geyser becomes a lot less effective than manipulative spells (for me these are slow, trap). But if an an army is in 8+ smaller stacks, it's great.

I have only faced a few stacks of black dragons to this point, none higher than 10, but my strategy against them has been to space out all but two of my units, so that the dragon will be enticed for double damage, and lay a trap in front of those units. Then during the turn I rearrange my troops again and lay down a second trap spell. Meanwhile my range/no retaliation non magic users lay into them.

Just as it is important to reshuffle your army in impossible modes, it's important to change up your spell tactics.

I maxed int and got close to 40 while having 200 mana (hi low def, att and leadership) and it let me use the geysir spam until level 24-25.


Update: Im not clearing out demonis with the help of my new wife Xiona and the poison dagger + the whip. I thought this would be a downgrade, but my lake fairies hit for 11000 now. So even tho I lost alot of int and mana, I now basically only use slow and mass magic shackels to win. Its highly viable vs anything except black dragons. And it seems like the strategy Ill use until the end.

(There is a red dragon army walking around here with no less then 52 red dragons in it. It hurts me and wants to say hi to everyone on the forum)

[Razorflame]

black dragons are a curse for no unit losses :>

[DGDobrev]

BTW, Chase, you should be aware of something. The army setup with fairies and such is good up until the battle with Bagum (the big orc that gets you to the turtle via his flying contraption). Bagum has a lot of hard-hitting lvl 4 Orc veterans, Shamans and other units which makes your army a bit improper for that fight. Although it's still manageable, it will take quite a lot of resurrecting afterwards.

The turtle head battle will be even harder because dragons eat fairies for breakfast... However, with the boost in damage you have (whip + dagger) you may be able to cut it, but the ressing will be long and arduous... But I guess that's why it's a challenge One ancient ent and you'll be set to start with the neat trick with multiple thorns and poison cloud lvl 1 you pointed out

[Elwin]

as for last battle, archer with dragon arrow for dragons, females attack some other his units

[Metathron]

Archer? I would never think of taking archers with me to battle several stacks of dragons that will crowd your archers. Strong melee troops for the final battle all the way!

[Vilk]

DGDobrev: I disagree, a mage is good at using non attacking spells. It's easy to use attack magic so I tried and felt that in most fights it's quite inefficient in comparison with fights organized around non attacking spells. For example, against long range think target, against dragons think traps, against non long range think traps, tank with extreme defense, mass haste, buffer, slow and weaken. A mage is just better to do that than a warrior. For sure attacking power is important but defense is important too for any class, that's why Archmage is that good. But with better spell support mage is quite better to take care of defense level.

Again here some points useful for such spells and a warrior won't have:

• Higher int make last non attacking spells longuer and that is a substantial plus a warrior won't have.
• Higher Magic level 1 and 2 provides you two spells in one round and that's too is a huge plus a warrior won't have.
• With spells that last shorter and and no double spells boost a warrior cannot support as well some tactics with Target use during all the fight.
• A fighter also cannot provide support buffer and traps during a fight as well and as long a mage can.
• Teleport can be huge when well used and is often a waste for a warrior that has better to do, not for a mage.
• With mage I use less long range and more close range and close range hit much harder. With mass haste you provide your troops better initiative and very good mobility allowing easilly to concentrate attacks on one troop that counter attack only once.
• Against fast dragons, double traps is quite better than one trap, and again double trap at second round can be sometimes quite good.
• A mage is also better to use Cursed Ghost because of his attacking spells to use in case of lost control. And Cursed Ghost can be a huge plus in many fights, a plus a warrior can't use as well.

Ok a warrior that hit quite stronger can be quite efficient in most of similar tactics but for a mage attacking spells are very often less efficient anyway and support these tactics better for the reason I listed above.

[DGDobrev]

Traps work against dragons one or two times, depending on your troop setup, unless you replay your battle like 5-6 times with different strats and see exactly where to put them in several turns in the proper cell the dragon occupies, because, let's face it - a trap itself doesn't do much damage. Besides, you are aware of the various resistances the dragons have.

Target+stoneskin is nice, but against a big army of 4-5 lvl units, even a strong tank will feel the big bang on his back and may die - afterwards the rest of your army will be minced meat in a few turns.

I do agree that a lot of debuffs will most certainly compensate for the lack of numbers, but you need to pump them like crazy and you still need to play with as many leadership items as you can get and leadership upgrades from lvl 2 in order to get as much units as possible.

As for the bullets you put up:
Higher int make last non attacking spells longer and that is a substantial plus a warrior won't have.
> the warrior compensates with numbers

Higher Magic level 1 and 2 provides you two spells in one round and that's too is a huge plus a warrior won't have.
> the warrior compensates that with high initiative, a lot of rage, which means 1 buffer spell + 1 high-level spirit ability every turn. That pretty much compensates for higher magic.

With spells that last shorter and and no double spells boost a warrior cannot support as well some tactics with Target use during all the fight.
> Target isn't paramount. If you find your tank being busted by numerous 1-4 lvl units and he dies before you can wear the enemy down enough to start the big ressing, you've pretty much lost the battle. Lvl 5 units will attack your weaker stacks straight away.

Teleport can be huge when well used and is often a waste for a warrior that has better to do, not for a mage.
> I totally agree, but once again strength in numbers + spirit abilities can compensate for that. Glot's armor works like the trap ability - it makes the enemy lose an attack. Ice thorns can slow enemy advancement. Soul drain can reduce an enemy stack way more than any mage spell. Time back saves you quite a bunch of resurrecting. AND you can alternate between those in every turn, which acts like a spellbook.

With mage I use less long range and more close range and close range hit much harder. With mass haste you provide your troops better initiative and very good mobility allowing easily to concentrate attacks on one troop that counter attack only once.
> The warrior does the same. Just Mass haste and you're ready to go.

Against fast dragons, double traps is quite better than one trap, and again double trap at second round can be sometimes quite good.
> Against fast (like the ones in the labyrinth and in the end game) dragons 1 trap + glot's armor does the same. The rest that works is Knights, Archdemons and Demons - good fire resistance and circle attack or furious trait.

A mage is also better to use Cursed Ghost because of his attacking spells to use in case of lost control. And Cursed Ghost can be a huge plus in many fights, a plus a warrior can't use as well.
> Undead make most of your other troops lose morale. A troop with high morale gets +40% attack and defense and +30% crit chance (and a warrior can easily afford going that far down the paladin tree and get the morale upgrades). Top that with a lot of atk and def attributes the warrior gets through items... Now that can easily outweigh most of the things a mage can do.

I don't want to sound biased or something, but in so many play-throughs of KBTL and KBAP, I can't shake the feeling that this game is just made for a warrior. 1 buff/debuff spell + 1 high level spirit ability every turn usually works a lot better than 2 buff/debuff spells + 1 low level spirit ability (since the mage can't afford the high level ones). I tried to analyze and 2 armageddons + 1 decent level black hole were worth about 1800 damage at most and that's the best a mage can show for.

The next thing is that a warrior has over 12k leadership more than a mage for every stack as well as 12+ points in the atk/def attributes. That strength in numbers can make even the last battle a matter of "who pulls out the bigger gun" (or the bigger army in our case). As a warrior, an army of Knights, Archdemons, Demons, Horsemen (all of those have fire resist and good stats) and a random unit of your liking (EDIT: Come to think of it, a good last unit will be the cerberus - 3 pronged attack and 50% fire resist) can beat the crap out of the dragons there. I can say that for a fact because I managed to overpower that nasty Dragon Haas even with the paladin on impossible. As a warrior with some more units, I would have had even easier time.

heck... maybe this is why I like the Paladin so much. It's probably the most challenging and most fun char to play - no higher magic, no huge amounts of rage. Only the careful planning, the good tactics and the cunning will win the day.

[Vilk]

The point isn't to compare to warrior but to mage with attack spell use. You should look at it in this way. It' not because a warrior will perform better that a mage with attack spells will perform better.

About some of the points you bring, and only from a KBTL point of view:

• Against dragon with high magic res your attack spells will be ridiculous.
• You clearly didn't used a lot target with mage otherwise you would know that a mage could use against a big army of long range target + stoneskin + magic shield all along a fight and some other spells at same time. And when used on proper target the damages are ridiculous.
• It's for example on Archmage or dragons against plenty magic long range, on Cursed Ghost on plenty poison/physical long range, on Knights or even Horsemen against anything. A warrior will have much pain to do the same because it won't has the mana and more important spell duration will be too short. But more important in many fights, it's much much more efficient than using attack spells.
• Against less long range you could use target on the proper target but with few protection and use your other spells for some other options.
• Glot armor is very very far to be the same than trap, it doesn't make lost any movement points nor any special attack when a trap can. For the random factor your are partially right but not fully, for example dragons are the easiest to predict when you set them a temptation trap.
• You can use Time Back with mage too, less often but still at right points.
• Cursed Ghost is obviously to use with the Paladin skill that disable any morale penalty because of them. And not only a warrior can learn this Paladin skill but a mage can too.
• Black Hole use plenty rage and isn't something for a mage. Double armaggedon is only for a rare use and will make you suffer significant lost. It's weird to compare a mage by using such weird tactic that are a good choice only rarely.
• 12k Leadership more isn't right, that's depend when in the game and what items used.

And I agree that warrior seems better but not that this imply that mage is better by using attack spells in imposible mode.

EDIT: There's also an important disadvantage to focus on attack spells in impossible mode with a mage. That means that you'll focus on magic order or/and magic chaos level 3 first when mage distortion level 3 asap is a huge advantage. In my current game I even get it before level 2 for chaos and order.

[Kjella]

Originally Posted by DGDobrev

I don't want to sound biased or something, but in so many play-throughs of KBTL and KBAP, I can't shake the feeling that this game is just made for a warrior. 1 buff/debuff spell + 1 high level spirit ability every turn usually works a lot better than 2 buff/debuff spells + 1 low level spirit ability (since the mage can't afford the high level ones). I tried to analyze and 2 armageddons + 1 decent level black hole were worth about 1800 damage at most and that's the best a mage can show for.

Huh? I do over 3500 dmg/spell from my fire rains (haven't got lvl 3 armageddon so can't compare, but should be even higher and I still got low int - 28 - for a mage) and can usually do a 30%/20 rage soul drain with reaper. My problem right now (lvl 24/impossible) is that I've come to a point where I'm getting toasted by:

a) Dragons with tons of fire/magic resistance
b) Demons with fire resistance
c) Karador on sheer numbers

The ugliest stack I've come across so far has been 33000 HP (dryads) and 20000+ HP dragon stacks. I run myself dry on mana (source of magic doesn't get you that far in my experience) and it all goes to shit. Too bad I stupidly spent my crystals since I got the arma scroll, with that I could probably at least get further taking some heavy losses.