Battle Of Britain: Storm Of War - Pilot's Lounge

Originally Posted by Feuerfalke

The whole board consists of chit-chat, as there is little news on the one hand and a lot of people who use this board primarily to vent and whine. The facts are already summed up nicely in the new ORR-Thread, but you won't heal people from complaining, demanding and claiming to be able to do it better than Oleg.

It's a pitty, fully agreed, but trust me: You cannot change them.

Even the fact that they turn away other customers or potential interested people by their flaming and complaining doesn't interest them. It's just egocentric whaaa-whaaa-whaaa, I want, I need, I demand, where is, when, you promised. Like 4 year old children. Barely believable that some must be over 18 years old!

As much as I support your point, Moreno, there have been numerous threads like that, all with the same result.

It's not the game, not Oleg, no financial crisis or technical problems, which are so damaging for Storm of War and the future of our hobby, it is this community.

Interesting comments Feuerfalke, can you explain in detail how exactly us 4 yr olds are are whining and complaining? I for one am only asking questions regarding posts made directly from 1C, i will give you a few examples, It was posted here that an SOW website should be completed by December 2008, i have asked questions regarding the status of that. It was also posted here in early February that an update would be coming soon in the next week or so. Again i have asked questions if the update is going to happen.
I have not dreamed these questions up i have asked because these statements were posted here as news. Maybe you should direct your disgust at those who originally posted and now have no answers.
Keep up the good work though who knows Oleg might even give you a free copy or mention you in the credits.


xxxx

[Bobb4]

Speaking as a four-year-old, Rise of Flight (ROF) have show everyone exactly how to interact with the community.
Despite heavy condemnation of their online login policy, they did not hide away, they faced their critics and moved forward.
They are now in closed beta with a scheduled May/June release.
While there is no way to compare the scope of SOW to that of ROF one can compare the dismal public relations excercise of SOW publishers/developers compared to the new kids on the block.
One should always remember once a successful engine is released, other developers who once may have been inclinde to use the SOW engine may change their mind.
A working engine is far more appealing than a theoretical abstract of what can be achieved when, if and how SOW is eventually released.
I will be spending my money of ROF when it hits the market, simply because their is nothing else new in the flight sim genre.
Make no mistake I will also rush to buy SOW when it is released.
I am closely following three projects and will purchase them all, they are HOI3, ROF and SOW. Of all the three, the most disappointing is SOW, not in features, function and wow factor, just the fact that they treat the community like...

[csThor]

Originally Posted by Bobb4

Speaking as a four-year-old, Rise of Flight (ROF) have show everyone exactly how to interact with the community.
Despite heavy condemnation of their online login policy, they did not hide away, they faced their critics and moved forward.

With all due respect, but ...

1.) Oleg already tried the road of communicating with the community. He has done it for years, but it didn't do him any good. He was flamed, belittled, accused of cultivating various bias, swamped with demands of small-minded "I want! Now! Gimme! Whine!" folks and ultimately people accused him of having no idea how to run his business. Why should he bother with this narrow-minded, greedy, moronic and impolite community? Why should he post updates when all he gets is a load of flak?

And secondly (IMO, of course):

2.) neoQB are not any better in regards to direct answers to direct questions. Their online-nonsense has caused people to ask "Why?" and all we got (repeatedly) was pussyfooting around the issue and evasive BS about "user value" or "RoF is a service". If they were so "communicative" how come they didn't have the bollocks to say "This is our anti-piracy approach" straight away?


And lastly let me ask all of you who demand a release date one question: Is your life so awful, so empty and are you such sorry creatures that you have to make a computer game the center of your life? The behavior of some here makes me think so ... *shakes head*

[Bobb4]

Originally Posted by csThor

And lastly let me ask all of you who demand a release date one question: Is your life so awful, so empty and are you such sorry creatures that you have to make a computer game the center of your life? The behavior of some here makes me think so ... *shakes head*

Actually no, I fly IL2, regularly for an online squadron, play empire total war (a really fun game dispite it's quirky ai), I have an active social life, I am married with two lovely children and very happy.
Because I choose to be critical of something does not make me social retarded or obsessed.
I enjoy the odd verbal battle on this forum which in some small way may achieve a desired result.
And my defense of ROF was not in their policy just in their community involvement.

[Skoshi Tiger]

For me, comming to the IL-2 forum is a bit like fishing.

I don't expect to actually find any new information about il2/Bob when I come here. But I thinks it's because of this, the excitement I get when I actually find something new is really big.

I am really looking forward to BoB being released, because of the good job Oleg and Co did with Il-2. Good things take time to develop and grow and I hope BoB doesn't get forced out the door before it's maker is ready to release it, just to make a quick buck.

So what if Rise of flight gets released first? (or any other sim/game for that matter) I'll more than likely have a look at it and if I like it more than IL-2 I probably be posting on a Rise of flight forum instead and pop in over here till BoB is released.

But in my opinion Oleg and the rest of his developers has earnt a good degree of respect for what they have already done and that leads to a certain amount of customer loyalty from me.

Cheers!

[csThor]

Quite frankly Bobb, being critical is not a bad thing. I am critical of several things regarding the BoB development (but this pertains to individual aspects or objects) and not the information policy. What I simply despise is the steady repetition of the same question for a release date again and again. First and foremost it's probably not known even to Oleg when the game will be done. And secondly behaving like a small kid in the back of the family car asking "Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?" isn't going to help, either. It just makes one look anything but adult. Why bother with a release date? It'll come out when it's done. It's not like the world is stopped until SoW comes out ...

And concerning the information policy. I have been following the Il-2 development ever since Oleg made his first steps into the spotlight a decade ago. Looking back at the turn of events I'd say development updates and Q&As were a major mistake, because - as I said in my first post - it simply created an unreal atmosphere of expectitions (which Maddox Games could never fulfill) and gave too many jerks a platform for their 5 minutes of Internet fame. Oleg was flamed, accused of bias, whined at, showered with ridiculous demands and even more ridiculous rumors and was all too often personally attacked ... and nothing can justify that behavior. I can fully understand why he is keeping his cards so close to his chest this time and I agree with him - no need to hold out your hand if you're getting your own words thrown back at you.

I have no problem with Oleg keeping his cards close to his chest if thats what you want to call it, I'm just chasing up on news posted on here which has come directly from 1C, If they make a post saying 'such and such will be done by December' then surely it is to be expected that people will ask for news on it. That is not flaming Oleg in any shape or form.
Personally i dont think anyone at 1c have any problems with what questions are being asked here, its certain over protective fans of Oleg that are stomping their feet and getting all upset. You all need to calm down no-ones getting hurt they are just questions. We could always start a new thread where no one asks any questions just in case you guys get all over emotional, stop being drama queens and let Oleg or 1C speak for themselves.

[csThor]

So what? You didn't sign a contract with Oleg Maddox stating that you will get an update in December, did you? I mean I just don't understand the fuss about it. It's such a non-issue really, that rehashing the topic again and again is just not worth the time one needs to type. This is what I do not get ...

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by csThor

With all due respect, but ...

1.) Oleg already tried the road of communicating with the community. He has done it for years, but it didn't do him any good. He was flamed, belittled, accused of cultivating various bias, swamped with demands of small-minded "I want! Now! Gimme! Whine!" folks and ultimately people accused him of having no idea how to run his business. Why should he bother with this narrow-minded, greedy, moronic and impolite community? Why should he post updates when all he gets is a load of flak? *

that is only partially true, and only giving that angle misrepresents the change in attitude that took place towards oleg in some of the bigger il2 forums over the years

first, yes oleg was active initially in il2 forums and that was an exception compared to other game creators. but a couple of years after the initial il2 release several il2/PF problems were not being addressed, and as more ww2 enthusiasts with reliable historical data became part of the il2 forum community, it gradually became more obvious that a one sided bias had crept in with some aircraft performances (the i-16 comparison with the me109 is a good example of this) and that various aircraft/munitions had some errors which were not being fixed or even acknowledged despite good evidence being available.

with olegs very high aim of making il2/BoB the most realistic ww2 aircraft sim it can be, he also needs to be more open about the data programmed into the game for aircraft and munition performances. most of us are way past the old excuse of "everything is programmed perfectly correct, its the pilot making the error not the plane/munition performance being wrong". if we have clear tables and graphs of the data being used for climb rate etc, then even if they are "wrong" compared to what we think they should be, we can decide how to fly a particular plane in certain situations and make the most of it. oleg thinks giving us that data would lead to more arguments, but it would resolve more important issues instead for his hard core fan base, and that will then reduce the wine factor from the lost teens that blow in with the wind on a regular basis because there would be more self regulation in the forums to control the whine factor..

it also turns out that on some of the issue where we repeatedly were told "trust me, trust me, it is perfect" this was not correct, a good example is the 50 cal belting where simply the wrong munitions were being used, this would have taken only a few minutes to identify and correct (it is now in one of the mod's). there are other glaring examples where we were given wrong information, and in the end with the files being hacked open it turns out many of our concerns were justified. as frustration mounted with some of those issues, and it turned out we had been given (deliberate ?) wrong information on repeated occasions, the tone in the forums gradually changed.

with some of the russian bias this can be partially explained by the mainly russian reference texts oleg has used for his sim, and yes after all it is a russian flightsim, but some of that data has been shown to be incorrect and lots of independent expert sources are now available to have a better overview of what is right and what was dated wartime propaganda. if oleg doesnt become more global in his perspective and data sources used, we will continue to have the exact same problem the next time around (get ready for the mig-sabre problem folks )

[csThor]

The problem, zapatista, is that for any data sheet on any possible topic you could find a contradicting set of data. In the end it would simply be a question of POV and/or a personal bias. I never understood the need to dissect the data base of a simulation as a whole, even though I agree with the question of being open to community input. However this input needs to be

a) done in a professional way (not the "You ain't no idea! You hate [insert nation here]!" way it was all too often done in the past)
b) contain plausible data with known origin (i.e. the famous british "620 kp/h for a Bf 109 G-6" test which claims this was achieved with a clean G-6 while the plane carried two gondola arms under its wings).

This is the greatest problem - the community is not a homogenous group, but a collection of various groups of interest, some of which would rather fight each other than get along. So how should Maddox Games be "open" for input when it would be misused for petty squabbling among board rivals (as it happened in the past)? It's easy to demand access to the basic data, but this also requires a certain level of maturity within the community and I am highly sceptical if this community could ever be this mature.