Ju-87G Stuka

[Furio]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

It's not that Soviet fighters were useless, it's that Rudel was amazingly good. There's one incident where went up against an ace Soviet pilot (probably Lev Shestakov) while flying a Stuka and won.

Amazing is not enough, “incredible” is more fitting word. Any Russian fighter had an enormous speed and manoeuvrability advantage over a Stuka, so big that no pilot’s ability on earth could balance it, if not by pure chance. If ever happened, this incident demonstrates just luck.

[RPS69]

Originally Posted by Furio

Amazing is not enough, “incredible” is more fitting word. Any Russian fighter had an enormous speed and manoeuvrability advantage over a Stuka, so big that no pilot’s ability on earth could balance it, if not by pure chance. If ever happened, this incident demonstrates just luck.

I don't share this. Low level flyers, with good maneuver capacity, were tough targets. Fast fighters, trained to hit and run, see those targets as a good opportunity to start a nice and long chat with the worms.

Many of this planes at slow speeds, got better maneuver capacity than the fighters themselves, and they were also better at low level handling.

A fighter pilot trained to dive and shoot as near as possible, will see a low level flying aircraft as a "not on the manual" procedure.
If they overshoot, they were most likely to end six feet under, without the need for a grave digger.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by RPS69

I don't share this. Low level flyers, with good maneuver capacity, were tough targets. Fast fighters, trained to hit and run, see those targets as a good opportunity to start a nice and long chat with the worms.

That's exactly what happened. Rudel was a master of his aircraft and was able to make sharp evasive maneuvers at close to ground level. His opponent either took a lucky shot from Rudel's rear gunner and/or stalled out with too little altitude to recover.

Rudel only knew that he'd won the fight when his rear gunner told him the Soviet plane had crashed, which tells you that he was utterly focused on defense.

By rights, Rudel should have been dead, but his opponent got greedy for the kill, got sucked into a low speed maneuver fight, and then screwed up (or got unlucky) doing it.

Smart tactics for the Soviet pilot would have been to get a few of his buddies together and do "Thatch weave" beam attacks by sections. Twisty, windy, slow speed evasive tricks only work well against one opponent. They don't work so well if you're bracketed by 2 or 4 fighters.

[Furio]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

That's exactly what happened. Rudel was a master of his aircraft and was able to make sharp evasive maneuvers at close to ground level. His opponent either took a lucky shot from Rudel's rear gunner and/or stalled out with too little altitude to recover.

Rudel only knew that he'd won the fight when his rear gunner told him the Soviet plane had crashed, which tells you that he was utterly focused on defense.

By rights, Rudel should have been dead, but his opponent got greedy for the kill, got sucked into a low speed maneuver fight, and then screwed up (or got unlucky) doing it.

Smart tactics for the Soviet pilot would have been to get a few of his buddies together and do "Thatch weave" beam attacks by sections. Twisty, windy, slow speed evasive tricks only work well against one opponent. They don't work so well if you're bracketed by 2 or 4 fighters.

Ju87D had a wing loading of 196 kg./m2. The Yak 9t (not the lighter of Russian fighters) had a wing loading of 176 kg/m2. Why the Yak should stall at higher speed than the Dora? Or how the Dora should manoeuver better at low altitude?
In any case, if not by luck and chance, a Stuka can win only if the fighter pilot is incompetent or makes a series of bad mistakes. History demonstrated that slow and lightly armed bombers were easily shot down, regardless their pilots and gunners ability. And Rudel's memories.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Furio

Ju87D had a wing loading of 196 kg./m2. The Yak 9t (not the lighter of Russian fighters) had a wing loading of 176 kg/m2. Why the Yak should stall at higher speed than the Dora? Or how the Dora should manoeuver better at low altitude?

I have no idea. Rudel didn't describe the incident in detail. He claims that the Russian pilot was either shot by his gunner or lost control due to the backwash of the Stuka's propeller. All we know is that Rudel and his gunner survived and the Russian pilot did not.

The incident is possibly historically accurate, since the Soviet ace Shestakov went missing in the same operational area where Rudel was operating. Beyond that, there's no real evidence.

But, I think that we're in agreement that the odds heavily favor a competently-flown fighter against a Stuka.

[Furio]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

I have no idea. Rudel didn't describe the incident in detail. He claims that the Russian pilot was either shot by his gunner or lost control due to the backwash of the Stuka's propeller. All we know is that Rudel and his gunner survived and the Russian pilot did not.

The incident is possibly historically accurate, since the Soviet ace Shestakov went missing in the same operational area where Rudel was operating. Beyond that, there's no real evidence.

But, I think that we're in agreement that the odds heavily favor a competently-flown fighter against a Stuka.

The point is: all we know is what Rudel told about this encounter. And his tale is very suspicious. He was flying a plane with much slower top speed, much lower manoeuvrability and probably higher stalling speed (depending on load, of course). Its only advantage was the presence of a gunner, and we should eventually applaud gunner’s marksmanship, but we know that most, if not all, light bombers had similar defensive armament, and usually suffered heavy to appalling losses, regardless their pilots ability.

Overall, Rudel’s memories defy all the rules of probability and his victory tally makes one wonder how Germany lost the war.

[Janosch]

I've always thought that Rudel was a very handsome man.

As a side note, the style of his writing is absolutely hilarious! He's so serious that it's funny. Also, the real bragging in his book is not the things he claims to have killed, but the things he claims to have said in various situations.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Furio

The point is: all we know is what Rudel told about this encounter.

Maybe Rudel's gunner was like the AI Ace gunners in IL2, with immunity to G-forces and laser-like accuracy and ranging ability!

Other than that, we can debate the technical merits of the planes involved all day, but I think that ultimately the outcome of the fight can be summed up by two fighter pilot maxims:

"I'd rather be lucky than good." (And, if nothing else, Rudel had the devil's own luck.)

"It's not the plane, it's the man in the plane."

Originally Posted by Furio

Overall, Rudel’s memories defy all the rules of probability and his victory tally makes one wonder how Germany lost the war.

Agreed. I think that Rudel's victory total against ground vehicles is probably (unintentionally) overstated, like the kill claims for just every other ground attack pilot.

His total of air-to-air kills is probably fairly accurately, since all his claims had to be verified by very strict Luftwaffe kill-claiming procedures. While there was still some overclaiming under this system, I think that the odds are that Rudel is legitimately an ace pilot (i.e., 5+ aerial kills).

His sortie total is probably also fairly accurate, since his pilot's logbook could easily be verified by other sources. Of all Rudel's achievements, this is probably his most amazing feat. You don't survive over 2,000 sorties as a ground attack pilot on the Eastern front without a remarkable combination of luck and skill.

Originally Posted by Furio

Overall, Rudel’s memories defy all the rules of probability and his victory tally makes one wonder how Germany lost the war.

That's one of the tremendously depressing things about modern warfare. When there are millions of men fighting, the actions of one man on the battlefield, no matter how heroic, seldom make a difference in the overall course of the war. Instead, impersonal factors like logistics, national economic output, demographics, and weather play more of a role.