FWs Durabillity

[gaunt1]

Originally Posted by majorfailure

you can make quite a mess of German planes

You can make a mess of german planes with just about everything. They are so weak. Test it against tougher planes.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by gaunt1

You can make a mess of german planes with just about everything. They are so weak. Test it against tougher planes.

I wouldn't call the German planes "weak." Most of them seem to be more or less right - but with odd inconsistencies.

What might be an issue is that the basic DM for many of them is OLD, in some cases dating back to the original IL2 Sturmovik game. There are probably a lot of simplifications and inconsistencies still lurking there, waiting to be bug stomped.

[RPS69]

Just find some time to spend testing .50's on lots of planes.

I used a B25 rear gunner, and each time placed a different plane at it's rear on the runaway.

Planes I tested that won't break a wing:

FW190 A&D
Bf110
P51
P47
P38
F4U1
F6F
F4F
F2A

Planes that will break it:

Bf109
A6M
Spitfire
Tempest
P40
P39
La5
Yak9

I also tested the other thread beginner theory about 190 no taking fire when hitting their engine with .50's.

190 Do take fire, but it is represented on the cabin.
All other airplanes will also take fire, but it will be showed on different places, not necessary on their engines.

So... it is not a 190 issue.

Now, if you hit the wing, even the AI at some point, on any of those planes, will lost control of it.
Also, 109's do break their wings with .50's, but doing so on a moving target it is much more difficult than when stationary. The amount of well placed and consecutive shots are difficult to achieve(as the P40 or spitfire)

Only the Zero it's much more fragile to the .50's. A well placed burst will break it easily.

If someone is interested, this is the test mission

[MAIN]
MAP SandsOfTime/load.ini
TIME 12.0
CloudType 0
CloudHeight 1000.0
player r0100
army 1
playerNum 0
[SEASON]
Year 1940
Month 6
Day 15
[WEATHER]
WindDirection 0.0
WindSpeed 0.0
Gust 0
Turbulence 0
[MDS]
MDS_Radar_SetRadarToAdvanceMode 0
MDS_Radar_RefreshInterval 0
MDS_Radar_DisableVectoring 0
MDS_Radar_EnableTowerCommunications 1
MDS_Radar_ShipsAsRadar 0
MDS_Radar_ShipRadar_MaxRange 100
MDS_Radar_ShipRadar_MinHeight 100
MDS_Radar_ShipRadar_MaxHeight 5000
MDS_Radar_ShipSmallRadar_MaxRange 25
MDS_Radar_ShipSmallRadar_MinHeight 0
MDS_Radar_ShipSmallRadar_MaxHeight 2000
MDS_Radar_ScoutsAsRadar 0
MDS_Radar_ScoutRadar_MaxRange 2
MDS_Radar_ScoutRadar_DeltaHeight 1500
MDS_Radar_HideUnpopulatedAirstripsFromMinimap 0
MDS_Radar_ScoutGroundObjects_Alpha 5
MDS_Radar_ScoutCompleteRecon 0
MDS_Misc_DisableAIRadioChatter 0
MDS_Misc_DespawnAIPlanesAfterLanding 1
MDS_Misc_HidePlayersCountOnHomeBase 0
MDS_Misc_BombsCat1_CratersVisibilityMultiplier 1.0
MDS_Misc_BombsCat2_CratersVisibilityMultiplier 1.0
MDS_Misc_BombsCat3_CratersVisibilityMultiplier 1.0
[RespawnTime]
Bigship 1800
Ship 1800
Aeroanchored 1800
Artillery 1800
Searchlight 1800
[Wing]
r0100
r0101
[r0100]
Planes 1
Skill 1
Class air.B_25J1
Fuel 100
weapons default
[r0100_Way]
TAKEOFF 14379.60 26740.23 0 0 &0
NORMFLY 13827.45 26741.52 500.00 300.00 &0
[r0101]
Planes 1
Skill 1
Class air.FW_190D9
Fuel 100
weapons default
[r0101_Way]
TAKEOFF 14379.60 26740.23 0 0 &0
NORMFLY 13836.59 26750.66 500.00 300.00 &0
[NStationary]
[Buildings]
[Bridge]
[House]

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by RPS69

Just find some time to spend testing .50's on lots of planes.

Brilliant! A very clever method of testing.

Originally Posted by RPS69

I used a B25 rear gunner, and each time placed a different plane at it's rear on the runaway.

B-25 rear guns are equal to those of most other US medium or heavy bombers - twin .50 calibers - so good choice.

Originally Posted by RPS69

Planes I tested that won't break a wing:

Good data. But, two minor complaints.

How many bullets does it take to break the wings of the planes whose wings will break?

Shooting at planes on the ground also means that its wings are under exactly 1 G of positive pressure for the entire period. Assuming that IL2 models it, that means that there's no way to test whether a wing will fail due to damage when subjected to G loads.

Further experiment idea: Try the same thing with the G4M "Betty" and see how well suspect planes fare against a 20 mm cannon. If you can't eventually break wings with a 20 mm cannon, that means there's a serious DM problem.

For the planes whose wings can't be broken off by .50 caliber fire, it seems odd that the P-40 and the Tempest are on the list. Both were regarded as being quite rugged.

Originally Posted by RPS69

I also tested the other thread beginner theory about 190 no taking fire when hitting their engine with .50's.

190 Do take fire, but it is represented on the cabin.

That might just represent a fuel tank fire, since the FW-190 is angled up when its on the ground, possibly allowing bullets to hit just below the engine so they pass through the fuel tank.

Originally Posted by RPS69

All other airplanes will also take fire, but it will be showed on different places, not necessary on their engines.

Again, is this due to actual engine fire, or due to hits to the fuel tanks?

Originally Posted by RPS69

Only the Zero it's much more fragile to the .50's. A well placed burst will break it easily.

This seems to be realistic. There are many reports of US pilots causing Zeroes, especially the A6M2 series, to break up in midair using just .50 caliber bullets. But, that might just be wing tanks exploding.

[RPS69]

Well, I didn`t count the bullets, but on planes that won't break their wings, you could keep firing at them for almost two minutes with unlimited ammo on, and they won't break. I just got bored holding the trigger.

All the others got a reasonable time to happen, and the Zero was specially fast.

Actually the Zero was the only one I could make it happen on a dogfight.

The others require an almost impossible sustained fire on them.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by RPS69

Well, I didn`t count the bullets, but on planes that won't break their wings, you could keep firing at them for almost two minutes with unlimited ammo on, and they won't break. I just got bored holding the trigger.

That's pretty good evidence!

Originally Posted by RPS69

The others require an almost impossible sustained fire on them.

That makes sense. You have to punch a whole lot of half inch wide (i.e., .50 caliber sized) holes into a vehicle to make it fall apart on its own.

[Pursuivant]

I would say that this picture is proof that it's currently impossible to start an engine fire in the FW-190A-4.

Using RPS69's test mission as a base, I changed the flyable plane to the G4M-11. From the rear gunner's position I blasted away at the FW-190A-4 parked behind me with a 20mm cannon at point blank range. Typically, just 10-15 seconds of fire was sufficient to "vaporize" the target.

All shots hit, all of them hit the engine, although shrapnel from explosions quickly killed the pilot and caused heavy damage textures to engine and fuselage. In all cases, the engine almost immediately stops working and starts to smoke slightly. But, in several different trials I never got an engine fire result.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachm...1&d=1441891628

Edit: Also true for all other variants of the FW-190A in the game. Interestingly, I found that after I cease fire for a sufficiently long time for the "arcade arrows" to disappear, the FW-190 vanishes as well. So, it's possible to vaporize the target plane without ever setting it on fire!