TBF Avenger and other planes

[Furio]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

I wondered about that as well. Possibly lack of development time. Possibly lack of understanding by a Russian development team about the political tensions underlying the Western Allies-Soviet alliance. Possibly a residual horror at the thought of such a bloody and prolonged conflict.

Also, not to get political, but a Western Allies-German military alliance vs. the USSR was probably a non-starter once there was undeniable evidence of The Holocaust. (But, then again, if IL2:1946 could include the Lerche, they could just as easily imagine a scenario where everyone agreed to forget the death camps, or where the Shoah never existed.)

As alternate history, a Western Allies-German alliance might have worked if the USSR had attacked Poland in 1939 (and that was a potential conflict Churchill imagined). The UK and France might have held their noses and allied with Germany in a grand Western European crusade against Bolshevism. But, that alternate history would require all sorts of early war planes we don't have.

A more easily created alternate history campaign could occur if the Nazis had been deposed in 1942 to 1944, resulting in a German Civil War. The USSR invades Eastern Germany to "keep order," with some German military units fighting alongside them. The US and UK then occupy Western Germany with other German military units fighting alongside them, and war breaks out in Central Germany roughly along the line of the Cold War "Iron Curtain."

Great gaming opportunities, but horrifying to contemplate as real life scenarios.

Looks like my previous post killed the debate! Perhaps I used too many numbers, perhaps the general tone sounds too pedantic (remember: this is not my language, and my control of subtleties like humour is relative), fact remains that I was left alone…
It’s a pity, because the thread was interesting, so I’m here trying a new approach. No more ponderous analysis about historical facts and technical detail. No more serious and boring references to reality, but just some dreaming thoughts about… A perfect sandbox Il2! My idea is simple, and almost certainly unfeasible: to create a generator of dynamic campaign generators.
Imagine a series of menus in which you choose:
Red, Blue (and Green, according to Pursuivant).
Alliances for Red and Blue (and Green).
Player nation.
Map, or maps, in order of appearance.
Year of start, year of end.
Planeset for each nation, and for each year.
Defined or undefined outcome (who will win the war).
Pilot career for each year, in such a way that player can start as fighter pilot and then switch to bomber, or vice-versa.
Difficulty level.
Experience of AI pilots (% of rookies, veterans, aces) for each nation and year.
Then, save your dynamic campaign.
Hit the fly button.

[sniperton]

Originally Posted by Furio

Looks like my previous post killed the debate!

Not quite, I did follow the discussion, but I had the impression that we were talking without an end and sometimes without proper responses, therefore I didn't respond either...

It's a game. It has to be playable to be called a game properly. If you recreate historical circumstances, sometimes it will be playable easily (white), sometimes hardly (grey), and sometimes not at all (black). Black does not make sense, like a late-war Japanese torpedo bomber campaign according to history. You either avoid it at all or brutally cheat history in order to make it playable. So simple.

As to grey, here come the many shades. Even with good survival chances, you'll have to hit the 'refly' button from time to time. How frequently, depends on your skills and on scenario design. There are many ways to improve your chances and your playing experience, even if you stick to history. This is what we call 'balancing': it's cheating in a historically legitimate way. On the tactical level, you only enter combat when you have the advantage, right? Now you can do the same on the strategic level too: even outnumbered forces can achieve local superiority, and you are at liberties at recreating those situations with preference.

Or think of the G.50. It has such a low speed that it is theroretically unable to intercept most contemporary allied planes, including the Blenheim -- unless it dives on it from a higher altitude. So assign the Fiats a higher patrolling altitude in your campaign, and you're basically done.

And this is exacly what makes your (our) dream of a supreme generator of campaigns impossible to be realized (apart from the technical hindrances): only human discretion can make history 'playable'.

[RPS69]

Put your efforts on doing a better interface to the SEOW engine, and play to games in one.
It is mainly intended to play online, but if you combine it with the DCG for a single player, it will be a child's dream.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Furio

Imagine a series of menus in which you choose:
Red, Blue (and Green, according to Pursuivant).

This option already exists for multiplayer, where you can have any number of teams. All that is needed is to transfer the code over to the QMB, FMB and campaign engines.

Note that I chose "green" as the third option because it corresponds to the color used for a third force on US military maps. (The US is blue, opposing forces are red.) Other countries do things differently.

Furio's idea is a good one, but to make IL2 "cross cultural" and truly a "sandbox sim" a better way for the menus to work might be:

1) Choose the number of forces
2) Choose the color of each force
3) Choose the nationality for each force - different forces can have the same nationality to simulate civil war scenarios. Alternate national insignia would be needed. You should also have the option of adding nations rather than choosing from the standard list.
4) Choose whether a particular force is allied, hostile or neutral with respect to every other force present.

Neutral = Will turn into an enemy if attacked, but won't attack otherwise.

For example,

1933 - Chinese Nationalists vs. Chinese Communists vs. Beiyang Army (a warlord's private army) vs. Japanese Army Air Force. 4 sides. All are hostile to each other. Colors chosen for each side are arbitrary.

1945 - US vs. Soviet vs. Luftwaffe - US = Blue, Soviet = Red, Luftwaffe = Black. US & Soviet are hostile to Luftwaffe and vice-versa. US and Soviet are Neutral.

Alternate 1946 - German Civil War. US + UK + France + Co-Belligerent Luftwaffe vs. Soviets + Polish People's Liberation Air Force + German People's Liberation Air Force with Hungarians and Romanians being neutral with respect to everyone else and to each other. So, 4 "sides" and 9 colors.

Obviously, for most scenarios it's still going to be "red vs. blue"

Originally Posted by Furio

Map, or maps, in order of appearance.
Year of start, year of end.
Planeset for each nation, and for each year.
Defined or undefined outcome (who will win the war).
Pilot career for each year, in such a way that player can start as fighter pilot and then switch to bomber, or vice-versa.
Difficulty level.
Experience of AI pilots (% of rookies, veterans, aces) for each nation and year.
Then, save your dynamic campaign.
Hit the fly button.

This part looks really good.

I'm wondering if it might work well as a stand alone project, similar to what Lowengrin did with his Dynamic Campaign Generator.

People could define campaign parameters - nationalities involved, maps, planesets, etc. and share them.

[sniperton]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

I'm wondering if it might work well as a stand alone project, similar to what Lowengrin did with his Dynamic Campaign Generator.

Sure it could work, the only question is who is able and willing to do it. Both DCG and DGEN-mod, as we have them now, are the result of many years of work.

[KG26_Alpha]

You could use the chat box at his website and ask if its possible to make the addition of swapping sides and other tweaks.


http://www.lowengrin.com/content.php?article.11

Or at the forum requests area

http://forum.jg1.org/forum/67-dcg-feature-requests/

[sniperton]

Originally Posted by KG26_Alpha

You could use the chat box at his website and ask if its possible to make the addition of swapping sides and other tweaks.

The question is not whether Paul is able to make such an addition. He is, provided you can offer him a job. The question is whether Il2 can handle a player swapping sides.

[majorfailure]

Originally Posted by sniperton

The question is not whether Paul is able to make such an addition. He is, provided you can offer him a job. The question is whether Il2 can handle a player swapping sides.

Sure hope it can be made to do just that. There is so much opportunity in betrayal - even the historical ones. Also players could make their own choices, and according to that the story continues.

Thinking a little further a really capable mission generator could use players results to generate different missions. And even good very old Wing Commander offered that - though its different for an all scripted missions game.

[ElAurens]

Za Tzarista.zip

I have put the mission files for my Za Tzarista! mission in a zip file. I hope this attachment works.

Just put the folders in Missions>Net>Dogfight and it should work. Not sure it will work without HSFX but give it a shot.

Apologies to the really good mission builders out there, but it's something that I can whip up without too much bother.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by sniperton

Sure it could work, the only question is who is able and willing to do it. Both DCG and DGEN-mod, as we have them now, are the result of many years of work.

Agreed. It's possible that a mod team might be interested. Modders have already done a lot to improve the stock UI with the "Forgotten Nations" pack for just about every nation that ever had an air force, plus a few fictional ones. The modded plane set also offers a lot more potential for 1930s and post WW2 battles.