|
|
|
|
#1
02-22-2009, 09:11 PM
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
 If one changes the reference, he can demonstrate whatever he wants, right ? Even that (15 cm : 4 cm)= (M2 : SAFAT) ... LOL. Regards, Insuber 
|
|
#2
02-23-2009, 03:45 AM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
the discussion at the moment here is about the importance of having correct historical munitions loadouts for all aircraft in il2/BoB, and that those munitions damage effects on aircraft surfaces are modeled correctly. imo the way to remove controversy and speculation, is for those values to be openly given, in the same ways we need accurate values for airspeed, climb rate, etc... Not providing that information leads to speculation of incorrect values being used, and that has now been proven to be the case for some aircraft/munitions by the people who have opened the code for il2.
|
|
#3
02-23-2009, 01:47 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
I'm hip with what your saying man, but with historically correct values for weapon power, I doubt that we would see anything like real world effect.
Although sophisticated for its time, the aircraft physics, systems and damage model in IL2 is simplified and abstracted (as they are in any sim, even the big space shuttle jobbies used by nasa, even if they are several orders of magnitude 'better' and more detailed than IL2! ). This requires tweeking of the values used, in our case, to represent the damage of the various weapons. I do not know what process they used to determine the values that they settled on, but I would hope they used a process where the results obtained in the sim (statistically) reflected what occured during the war. I know this approach lead to discussions like this and the process used to select these values will cause arguments, but I can't see any simple way around it. At the moment my average hit percentage is at or below that 4% value I talked about before and I'm having a hell of a time getting that extra 1%. At that point I'll go into this Zen like state, that will last until SoW gets released. (Or I get shot down in flames on hyperlobby again!) In my opinion, in 8 years time we will probably be having similar discussions about SoW. Oh and sorry about the 'Hip' remark I've been watching Life on Mars and I'm going through a 70's revival. Dig it Brother! Last edited by Skoshi Tiger; 02-23-2009 at 01:59 PM.
|
|
#4
02-23-2009, 07:03 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Wait! Wait!
Are you really defending the wrong data with a "learn to shot better"? It's like you buy a bicycle, at home you find out that it has only one wheel and the seller explains that you need to learn to ride it in that way. Of course Il2 is dead and where will be no changes.. no reason to whine. But Emil is rightly asking WHY this wrong data in a game who should be a realistic simulator. Looking at the overall data (FM and DM) with my years of experience I can say that the game is clearly biased toward the Red side. Of course there is inaccuracy on both the sides, but "usually" (ergo not always) these flaws are a disadvantage for the Blue and an advantage for the Red. It's like the old story of "the 190's acceleration is wrong" -> "learn to fly". Of course people learned to fly it (mostly because they were prevented from flying the late 109s withone of the latest patches), using tactics and learing to build a good SA. But the accelleration was still wrong (im not talking about data, but comparison between planes) and his performance was/are still worser than those of an A4 with the Stuka's prop. Anyway you can learn, you can make experience and at last you try to fight I16s flying a G50 and you want to lauch the monitor out of the window. If only the modders could solve these problems (but I know they decided to not doing it leaving all the original data, even if wrong: I have friend inside that community). I think I will buy SOW too even if the bias will remain the same... I only hate to find out again and again experts (flying time wise) Red pilots who accuse you of cowardy when they are flying a SpitIXLF and you are in your 190A8... I still have fun because I play in a virtual community.
__________________
 A whole generation of pilots learned to treasure the Spitfire for its delightful response to aerobatic manoeuvres and its handiness as a dogfighter. Iit is odd that they had continued to esteem these qualities over those of other fighters in spite of the fact that they were of only secondary importance tactically.Thus it is doubly ironic that the Spitfire’s reputation would habitually be established by reference to archaic, non-tactical criteria. Last edited by 6S.Manu; 02-23-2009 at 08:16 PM.
|
|
#5
02-23-2009, 10:33 PM
|
||||||
|
||||||
|
Quote:
Yes. This is as good as it's going to get, or go to one of the Modding site. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
|
#6
02-23-2009, 11:32 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
I still remember the early days of the original IL2 when one shot from the Mk 108 would turn any plane in the sim into confetti.
The cries of bias by both sides are so silly.
__________________
 Personally speaking, the P-40 could contend on an equal footing with all the types of Messerschmitts, almost to the end of 1943. ~Nikolay Gerasimovitch Golodnikov
|
|
#7
02-24-2009, 09:43 AM
|
||||||
|
||||||
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Anyway I'm aware of the engine problems (i've been a oleg supporter since the start, I've been a oleg doubter since the famous patch who porked the 109s and a conspiracy believer since the i16/G50 fight I did) Quote:
Quote:
The only thing I need to say is "Please leave SOW a realistic hystorical simulator, don't change hystory for marketing affair". I have 5 copy of this game at home... and I'm going follow him. I only wish that this time Blue players could play without handicaps because Red world needs to win...
__________________
A whole generation of pilots learned to treasure the Spitfire for its delightful response to aerobatic manoeuvres and its handiness as a dogfighter. Iit is odd that they had continued to esteem these qualities over those of other fighters in spite of the fact that they were of only secondary importance tactically.Thus it is doubly ironic that the Spitfire’s reputation would habitually be established by reference to archaic, non-tactical criteria. Last edited by 6S.Manu; 02-24-2009 at 10:22 AM.
|
|
#8
02-27-2009, 09:47 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
When I say lack of 'realism' I intend: - the lack of data coherence when comparing the effects of similar ammunition fired by different weapons in the game, which strangely enough yields sometimes very different results (DM is in cause here), - the lack of correspondence with historical accounts and guncam movies, even though this method is more prone to flaws and subjective interpretations. I brought the example of the 4 cm radius of damage of a type of 12.7 gun, versus the 15 cm radius of a different type of 12.7 gun. Is this logical or coherent ? IMHO it isn't, and the obvious results are a huge loss of 'realism' if you dogfight in a plane with the first type of gun. I have to go now, I need to practice so to improve my hit ratio by at least 50% ... hoping that it is enough  .Regards, Insuber Last edited by Insuber; 02-27-2009 at 09:51 PM.
|
|
#9
02-28-2009, 10:38 AM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
Bullet accelerates only when it is in the barrel of the gun, so barrel length directly effects muzzle velocity. Higher velocity allows the bullet to fly in less curved trajectory and do more damage (penetration). Guns with different length of barrel will have different effects on target and will have to be aimed differently, despite the same ammunition. Difference between guns increases even more when they are fired in bursts. The higher muzzle velocity is, the higher recoil will be and the more subsequent shots will be thrown away from aim point, so higher muzzle velocity (longer barrel) will result in larger spread when burst time (or shots count) increases. The last thing is RPM of the gun. It mostly depends on how strong are the materials from which the gun is made. Basically designers trade between high RPM and high muzzle velocity, so the gun will not be destroyed just by firing it. Higher RPM is desirable when firing from unstable platforms such as aircraft, because it decreases spread which occurs because of platform instability. However, high RPM coupled with high recoil can give very very high spread. So, to sum up: different guns with the same ammunition will fire differently.
|
 |
|
|
Hybrid Mode
