How to perform Lag Displacement Roll Attack?

[Janosch]

Originally Posted by MaxGunz

You roll to keep the target in sight

That is a key phrase!

Specific maneuver oriented thinking and presentation, it can be too confusing. I actually had to read and reread about this maneuver and compare it to high yo-yo. And there it was! The key phrases are "lift vector", "maintaining visual contact to your opponent" and "meow."

Instead of thinking about "rolling away", just level your wings before pulling up. Then just look into the direction of opponent, often simply 9 or 3 o'clock, and chances are that you see them the whole time. Of course, it's easy only if you have a huge energy advantage and if your opponent makes a textbook break turn and so on. But if you can maintain visual contact, you can see what the opponent does next and plan ahead.
If your opponent burns lots of energy in the break turn to avoid your attack, while you conserve your own energy, all the better!

The way I see it, this is all simply an application of a boom & zoom attack, since you can sometimes try to get a quick shot at an opponent who's starting a break turn before you pull up.

[Laurwin]

the way I understood it...

you are paving the way, for extra turning room, when you are slightly rolling AWAY from the enemy (what is this madness going away from enemy!?)

but you must simply do it, you must pave the way, for extra turning room (because at high speed, your turn radius will be shit)

You're above your own corner velocity when you're doing this kind of stuff (usually)

-I mean, in the ideal scenario, textbook case, this starts with the attacker performing b&z, on the defender's ass.

-Defender is able to see the attacker, "ooh there comes BUBBA - I'll have to turn into him because that's what Dicta Boelcke says to me"

... attacker has a cunning plan; doesn't waste energy ...

... but momentarily converts some of that velocity, into extra altitude (also this creates momentarily distance separation, between two aircraft - this procedure is creating the turning room required) ...

... but at the "exit ramp'" of barrel roll; cunning attacker converts extra altitude into huge velocity ...

... coming for defender's ass again ...



Why is this manouver sometimes better, than a normal high yoyo?

Does lag displacement roll, sometimes succeed where high yoyo fails? (or would fail)?

You do get very hard deflection shots sometimes with high yoyos, against break turns, NOT very easy shots

Why does lag displacement put you nicely at low angle-off, from bandit's 6 o clock (Im still trying to wrap my head around this part of the manouver, how can you defeat the defender's angles so well...)

Does high yoyo, simply RETAIN TOO MUCH energy? (for some situations?)

[MaxGunz]

This is why I say to start simple in cooperative training with small speed differences. You can learn things that let you go on to bigger speed differences.

edit-add: for one thing, when you learn by doing you don't get hung up over terms.

Remember that rising slows you down, descending speeds you up, any maneuver more than 2G wastes speed. Have patience, don't get suckered into losing your speed advantage over a quick solution that slows you down.

At huge speed differences you can't stay behind without breaking contact for many seconds at a time and as I stated before, you risk the vict.. errr, target getting enough energy to take some initiative on you.

Do the first things before trying to speculate on more advanced tactics.
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Host a coop with invulnerable planes, unlimited ammo and ARCADE=1 to show where shots hit. Get someone to fly drone circles (no dodging, this is for TRAINING) at reduced throttle and another to work out staying behind while moving on average a bit faster while getting the occasional shot in.
Until you can do that you simply won't see how to begin to handle more.

Remember to take turns being target and pursuit.

[Woke Up Dead]

"Why is this manouver sometimes better, than a normal high yoyo?
Does lag displacement roll, sometimes succeed where high yoyo fails? (or would fail)?"

I believe there are two reasons.

One, the high yo-yo is a tighter, more aggressive maneuver; the attacker stays closer to the defender and often has to shoot while diving form up high. It's not that hard to dodge a shot and force an overshoot from such an aggressive attack. The lag displacement roll on the other hand puts the attacker further back, on the defender's six or mid-high six and closing; more time for the attacker to set up a shot, more difficult for the defender to create a tough angle. For that reason, you should probably use the high yo-yo when your target is much faster than you; if you lag-roll against a 109 in your I-16, you probably won't catch him despite your initial energy advantage. If you're in a Yak or LaGG though, you probably will.

The second reason I suspect is that a lag displacement more confusing from the point of view of the defender. A high yo-yo is almost as clear in its intention as a hard break towards the defender's six, but in a lag-roll your attacker pulls up early (maybe he didn't see me?), rolls away (maybe he lost me or is distracted by one of my team-mates?), and additionally all those maneuvers are hard to track from inside the cockpit. In the confusion the defender just keeps flying straight.

[majorfailure]

The "roll away from the defender" part got me confused too - got me thinking to let them pass below your aircraft. I'm still not 100% sure I'm doing the textbook maneuvre, but as long as it works what I do, who cares about the textbook. Basically what you do is using your roll rate to change your planes heading - by pointing it roughly upwards, rolling and leveling out again.

[rollnloop]

I think this video explains it pretty well ?

[Janosch]

^ Ohhhhhhhh now I see! Brilliant video! The pilot starts the maneuver before the target passes his gunsight, and that's why rolling away from opponent's turn enables the unbroken visual contact. Things are different and perhaps less aerobatic if you start pulling up after the other guy passes your gunsight - that's usually when you try an initial snapshot with a plane that has lots of cannons. Then it's just a regular nearly vertical climb, roll and see-what-happens-next.

[Laurwin]

Originally Posted by Janosch

^ Ohhhhhhhh now I see! Brilliant video! The pilot starts the maneuver before the target passes his gunsight, and that's why rolling away from opponent's turn enables the unbroken visual contact. Things are different and perhaps less aerobatic if you start pulling up after the other guy passes your gunsight - that's usually when you try an initial snapshot with a plane that has lots of cannons. Then it's just a regular nearly vertical climb, roll and see-what-happens-next.

Those bi-planes and tri-planes sure do turn on a dime, though!

How much energy would you lose, if you simply tried to turn into the breaking bandit, and simply try the high deflection shot?

Would you lose more E, compared a well executed, lag displacement roll? Probably you would lose quite a bit energy, if you really had to pull lot of Gs, at high speed turn, and if you still missed the shot. Depends on the attacker's plane also, though.

High yoyo would retain more of your energy, also.

But I have to try this manouver sometime online. I will be going on one week vacation to Canary islands (Lanzarote), tomorrow on 21st December, so the earliest time I can play IL-2 again, is on the 29th December or something.

LOL I'll just have to contain my eagerness for battle for even longer time! Maybe play golf or tennis there. And check out the beach babes of course