Yak-9T - incredible firepower (or maybe incredible tank's lack of armor?)

[majorfailure]

Originally Posted by gaunt1

I dunno. That 140mm sounds unbelievable to me. If you check the link about modern ammunition, you can see that such performance was only possible with APFSDS munition (Bofors). Also, the much larger ZIS-2 AT gun was capable of penetrating 145mm armor @ 500m, with tungsten ammo.

Yes, it sounds "fishy" to me, too. But even if it were only 70mm, it should still be barely capable of penetrating the 30mm deck armour at 45°/300m.

Originally Posted by gaunt1

I read somewhere that the reason why the Gemans desperately tried to mount the PaK40 on aircraft was because the BK 3.7 was totally useless against IS-2 and ISU-152 tanks, both with 30mm top armor.

When attacking those tanks from the sides (nice big target, 90° makes shots very likely to acheive results) which would very likely work against T34s, the result would be disappointing. And even if attacked in a 45° dive from above, there would be the problem of ammo disintegrating/bouncing off and also ammo that gets through would lost a real lot of its energy and thus be less likley to do damage.

So a real world pilot firing 30 shots at IS-2, would achieve 6 hits, of these 3 disintegrate, 2 do no damage, and 1 kills an IS-2, while an IL-2 online pilot firing 30 shots at IS-2s gets 15 hits, and all of them kill their target.

Originally Posted by gaunt1

From russianammo.org:

From the same site:
"The AP shells were belt fed and could penetrate 40mm up to an angle of 45°;"
That would make the NS-37 capable of defeating the Tiger Is armor, but not the Tiger IIs armor, at least not regularly.

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

My point was that some types of 20 mm ammo could hypothetically penetrate the top armor of a PzKw or even a Tiger if fired at very close range at just the right angle. But, I think it's quite unlikely and would require a very aggressive, very skilled on-line pilot.

Pz3/4, can be done -with 20mm Hispano. Only needs a high risk approach, 45°+ dive -with lots of training possibly doable on a regular basis.

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

More likely, I think that the armor values for certain late war AFV are crocked, or IL2 overstates penetrating ability of 20mm guns vs. armor, or both.

Nah, I think they are fine. Try shooting up Panzer3/4 tanks with anything 20mm besides Hispanos, there is no fun in that -but maybe I'm not good enough as a pilot.

[RPS69]

Sorry, but IAm a bit confused here. Why do you keep talking about 20mm power when the airplane used bores a 37mm one?

The NS37 if I remeber it well.
I'am a bit surprised to know that it could carry so many 37mm ammo.

But if there is anything bad modeled here, was this canon recoil effects on the little yak.

The same thing applyes to the il2 3m with two 37mm non synchronyzed canons.
Only the first shot could be aimed, on the second shot the plane will be absolutely out of its mark.

[majorfailure]

Originally Posted by RPS69

Sorry, but IAm a bit confused here. Why do you keep talking about 20mm power when the airplane used bores a 37mm one?

The discussion got away from this particular case towards the question if there is a general flaw in IL-2s armour model (either projectiles penetrating deeper than they do IRL or AFVs having less capable armor than IRL).
IMHO there is none, and as an example i mentioned 20mm cannons, that do perform up to specs as far as i tested.

Originally Posted by RPS69

The NS37 if I remeber it well.
I'am a bit surprised to know that it could carry so many 37mm ammo.
But if there is anything bad modeled here, was this canon recoil effects on the little yak.

At least the recoil makes you have to adjust your aim after 1-2 shots, that seems okay to me.

Originally Posted by RPS69

The same thing applyes to the il2 3m with two 37mm non synchronyzed canons.
Only the first shot could be aimed, on the second shot the plane will be absolutely out of its mark.

But it does just that ingame, doesn't it?

[gaunt1]

Yaks have the most realistic FM amongst soviet planes, they are very well modeled. So I think recoil is OK, at least for the "T". Only the NS-45 should have stronger effect, but who cares about that prototype plane?

[RPS69]

Originally Posted by gaunt1

Yaks have the most realistic FM amongst soviet planes, they are very well modeled. So I think recoil is OK, at least for the "T". Only the NS-45 should have stronger effect, but who cares about that prototype plane?

The starter of this thread?

But it does just that ingame, doesn't it?

No, in game they are sinchronyzed.

[majorfailure]

Originally Posted by RPS69

No, in game they are sinchronyzed.

You are right about that. Could have sworn the Il-2-3M jumped around like a bucking bronco when firing its cannons. Ahh, maybe this was changed (accidentally?) when the asynchronous firing of .50 cals in the Corsair and others was fixed?

[RPS69]

Originally Posted by majorfailure

You are right about that. Could have sworn the Il-2-3M jumped around like a bucking bronco when firing its cannons. Ahh, maybe this was changed (accidentally?) when the asynchronous firing of .50 cals in the Corsair and others was fixed?

Nope. It was ever sinchronyzed.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by RPS69

Nope. It was ever sinchronyzed.

Are you talking about the Corsair or the IL-2?

Previous versions of the game had synchronized guns where you could mash the trigger and watch perfect streaks of 6 tracers coming out at exactly the same time from beginning to end of the belt. There was actually enough space in between that an aircraft could fly through it. They fixed that after a very long thread in Oleg's Ready Room forum.

As for the IL-2 Type 3M. The first shot is always synchronized but successive shots progressively get out of sync to the point where its easy to control the first shot with the tap of a finger but holding the trigger makes the aircraft jump around a lot.

[RPS69]

Originally Posted by IceFire

Are you talking about the Corsair or the IL-2?

The IL-2

Previous versions of the game had synchronized guns where you could mash the trigger and watch perfect streaks of 6 tracers coming out at exactly the same time from beginning to end of the belt. There was actually enough space in between that an aircraft could fly through it. They fixed that after a very long thread in Oleg's Ready Room forum.

The laser firing .50s, were at last adressed in a topic that started talking about tracer visibility at long range. But laser .50s were introduced after their first implementation in the game., On the start they weren't sinchronyzed at all. Bearcat have had a lot to do with the .50s becoming a 6 laser simultaneous shot. He didn't ask for that, he asked for less dispersion, but the six laser shots was what he received as a solution. Nevertheless, .50s attitude have nothing to do with IL-2 3M guns.

As for the IL-2 Type 3M. The first shot is always synchronized but successive shots progressively get out of sync to the point where its easy to control the first shot with the tap of a finger but holding the trigger makes the aircraft jump around a lot.

Are you sure of that? You make me check, just to see if something was changed lately. But no, you still can straffe a whole column with them without lossing aim. The funny thing, is that the 7.92, originally the green lasers, now have more dispersion than the 37mm, and also makes the plane shake a lot!

The big difference in between the Ju87G, and the IL2-3M, was that the firing was sinchronyzed. So, on the IL2-3M, you got 2 canons firing at different times. Originally it was developed as a TD weapon, but ended being an antishipping weapon, because it's accuracy was not good enough to hit a tiny tank.

Also the Ju87G canons absorb a lot of the recoil, the IL2-3m 37mm won't absrob much.

Over the last years we overruled the IL2-3M from every campaign we made because of this.

[majorfailure]

Originally Posted by IceFire

As for the IL-2 Type 3M. The first shot is always synchronized but successive shots progressively get out of sync to the point where its easy to control the first shot with the tap of a finger but holding the trigger makes the aircraft jump around a lot.

That was what i remembered, too.
BUT either my memory is wrong, or this has been changed - the last time I've flown IL2-3Ms is way back, maybe 2008ish. I first didn't believe RPS69, too. But i tried it ingame and you can now hold the trigger down and there is no serious asynchronous recoil - or there never was?