Yak-9T - incredible firepower (or maybe incredible tank's lack of armor?)

[majorfailure]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

The simple solution would be to just double or triple "panzer ratings" for those vehicles against aircraft guns.

I think that would be unfair and lead to bogus results like unkillable light tanks or APCs...

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

A better solution that would require a whole lot more work would be to provide hard targets such as ships and tanks with a "damage resistance" or "hardness" rating, where unless energy from a shot exceeded a certain threshold, there's no penetration.

I think that is what the game does? Even if it is just a simple comparison if the kinetic energy of a round is enought to penetrate the armor.

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

After that, you'd have some sort of "hit point" mechanism for generalized damage, with either more detailed modeling for "critical hits" to engine, drivetrain, ammo or crew, or just a fixed percentage chance for a critical hit of some sort.

A complex damage model would need lots of work, I'd think -and may not even be worth the effort. A hit point model would be okay, but it would have the disadvantage to completely elliminate the chance for a catastrophic hit. If it is doable, I'd like to have a random chance model. This could be weapons based, and applied to tank vs. tank, too. Just as an example -numbers are guesswork and would need adjustment:
A .50 cal round that penetrates has a 0.05 chance to completly obliterate the target, and additional 0.2 chance to do significant damage(target stops moving/shooting/both). The other 0.75 chance it would do nothing of significance.
A 75mm projectile that penetrates then could destroy the target in 0.75 cases, do significant damage in 0.2 cases and do nothing in 0.05 cases.

This adresses the every penetrating hit a kill issue and allows damaged vehicles. Disadvantage is that there is no differenciation between shots that barely penetrate and those that do easily if both projectiles are fired by the same weapon. Solution would be to base random chance tables on remaining energy after penetration.

[gaunt1]

I think it would be more or less simple to do it, there should be a difficulty option:
1, arcade mode: no change, everything stays as is now.
2, realistic mode:
7.62 could destroy unarmored vehicles only
12.7mm effective up to APCs. All tanks, including light ones invulnerable
20mm, same as 12.7, but small chance against light tanks.
23mm, effective up to light tanks, small chance against medium. Heavies invulnerable.
30mm, effective up to medium tanks, heavies still invulnerable.
37-45mm, effective up to medium, small chance against heavies.
75mm, kills everything easily.

[JtD]

Look guys, the way it is, if a projectile doesn't penetrate, it doesn't kill. You can spray all the 7.62 into even a lightly armoured tank, and nothing will happen.

[sniperton]

Originally Posted by JtD

Look guys, the way it is, if a projectile doesn't penetrate, it doesn't kill. You can spray all the 7.62 into even a lightly armoured tank, and nothing will happen.

Yep, but please teach the AI not to waste light ammo on armoured targets. I have lost many AI mates due to return fire when their bombs were gone and they pathetically continued their attack with LMGs...

[bladeracer]

Originally Posted by JtD

Look guys, the way it is, if a projectile doesn't penetrate, it doesn't kill. You can spray all the 7.62 into even a lightly armoured tank, and nothing will happen.

I disagree, decent non-penetrating hits can cause spalling of the inside surfaces of the armour.
7.62 is unlikely to "kill" a tank.

[Igo kyu]

Originally Posted by bladeracer

I disagree, decent non-penetrating hits can cause spalling of the inside surfaces of the armour.
7.62 is unlikely to "kill" a tank.

I disagree about spalling with 7.62mm on heavy tanks, it should do, as it apparently currently does, nothing.

[bladeracer]

Originally Posted by Igo kyu

I disagree about spalling with 7.62mm on heavy tanks, it should do, as it apparently currently does, nothing.

I didn't say that 7.62 would cause spalling.
But a projectile does not need to penetrate the armour to "kill" the tank.

[swiss]

Originally Posted by Igo kyu

I disagree about spalling with 7.62mm on heavy tanks, it should do, as it apparently currently does, nothing.

It does nothing.
Other than entertain the crew inside with rain-like sound.
(proven, a relative of mine was a panther driver)

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by swiss

It does nothing.
Other than entertain the crew inside with rain-like sound.
(proven, a relative of mine was a panther driver)

On most armored vehicles 7.62 mm or similar rounds does nothing, except for AP rounds against very light mild steel armor at close ranges. In a few cases, though, you might get spalling against slightly heavier armor, which might injure crewmen or damage very delicate components. Spalling is unlikely to do any damage to the drive train, engine block or gun, however.

Practically, shooting small caliber bullets at AFV does three things:

1) It allows you to aim your heavier guns. You shoot first with light caliber guns, observe where your bullets fall, then shoot with your heavier weapons - assuming they have roughly the same trajectory or you correct accordingly.

2) It forces AFV to remain "buttoned up" limiting the crew's visibility from inside the vehicle and preventing them from manning top-mounted AAA MG.

3) The rattle of bullets might "rattle" the crew. Inexperienced tank crews might retreat or maneuver defensively, on the assumption that all those bullets are just a precursor to something much worse. In some cases this is a valid assumption, since MG were sometimes used as ranging weapons for AT guns. This result could be built into a "mobility kill" option that makes tanks move defensively.

[JtD]

Originally Posted by bladeracer

I disagree, decent non-penetrating hits can cause spalling of the inside surfaces of the armour.
7.62 is unlikely to "kill" a tank.

I was referring to the game. But yes, even none penetrating hits can in theory kill in real life.