Dogfighting -does 4.11-4.12 patch address this?

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by X-Raptor

ok then all this aces m8 who state to be SO brave:

gaunt1, Derda508, IceFire, please post here a track 8vs8 spit/me109 average level whatever year and then show how brave you are. Is simple to say just theoretical WORDS about how to be an ace-player like you all are arguing to be.
I'm waiting..

I will if you do

[IceFire]

You want to know what... I'll bite.

Posted to my SkyDrive: http://sdrv.ms/1bvdY5p

First two are 8 Spitfire F.IX 1942 vs 8 Bf109G-2...everyone is a Veteran.

Third is 8 Spitfire LF.IXe (clipped) +25lb boost vs Bf109K-4...once again everyone is a Veteran.

The first two I take a bit of damage and still manage to score some kills. Spitfires are victorious and I get anywhere between 1.5 to 3 kills on those. With the LF.IXe I turned that into a 4 planes shot by this guy. Got a bit lucky with the one Bf109K-4 who missed me and then I shot him! The G-2 are really the more dangerous fighters... the K-4 are less agile and just don't do well in a stand up fight. The AI isn't good enough to really make the most of this aircraft. They are definitely better at the G-2 but this is largely the same in the online world. The Veterans you see there are what I'd call above average but fairly typical in skill level to what I see from veteran IL-2 players. Ace AI are like some of the top players I've seen.

I utilize my wingman when I can although once the fight gets started all bets are off. My poor wingmate did die in the second one... shot to oblivion by a 109G-2 while I was trying to close the gap.

Any questions?

EDIT: Oh... and I still want to see you do it. Or not.

[Derda508]

Nice vids and well flown, Ice

But I don´t think it will convince sombody who refuses to be convinced and does not even read what people are writing to him (which nicely supports the point I made about "believers"). In a previous post I openly admitted that I am a bad pilot. I get shot down all the time, I just don´t put the blame on the game or some sinister TD mastermind. I know it is because I am to lazy to do some proper training.
Most probably now you will be accused to cheat evn more than AI does ...

[gaunt1]

So, my own test (no track sorry)

8 Bf-109G6 early (Veteran) vs 8 La-5FN (Veteran), 2000m
I deliberately replaced the Spitfire with the La-5, because the soviet fighter is far more dangerous, especially at that altitude, and especially because it has unrealistic, overmodeled FM.

First, some facts:

- Bf-109G6 is ABSOLUTELY no match for a La-5FN, it has far worse flight characteristics in every imaginable aspects, at any altitude.
- Im not a good pilot, mediocre at best.
- I usually fly Yaks and Japanese planes, and sometimes P-51 or Spitfire. (besides bombers)
- I dont have much experience with the Bf-109 (because I hate it)

Result: I survived for about 4-5 minutes. During that time, I even managed one kill, but almost immediately, another Lavochkin (not the wingman of the downed one, he was from the second flight) quicky got in my back. I managed to hold him, primarily with barrel rolls, he exhausted all his ammo supply, while I got only a few hits, without noticeable damage. Unfortunately, a second La-5 shot me down after this. End result: 6-6, two planes returned to base from both flights.

Conclusion: While the chance of survival in the above setup is very low, and AI can cheat with its immunity to G, and with an overmodeled UFO aircraft (La-5FN), the myth that AI kills you with one salvo in a few seconds is BUSTED!

[Janosch]

I really like this! It's like scientific research! Good! Because back then, during the 40s, they didn't even have AI to test, even if they had the scientific theory. We now have it all, and the conclusions and practical applications of these little tests are limitless. A pity that .ntrk isn't a "valid file" on this forum, but who cares - as I understand, customized paintschemes are not saved inside the .ntrk file.

Normandy, 1500 hours: The die is cast! 8 RAF Spitfairy LF MkIXc 25lbs race towards 8 Luftwaffe Bf 109 K4s and vice versa. Altitude is set at 5000m, clouds at 2750m. Note that the Spits have 40% fuel, 109s have 60% fuel, but that the Spits have bigger tanks innit! Game version is stock 4.12.1m. I have a customized paintscheme and partially changed sounds for most but not all effects, engines and weapons.
The AI of every plane is set to Ace. Difficulty is full real except for player map icon, which is on. And standard loadouts for all!

I find that the spits are already higher than me before the fight starts. Cheaters. After shooting one suspiciously honest spit down, I dive for safety, because I did see an ugly lump of pixels above and behind me. Forget the science, hello deck. Two unknown planes seem to follow me for a while. I really don't want to find out what they are! They give up their chase eventually. My wheels touch the ground eventually. The mission lasted for about 9 minutes and a half.

Unbiased observations and conclusions after a quick reviewing of the track:
- Bf 109 K4 numbers 1(non-AI), 5, 7 and 8 survived, with #3 losing his engine and making a crash landing. The rest didn't make it.
- All spits are gone. Since the interrogation of the dead/mia Spitfairy AI pilots is impossible, cheating investigations are at a standstill.
- K4s didn't cheat in any way, and thus receive decorations for good sportsmanship. Their impressive accuracy with the Mk108 was because of training.
- K4 pilot #5, AI, is a flight leader, and had apparently the highest kill count.
- Identifying planes in the middle of a combat is harder for humans than the AI, unless something obvious like tracer colour reveals the enemy.
:3 <3 (^^

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by Janosch

I really like this! It's like scientific research! Good! Because back then, during the 40s, they didn't even have AI to test, even if they had the scientific theory. We now have it all, and the conclusions and practical applications of these little tests are limitless. A pity that .ntrk isn't a "valid file" on this forum, but who cares - as I understand, customized paintschemes are not saved inside the .ntrk file.

Normandy, 1500 hours: The die is cast! 8 RAF Spitfairy LF MkIXc 25lbs race towards 8 Luftwaffe Bf 109 K4s and vice versa. Altitude is set at 5000m, clouds at 2750m. Note that the Spits have 40% fuel, 109s have 60% fuel, but that the Spits have bigger tanks innit! Game version is stock 4.12.1m. I have a customized paintscheme and partially changed sounds for most but not all effects, engines and weapons.
The AI of every plane is set to Ace. Difficulty is full real except for player map icon, which is on. And standard loadouts for all!

I find that the spits are already higher than me before the fight starts. Cheaters. After shooting one suspiciously honest spit down, I dive for safety, because I did see an ugly lump of pixels above and behind me. Forget the science, hello deck. Two unknown planes seem to follow me for a while. I really don't want to find out what they are! They give up their chase eventually. My wheels touch the ground eventually. The mission lasted for about 9 minutes and a half.

Unbiased observations and conclusions after a quick reviewing of the track:
- Bf 109 K4 numbers 1(non-AI), 5, 7 and 8 survived, with #3 losing his engine and making a crash landing. The rest didn't make it.
- All spits are gone. Since the interrogation of the dead/mia Spitfairy AI pilots is impossible, cheating investigations are at a standstill.
- K4s didn't cheat in any way, and thus receive decorations for good sportsmanship. Their impressive accuracy with the Mk108 was because of training.
- K4 pilot #5, AI, is a flight leader, and had apparently the highest kill count.
- Identifying planes in the middle of a combat is harder for humans than the AI, unless something obvious like tracer colour reveals the enemy.
:3 <3 (^^

I love the combat report!

IDing planes is a way that the AI definitely cheats. They have to know or not know and its difficult to program them with a degree of uncertainty that a human player would have... also I imagine it would be very expensive on the CPU side of things to have that many routines running all the time.

[X-Raptor]

There is always someone who can be happy with this uber-cheat A.I. , especially fanatic players that not only play il2 1946 but also come here and aren't capable to do criticism. And they are the most part writing here obviously just to lick TD feets just to obtain others further present-paches: they remember me like an adult giving free sweet candits to children,.. and all of them don't mind if this sweet candies are outdated for istance.

I respect the opinon of everyone here about good or bad A.I. in the whole contest introduced by TD, but I can't approve people who won't admit that there are bad features about A.I. -and that are clear like water- just to not hurt daddy that is giving him "free sweets" .

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by Derda508

Nice vids and well flown, Ice

But I don´t think it will convince sombody who refuses to be convinced and does not even read what people are writing to him (which nicely supports the point I made about "believers"). In a previous post I openly admitted that I am a bad pilot. I get shot down all the time, I just don´t put the blame on the game or some sinister TD mastermind. I know it is because I am to lazy to do some proper training.
Most probably now you will be accused to cheat evn more than AI does ...

Thanks

No, it probably won't but I decided after my first post that... hey... lets just do this thing and record it. Me doing a 8 v 8 with various fighters is just a normal thing I like to do to keep my flying semi-sharp. I rarely have time to get in any serious time these days but last night I was wired from working late (totally had a second wind) so I did it anyways.

Plus I had fun.

[X-Raptor]

Originally Posted by IceFire

You want to know what... I'll bite.

Posted to my SkyDrive: http://sdrv.ms/1bvdY5p

First two are 8 Spitfire F.IX 1942 vs 8 Bf109G-2...everyone is a Veteran.

Third is 8 Spitfire LF.IXe (clipped) +25lb boost vs Bf109K-4...once again everyone is a Veteran.

The first two I take a bit of damage and still manage to score some kills. Spitfires are victorious and I get anywhere between 1.5 to 3 kills on those. With the LF.IXe I turned that into a 4 planes shot by this guy. Got a bit lucky with the one Bf109K-4 who missed me and then I shot him! The G-2 are really the more dangerous fighters... the K-4 are less agile and just don't do well in a stand up fight. The AI isn't good enough to really make the most of this aircraft. They are definitely better at the G-2 but this is largely the same in the online world. The Veterans you see there are what I'd call above average but fairly typical in skill level to what I see from veteran IL-2 players. Ace AI are like some of the top players I've seen.

I utilize my wingman when I can although once the fight gets started all bets are off. My poor wingmate did die in the second one... shot to oblivion by a 109G-2 while I was trying to close the gap.

Any questions?

EDIT: Oh... and I still want to see you do it. Or not.

ok m8, you then are an ACE player..congrats..probably you have the lucy to stay many hours of day with your joystick in the hands and you can manage to win even with all those cheats made by uber A.I. created by TD.
But this not solve the matter that people like you are rare, and general average player folks (like me..) continue to be frustrate to see this UBER- CHEAT A.I. (and more and more after every DT paches..). regards.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by X-Raptor

ok m8, you then are an ACE player..congrats..probably you have the lucy to stay many hours of day with your joystick in the hands and you can manage to win even with all those cheats made by uber A.I. created by TD.
But this not solve the matter that people like you are rare, and general average player folks (like me..) continue to be frustrate to see this UBER- CHEAT A.I. (and more and more after every DT paches..). regards.

You know at this point I feel like saying "awwwwww" but I won't.

I'm not an Ace player. I can point you towards some ace players but they are not me. I'm not bad and I have experience which does count but I would only consider myself well rounded and with some degree of experience. I work full time (sometimes more than full time), own a house, and keep a very busy social schedule. Time for IL-2 is pretty limited these days

If you are getting shot down by veteran piloted aircraft in ever battle then its because of one thing: You. That's not to say that you can't improve and do better. Because you can and you will if you practice a bit. Sure it takes time and its a great hobby when you get downtime.

As far as the AI is concerned... the AI veterancy levels are great for both players and for mission builders. When I build campaigns my philosophy is this: Rookie and Normal are your typical pilots with minimal or average amounts of combat experience and typical of your average player. Veteran is what it says... an experienced combat veteran. Ace AI is a gifted pilot... the equivalent of Galland, Kozhedub, Gabreski, Beurling, etc.

The AI is not perfect and to some degree it does cheat because its AI and not a human player. But not in the way that you've stated and more importantly its not impossible to play against.

If you are an average pilot then you should set your QMB up with rookie and normal AI pilots. A veteran pilot should be a challenge if you're still getting started and learning the ropes. And its good that there are challenges because its good to raise the bar and be challenged. Only then can you improve.

If you find the AI pilots to be an issue then I encourage you to spend some time online. You'll see performances that exceed anything that the AI can do.

Also... since you said we should ante up and show you some tracks of how we were doing it. Lets see yours. We'll either see the AI cheating or we might be able to help you improve your technique... if that's what you're interested in.