I realize that the P-51 CoG was moved but,

[MaxGunz]

I thought the D's were the longer range model and there might be a way to get a P-51 closer to combat condition in game. Is it just the bubble top that's different?

Zeno's has loaded some videos up on Youtube including an intro to the P-51 on handling and characteristics. It is supposed to keep alt without trim change for some range of speed changes which is a wing and tail balancing act. And before that tidbit came up there was mention of the Merlin making the plane a bit nose-heavy compared to the original Mustang. So just -maybe- a version with empty fuse tank will be less trim intensive.

[horseback]

Originally Posted by MaxGunz

I thought the D's were the longer range model and there might be a way to get a P-51 closer to combat condition in game. Is it just the bubble top that's different?

Zeno's has loaded some videos up on Youtube including an intro to the P-51 on handling and characteristics. It is supposed to keep alt without trim change for some range of speed changes which is a wing and tail balancing act. And before that tidbit came up there was mention of the Merlin making the plane a bit nose-heavy compared to the original Mustang. So just -maybe- a version with empty fuse tank will be less trim intensive.

All Mustangs were considered long range fighters in very close to the the same class as the P-38 on internal fuel; a couple of RAF Mustang Is flew the first fighter sorties over German territory in late '42 or early '43 (possibly with drop tanks, I'm not sure--AFAIK, the Mustang I & Ia lacked that capability, but the RAF was always experimenting, often without consulting the manufacturer).

The Merlin Mustangs were similarly inherently long legged, particularly with the introduction of the droptank capability, but they were just short of an escort to Berlin capability (assuming at least 15 minutes of combat), and some clever fellow noted that since the newer radios didn't take up as much space as before, there was room for an extra tank behind the pilot with another 40% of the original capacity, which would easily put the Pony over the top for that requirement.

The first P-51Bs were reaching Britain in September of 1943, but not in sufficient numbers to equip a full group, satisfy the 8th Air Force's in-house experts that the things were safe to fly those kinds of distances at those altitudes, and familiarize the new group(s) slated to fly them right away. Combat operations with the P-51B didn't begin in earnest until early December of '43, and the 352nd FG started ops without the fuselage tanks (as did the RAF squadrons receiving the Mustang III at about the same time).

While all that was happening, North American was installing the fuselage tanks and flying a test batch of 'improved' aircraft to determine if it could be done without screwing up the airplane's combat capability. Once that was done, they had to satisfy the USAAF that they had done so while at the same time trying to figure out the best way to install them both on the production lines and create retrofit kits that could be practically applied to aircraft already deployed in England. As I recall, the second or third production blocks of the razorback Merlin Mustangs came 'stock' with the fuselage tanks and were starting to arrive by January '44 (although they still only had the original eight track tape players).

The first retrofit kits probably were reaching depots in Britain by December of '43, but the first couple of groups were already committed to operations, so the retrofits to their aircraft were likely done one flight or squadron at a time and in part by replacement of combat damaged or aircraft lost to all causes. 8th AF Mustangs were apparently fully converted to the fuselage tanks by March 1944, since the first daylight bombing attacks on the Berlin area took place in the first week of that month--about eight weeks before the first bubbletop models were issued.

cheers

horseback

[MaxGunz]

Was F-15 or F-16 the first US fighter with cup holder(s)? (in response to the 8-track note)

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by MaxGunz

Was F-15 or F-16 the first US fighter with cup holder(s)? (in response to the 8-track note)

I don't know. But due to its enclosed cockpit the P-35 was the first U.S. fighter that allowed you to hang fuzzy dice from the rearview mirror.

[horseback]

That's a bit controversial; the F-111A has made a claim, but most experts disqualify it on the basis that it was only a mud-mover, and therefore not a real fighter. Further, the Australians got their noses out of joint when their version of the Aardvark came with cupholders too small for a can of Fosters'. Robert MacNamera has been persona non grata Down Under ever since...

F-16s never came with cup holders as original equipment; due to the inclined pilot's seats, aircrew were issued sippy cups to prevent spilling.

cheers

horseback

[rollnloop]

Current P51 FM is very close to what pilot accounts like Bud Anderson memoirs read. It is nowhere like a P51 with full aft fuel tank, or you'd have to PUSH the stick while in a turn so the plane doesn't tilt itself beyond control. If you find it difficult to handle, you can either train (it doesn't require much time) or lower your joystick response (doesn't take more time). Just leave the FM alone, pretty please.

BTW, if you can still find it, UF josse made a mod with moving CG, and flying it with full tank was really a challenge until it started to empty. Compatibility was 4.09 IIRC.

[Woke Up Dead]

Originally Posted by rollnloop

Current P51 FM is very close to what pilot accounts like Bud Anderson memoirs read. It is nowhere like a P51 with full aft fuel tank, or you'd have to PUSH the stick while in a turn so the plane doesn't tilt itself beyond control. If you find it difficult to handle, you can either train (it doesn't require much time) or lower your joystick response (doesn't take more time). Just leave the FM alone, pretty please.

I agree with this, though I admit I know nothing about how the real life Mustangs flew.

What exactly is wrong with the way the P-51 flies? It needs a lot of rudder and elevator trim adjustments, but no more than a lot of American planes or Yaks or Spits in the game. It stalls violently and somewhat unexpectedly, but so do P-40s, a lot of USN planes, I-16's, Hurricanes, Tempests. It shakes when firing, but again, it's not the worst plane for this. And unlike those other planes, it's pretty much untouchable when flown well. The Mustang III can even turn-fight with Bf-109s from 1943 or later.

When I get into a groove in a P-51 online, or when I see an even better pilot in that plane on the opposing team, I wonder where the complaining about the FM is coming from. So seriously, without snark or sarcasm; what would you like to be able to do in the P-51 that you can't now?

[mazex]

Originally Posted by MaxGunz

Was F-15 or F-16 the first US fighter with cup holder(s)? (in response to the 8-track note)

Don't know - but I have read that the P-51:s that the Swedish airforce bought in 1945 had ash trays installed... In the land of political correctness (and in this case common sense sitting on tons of fuel (especially with the fuselage tank )) they where removed immediately

Maybe this is already known facts? Did other allied fighters have ash trays?

[DD_crash]

Corsair??

[horseback]

Originally Posted by mazex

Don't know - but I have read that the P-51:s that the Swedish airforce bought in 1945 had ash trays installed... In the land of political correctness (and in this case common sense sitting on tons of fuel (especially with the fuselage tank )) they where removed immediately

Maybe this is already known facts? Did other allied fighters have ash trays?

Wouldn't surprise me a bit if that story is apocryphal (i.e., BS in the entertaining sense, or simply a rumor that grew with the telling). On the other hand, it also wouldn't surprise me if some American pilots had their crew chiefs install an ash tray for them, or put one in themselves. It is quite possible that since Sweden's Mustangs were taken from US stocks already in Europe, one or more of them may have had 'non-regulation' ashtrays. Most Americans smoked back in those days, and fighter pilots were no exception. When you're addicted to nicotine, a six or seven hour mission would be long time to go without a smoke, particularly because of the stress before and after combat.

CDR David McCampbell reported that during his epic 9 kill sortie over Leyte Gulf, he took "a few" cigarette breaks while waiting for an enemy aircraft to make a break from their defensive circle. Since he was the Commander of the ESSEX Air Group, I would guess that at least his personal Hellcat had an ashtray installed. I doubt that he was the only one.

cheers

horseback