Mitsubishi Stuka and Thunderbolt

[majorfailure]

Originally Posted by Art-J

Stukas being vulnerable at last? Gotta check this out. I haven't done any missions against these for a loooong time, because few patches ago they could absorb ridiculous amounts of bullets (especially .30 caliber), which made emulating early BoB scenarios quite a bit difficult. If they're less "panzer" now, I'm all for it!

We are talking about Ju-87, right? They are extremely vulnerable to small caliber rounds, if you hit the wing tanks. HurricaneIIb lights them like candles. Their only vice is their rear gunner, he can shoot quite far below.

Originally Posted by Art-J

Re: La-5/7 and Fw-190 - they are amongst the oldest models, dating back to the very first version of the game and their simplified DMs were never really completely upgraded, hence the engines and fuselages made of reinforced concrete . We just have to live with it and hope that TD will consider putting these on "to do" list (including aforementioned R-2800).

I do not know if this is true, but for the Fw190 I can say, their damage models seem okay to me. If you park behind and pump .50 cal or smaller into them they absorb lots of damage - but they were considered tough IRL(and had armor plating that protected pilot and fuel tank from .50cal from directly behind).
Hit critical areas - engine, pilot, wingroots with concentrated bursts, or when possible shoot the fuel tank from behind with 20mm or larger, and they will go down. I've had Fw190 going down with single bursts, and I have had them absorb lots of ammo - but then mostly due to my less than stellar targeting. Sitting in an Fw190 I have been killed by single .50cal bullets (pilot or engine) -happens rarely, but does. And I have taken countless hits and still more or less flew away -also rare.

[Mustang]

FW 190
x 4 MG 151. 20
X2 MG 131

If you have bad luck and get one burst of one seconds of fire from fw.
You will get 12 bullets x 4 = 48 hits of HE 20mm
And 15 x 2 = 30 hits of 13 mm - HE - AP ?

Maybe you can lost your tail section in a P47 for the amount of HE.

Many aircraft have fuel tanks in the wings but are ignored.., others have ammunition.
What I wonder is because some fuel tanks catch fire and others no.

TD is doing a good job... But always will be a endless Work.

Now TD is fixing many things.

I only can tell, THANKS!

Edited: some numbers

[JtD]

Actually, the only single shot kill to the R-2800 is hitting the ignition, on top of the hub in the P-47. No armour or backup system there in real life, a clear one shot kill.

[horseback]

Originally Posted by JtD

Actually, the only single shot kill to the R-2800 is hitting the ignition, on top of the hub in the P-47. No armour or backup system there in real life, a clear one shot kill.

How big is the 'ignition' on the R-2800? What percentage of area inside the cowl (viewed from head-on) does it represent? How often does the average two or three shot burst of 7mm into the cowl from a rear gunner kill the engine?

If the answer to the last question is is a greater number than the answers to the the first questions, something is very wrong. Hitting one of the ignition coils(?) on top of the crankcase from over 200m is a classic Golden BB, and should be vanishingly rare.

It is not vanishingly rare.

cheers

horseback

[The_WOZ]

As most planes in the game, both the P-47 and the Fw-190 have complete internal collision boxes modelled. This is, individual models for each internal system with a rough shape and size.

This means that if the ignition system is shot out, is because a bullet indeed hit that small part of the engine.

Now, there's another group of planes, which includes the Stuka and the P-39/P-63, that do not have any internal collision boxes at all.
In these planes the damage to internal systems is determined procedurally every time a bullet hits the airframe.
For the Stuka there's around a 60% chance for a incendiary bullet shot to the wing root to set the wing tanks on fire.

I have once hit a P-47 with 80 20mm rounds (from a J2M) and it flew away. Other times a few hits from a 109 on the wing root will bring it down.
Even on planes with complete damage models there's some randomness thrown in to make things more interesting and realistic.
For example, back to the ignition system in the P-47, a bullet may not have enough force to knock out a magneto, but it may still sever some wiring and have the same effect.

In the case of the F6F, as a Ju88 and Betty pilot I can attest to the engine toughness to both MG and cannon fire.

[ElAurens]

I've had more "one shot" instant stops in the P 47 than any other plane in the sim. Second place goes to the glass jawed P 40.

You could probably bring the IL2 P 47 down easily with a side arm, if they were available in the sim.

[horseback]

As most planes in the game, both the P-47 and the Fw-190 have complete internal collision boxes modelled. This is, individual models for each internal system with a rough shape and size.

This means that if the ignition system is shot out, is because a bullet indeed hit that small part of the engine.

Which tells me that the shot is impossibly accurate, or that the 'collision boxes' are on the especially generous side for the P-47's (and the Hellcat's and the Corsair's) engine compartment.

As for random numbers, only God can generate a truly random number; there is always a prejudice built into any system built by men, and it is pretty obvious here.

When I run down and across the rear of a Betty at a 45 degree angle after a high 7 o'clock diving gunnery pass, and the rear gunner takes out my engine 3 out of 5 times in a QMB (my speed was in excess of 370 kts every time), that is not random.

When I approach from a level 4 o'clock, and get my engine knocked out from 450 meters as often as once in five tries, that is not random.

It is wrong.

cheers

horseback

[Woke Up Dead]

Originally Posted by The_WOZ

Now, there's another group of planes, which includes the Stuka and the P-39/P-63, that do not have any internal collision boxes at all.
In these planes the damage to internal systems is determined procedurally every time a bullet hits the airframe.

Hi WOZ, do you happen to know the full list of these planes with the simplified damage model?

Someone here once posted an image of these damage boxes in a Zero, and the lack thereof in the P-39 (maybe it was you), but I couldn't track down the list of planes or the tool used to illustrate the damage boxes.

Thanks,

WokeUpDead

[ElAurens]

Long ago at the old UBI forum, Oleg did indeed say that single flak guns are modeled as a battery, to help with FPS issues in the sim.

[The_WOZ]

Originally Posted by Woke Up Dead

Hi WOZ, do you happen to know the full list of these planes with the simplified damage model?

Someone here once posted an image of these damage boxes in a Zero, and the lack thereof in the P-39 (maybe it was you), but I couldn't track down the list of planes or the tool used to illustrate the damage boxes.

Thanks,

WokeUpDead

Yes it was me who posted that image on the SOV forum, I found about the missing internal damage models while investigating how to make new planes for IL-2. The tools are easy to find at the modding sites such as SAS.

I just did a quick search in a easier way now and here's a list of planes without proper internal damage models (or at least not used in the code):

C-47
Fi-156
Fw-189A2
G-11
IAR-80/81 series
Ju-52 series
Ju-87 series
Ju-88 Mistel
L2D
Li-2
MBR-2
P-39/P-400/P-63 series
Tu-2
U-2