Just curious about the P-51 FM

[majorfailure]

Originally Posted by rakinroll

I wonder if those pilots whose talk at 10:40 and 39:00 were able to understand the law of conservation of energy in physics.

The pilots may not be the problem - they percieved what they tell the way they tell (and that can be pretty inaccurate) - and though snap-stalling your plane would count as a desperate measure in my book, they got away. What this show makes from these pilots testimonies -verbally and visually - that's the real problem. Every 08/15 maneuvre is "daredevil death-defiyng whatnot" and every maneuvre the enemy does is a mistake or worse. And the visual representation is even worse - some of the moves they show would test the limits of a heli pilots skills....and of course anything hit by .50 cal fire insta-explodes in reality.

[Luno13]

I have no idea what "bottom rudder" means, but I imagine it has something to do with his bank, ie, yawing in the direction of the bank. That seems like a snap roll to me. The renders on the show are often inconsistent with what the pilot is saying, compared to the other accounts I've seen.

Caspar makes a good point about the scene at 23:00. If anything, the P-51 pilot made a huge mistake by getting slow enough to stall, exposing him to an attack. Pure luck saved him.

[Black_Sage29]

People are quick to discredit Vets on the history channel..but guess what...they were there, they experienced it..so they have way more credit than most. The History Channel just exaggerates the Vet's account

I fly P-51 all the time, as well as P-47 and get kills all the time without the spray and pray. You need to be confident and smooth in a P-51..most that talk bad about it would get killed fairly quickly in it lol, it's not for rookies


The History Channel is exaggerating an overly-aggressive snap-roll at 10:40. Listening to the Vet, he tried to snap-roll ( like what he did earlier in the video ) and stalled too much ( thats why he fell 2,000feet) and ruddered out safely

and though snap-stalling your plane would count as a desperate measure in my book, they got away. What this show makes from these pilots testimonies -verbally and visually - that's the real problem. Every 08/15 maneuvre is "daredevil death-defiyng whatnot" and every maneuvre the enemy does is a mistake or worse. And the visual representation is even worse - some of the moves they show would test the limits of a heli pilots skills....and of course anything hit by .50 cal fire insta-explodes in reality.

Your right, History Channel exaggerates. Snap-Stalling is not a desperate measure though. It's a smart maneuver especially when the enemy plane is more maneuverable and turning is out of the question.

When your flying fast in a P-51 and you snap-roll, you'll stall a little, but you still have a bit of control of the plane, you just rudder the other way and come out of the stall...now the bandit is out in front or about to overshoot. You have to be gentle with it though cause you could lose control and stall out all the way


Also I've had enemy bandit planes explode from .50 cal fire in game. Rare but possible. You pretty much have to be a marksmen with the .50cals in game. American planes are way different from Soviet/German/and Japanese planes in game..it's harder and thats for sure

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by Black_Sage29

People are quick to discredit Vets on the history channel..but guess what...they were there, they experienced it..so they have way more credit than most. The History Channel just exaggerates the Vet's account

I fly P-51 all the time, as well as P-47 and get kills all the time without the spray and pray. You need to be confident and smooth in a P-51..most that talk bad about it would get killed fairly quickly in it lol, it's not for rookies


The History Channel is exaggerating an overly-aggressive snap-roll at 10:40. Listening to the Vet, he tried to snap-roll ( like what he did earlier in the video ) and stalled too much ( thats why he fell 2,000feet) and ruddered out safely




Your right, History Channel exaggerates. Snap-Stalling is not a desperate measure though. It's a smart maneuver especially when the enemy plane is more maneuverable and turning is out of the question.

When your flying fast in a P-51 and you snap-roll, you'll stall a little, but you still have a bit of control of the plane, you just rudder the other way and come out of the stall...now the bandit is out in front or about to overshoot. You have to be gentle with it though cause you could lose control and stall out all the way


Also I've had enemy bandit planes explode from .50 cal fire in game. Rare but possible. You pretty much have to be a marksmen with the .50cals in game. American planes are way different from Soviet/German/and Japanese planes in game..it's harder and thats for sure

Vets are great resources for just about everything ... but we have to discount and be skeptical in appropriate places. One's recollection of events tends to be skewed without consciously realizing it. Detectives interviewing witnesses of crimes have to be very careful with witness testimony because even when they "were there", peoples memories are notoriously unreliable. Stress and adrenaline and all of that stuff interfere heavily... its amazing what we make up to make the whole situation make sense.

It still doesn't mean that we should discount or discredit witness testimony altogether but it should be taken in context in my opinion.

I'm sure what happened in the end is what happened... no question from me there, but the extent to which it happened is suspect. I, like others have already said, suspect that he snap stalled it and when he recovered was lucky enough to be in a quick firing position. It felt like what History Channel did there but it likely didn't look anywhere near as well coordinated as that!

[majorfailure]

Originally Posted by Black_Sage29

Your right, History Channel exaggerates. Snap-Stalling is not a desperate measure though. It's a smart maneuver especially when the enemy plane is more maneuverable and turning is out of the question.
When your flying fast in a P-51 and you snap-roll, you'll stall a little, but you still have a bit of control of the plane, you just rudder the other way and come out of the stall...now the bandit is out in front or about to overshoot. You have to be gentle with it though cause you could lose control and stall out all the way

And that's why I would rate it as desperate. The risk of totally losing control is there. And its desperate because in the faster less maneuverable plane you should not be in that pilots position.

[EJGr.Ost_Caspar]

The interesting question (and initial one) is, what happens, if you give too much ruder in direction of the turning - in Il-2?

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by EJGr.Ost_Caspar

The interesting question (and initial one) is, what happens, if you give too much ruder in direction of the turning - in Il-2?

In the direction of turn? Nothing much really. It kind of hits a likit and then the plane may, depend on the type, stall and sometimes flops out of a turn. The interesting bit is when you slam counter rudder while rolling into a skid. In many planes, P-51 included, you can get a negative torque roll that is very difficult to follow. I use it to evade attacks online. Only partially effective as it bleeds a tom of speed.

[MaxGunz]

Especially in a P-39.

[JtD]

I once saw a documentary on a WW2 battle and it started with the offical, documented weather reports from both sides on the day of the battle. Both were in agreement that it was overcast with occasional rain. Note that this was the report, not the forecast. They then asked all veterans interviewed for that show how they remembered the weather, they averaged out on sunny with some clouds, each being different from each other. Imho this was a perfect illustration how memory and facts can differ when it comes to detail.

I don't think that the documentaries are a bad thing. I like to listen to the people telling what they experienced, first had accounts are almost always worth the time spent listening. Also, for the casual viewer, it is this kind of show that generates interest in the WW2 flight sim genre. Better to have some facts wrong about the air war in WW2, then to not know that there was an air war at all.