4.12 development update discussion and feedback

[majorfailure]

Originally Posted by jameson

Please explain how this AI gets to be an ace if he's a psycho and crashes without fail? Something not quite right there, I'd have thought.

So he does just fly into the ground for no further reason? From your previous statement it sounded like he misjudges the distance required for his maneuvers and crashes -running out of airspace.

Originally Posted by jameson

Wouldn't an ace be more circumspect, lead you around and make you commit a fatal error then finish you off or set out to maximise an advantage before commiting to an attack?

In general yes. There were aces that were good at setting up their encounters, never attacking without a clear plan in mind, always attacking only in favourable position. Knowing their/the enemys planes strenghts and weaknesses.
And there were others, that got into almost any fight they could pick, most of the times surprising the enemy, were good dogfighters and good marksmen - and thus sucessful. But they lacked tactical discipline. From one of those I would expect to sometimes want too much in a fight and then maybe even misjudge the distance to the ground.

For example take Hans-Joachim Marseille, he was a brilliant fighter pilot and superb marksman, but he destroyed more than one plane upon landing.

Or take Josef Frantisek, had next to zero discipline, but racked up 17 kills in a few weeks, many of them against foes flying "superior" planes - and he died in a crash for that no technical explanation was found - supposedly he was over-exhausted.

Originally Posted by jameson

Ever read about an ace who goes head to head?

Why not? If he is an agressive, confident personality (overly) sure of himself and his abilities, then yes. Tommy McGuire supposedly did so.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by majorfailure

In general yes. There were aces that were good at setting up their encounters, never attacking without a clear plan in mind, always attacking only in favourable position. Knowing their/the enemys planes strenghts and weaknesses.
And there were others, that got into almost any fight they could pick, most of the times surprising the enemy, were good dogfighters and good marksmen - and thus sucessful. But they lacked tactical discipline. From one of those I would expect to sometimes want too much in a fight and then maybe even misjudge the distance to the ground.

The WW1 equivalents would be Manfred von Richtofen and Werner Voss.

It would be interesting if the IL2 AI could model these different types of aces - the "tacticians" and the "dogfighters." The former were generally excellent leaders who trained other pilots to be aces. The latter were generally loners who eventually made one mistake too many.

[Blaf]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

The WW1 equivalents would be Manfred von Richtofen and Werner Voss.

It would be interesting if the IL2 AI could model these different types of aces - the "tacticians" and the "dogfighters." The former were generally excellent leaders who trained other pilots to be aces. The latter were generally loners who eventually made one mistake too many.

If i remember correctly, there already are several types of AI behaviour.

[EJGr.Ost_Caspar]

Originally Posted by Blaf

If i remember correctly, there already are several types of AI behaviour.

Yes, but all AI knows and performs all maneuvers. There are no exclusive Turn'nBurners or Boom'nZoomers. The idea to have exclusive profiles among the Ace level is not that bad IMHO though.

But... how would react an ace of energy fighting, when he is forced by the situation to dogfight? Will he perform badly and be shot down easily or will he adapt to the situation, still using his all around ace ability? Even hard to make a gameplay concept here.

[majorfailure]

Originally Posted by EJGr.Ost_Caspar

But... how would react an ace of energy fighting, when he is forced by the situation to dogfight? Will he perform badly and be shot down easily or will he adapt to the situation, still using his all around ace ability? Even hard to make a gameplay concept here.

An Ace at energy fighting - how could you force him to dogfight? Would be a rare occasion IMHO. And the "average" ace should be a good flyer -so most of the time he would be at least a decent dogfighter.

Maybe it would be easier to give the AI pilots "traits of character". Say gunnery skill, flying skill, tactical skill, leadership skill - and agressiveness (agressive/average/timid) ( and others?). Then have them graded in bad, mediocre, average, good, exceptional. The "average" ace would simply be good at everything- but there should be a few that are only average in one or two traits -and a few that are exceptional. The "average" novice should be mediocre - but there should be a few born leaders, marksmen, flyers among them -and have maybe good gunnery skills.

The flying skill would determine how well versed that AI pilot is at maneuvers and how good he executes them -generally. Their tactical skills would determine what maneuvers they fly at what time - as well as their agressiveness. A timid/good flyer/good tactician then could for example choose to execute a split-S as guns defense, while an agressive/exceptional flyer/mediocre tactician would go for a rolling scissors. Same one would maybe try to follow a turning target, while a veteran with exceptional tactics would maybe try a displacement roll.

Do AI currently have some form of knowledge of their planes strengths and weaknesses?

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by majorfailure

Maybe it would be easier to give the AI pilots "traits of character". Say gunnery skill, flying skill, tactical skill, leadership skill - and agressiveness (agressive/average/timid) ( and others?). Then have them graded in bad, mediocre, average, good, exceptional. The "average" ace would simply be good at everything- but there should be a few that are only average in one or two traits -and a few that are exceptional. The "average" novice should be mediocre - but there should be a few born leaders, marksmen, flyers among them -and have maybe good gunnery skills.

I'd also add Health and Situational Awareness to the mix.

Health determines ability to handle injury and G-stresses.

Situational Awareness determines spotting distances and likelihood of losing sight of an enemy when he ducks out of sight.

Even better, have a way of letting players choose these traits for AI pilots in the FMB.

[Derda508]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

I'd also add Health and Situational Awareness to the mix.

Health determines ability to handle injury and G-stresses.

Situational Awareness determines spotting distances and likelihood of losing sight of an enemy when he ducks out of sight.

Even better, have a way of letting players choose these traits for AI pilots in the FMB.

Don´t forget the occasional hangover

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Blaf

If i remember correctly, there already are several types of AI behaviour.

What I meant was the sort of AI where an Ace leader effectively uses the full resources under his command against you, doing things like setting up ambushes or tactical situations which favor his side and then taking 1-2 hapless victims while letting the rest of his flight divide up the rest of the victims, vs. an Ace who ignores the other planes in his flight in order to dogfight you and maybe lets his flight get chewed up as a result.

Right now, due to the limitations of the AI, enemy formations are rather stupid in their behavior, even at Ace level, or if commanded by an Ace. In effect, they're all "dogfighters" with no great tactical leaders like Von Richtofen, Johnny Johnson or Hub Zemke.