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#1
11-28-2012, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
 Quote:
You can see in attachment where is the expected wing failure for one WWII fighter. Quote:
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#3
11-28-2012, 06:42 PM
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Trolls...
Ah well, I remember having to give up on a mechanical science forum because of one of those. He kept arguing that imperial measurements were far superior to metrics and people were foolish enough to argue with him. There is only one response to Trolls: ignore them. Here is some counseling: http://www.wikihow.com/Recognize-a-T...n-the-Internet http://trollpolice.com/trolls-and-cyberstalkers/ ~S~ |
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#4
11-28-2012, 06:57 PM
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So Gaston, if I understand correctly, your theory is that these previously unnoticed and/or not measured and/or unmeasurable forces you describe are so significant that they make the P-47 and the 190 into good low-speed turners, even though all the known, measurable, and measured forces predict the opposite to be true. Correct?
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#5
11-28-2012, 11:31 PM
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Gaston
Please don't quote me as agreeing anything you say, without me first, actually agreeing. No need to do vast research, just pick one combat report from any list and we will see what happens in the ten either side. Nice, simple and easy for anyone to check. I strongly suspect that you have not found a suitable example and are going to try and blind me and everyone else with vast amounts of data that will mean nothing |
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#6
11-29-2012, 12:37 AM
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#7
11-29-2012, 02:26 AM
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Based on criteria of fitting the hypothesis in some manner.
Don't say "any" list because you won't get just any list. Just because there's accounts on a web site doesn't mean there's been no selection of which accounts are presented. Just for example: the pilots who did not come back did not make combat reports. That alone is data selection. |
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#8
11-29-2012, 09:39 PM
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 long time heuh?! Wurger's wings broke at 14g continous and fuselage at 20g continous. the full "monocoque" design was one of the strongest or even maybe the strongest of all planes of WW2. About the low speed turn from Gaston theory : wtf  yes, the 190could turn faster than other planes in certain conditions, but we can't actually talk about a turn in the sense most think of (180° or higher), the 190 was able to START the turn much faster than most planes due to it's aileron effectiveness (roll rate acceleration) and as Gaston should know, a turn bleeds aircraft energy very bad, and semi laminar wing profile is not so good for low speeds, that's why you do not turn make direction changes of more than 90° in combat with a 190 and you keep scissoring and rolling keeping the speed high, if your fysical condition allows it... A (real veteran)russion pilot said some years ago after seeing IL2: you make continuesly turns of more than 3G, in real life after a few of those turns, your muscles burns, your vision is troubled and you can't handle the stick correctly,what means you're a sitting duck in a combat area. PS: an A8 at 6000m is faster in a 90° turn than a P51D, not because of the speed, but because the plane has a higher angle and the pilot, due to his seat pisition, is allowed to endure +1G than any other plane  PS2: how are you FC? 
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#9
02-20-2013, 12:01 AM
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Well, I figure in typical WWII aircraft the upper limit is 6 G (typical pilot limit) plus 2 Gs of engine-caused wing bending... So that is still 8 Gs total, and still within what you say is the start of permanent deformation... An exceptional case is the P-51, which with G-suit could make the pilot tolerate 7 Gs, and probably added 2 "Gs" or more with the engine leverage... So that makes for 9-10Gs... Hey, isn't the P-51 well-known for unexpected -and never explained- wing and tail failures? Hmmm... What a coincidence... Also the P-51's wing obviously bent more than expected given its gun reliability record under turning Gs: Now isn't that another interesting coincidence? Another interesting case is the Spitfire, which in my view must have added an exceptional amount of wing bending to its 6 G pilot limit: I figure up to 3 Gs, or over 22 000 lbs worth of extra wing bending over the "base" 44 000 lbs at 6 Gs... This also makes for a total of 9 Gs, but the mutliple spar-inside-the spar wing construction was well-designed to bend, and could probably take that without huge risks... Unlike the P-51, the Spitfire is not known for wing failures, but IS known for wing deformation at high Gs with careless pilots... What a coincidence... Since the pilot could not take much more than 6 Gs without at least losing his situational awareness in close combat, it does seem a bit strange these things were often damaged... Gaston |
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#10
02-20-2013, 12:40 AM
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Sorry for the long delay, but re-reading all those P-47Ds accounts is a large "investment" of my time, and you'll understand I have other things to do than to convince people...
I'll just post part of the long rambling post I prepeared, and yes there will be P-47 accounts to debate... I did find TWO account of Me-109Gs causing some trouble in turns to a P-47, both by the same P-47 pilot, Covelle. They are sustained turns, but they are hardly a show of crushing Me-109 superiority... That they are both from the same pilot, out of hundreds of accounts of P-47s beating Me-109s in typically 2-3 turns, is hardly convincing, not to mention the content of the reports. Rare, rare, RARE case of the Me-109G causing the P-47 trouble in a Luftberry: Only one of two I am aware of so far...: http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...er-11feb44.jpg Another rare case of a P-47 in trouble vs a Me-109, by Covelle again, despite him having no trouble with his tanks full previously, now had trouble with one out 109 out of several (but equal to the others): Then, out of ammunition and still fighting(!): "I broke into this 109 and he tacked on to me, but I managed to out-turn him until I reached the clouds": http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...le-7june44.jpg Note this, however, before the nay-sayers start singing in the streets over these two accounts...: I have no doubt a reduced-power ME-109G will out-turn a full power paddle-blade P-47D, especially a Bubbletop and especially to the right... So I'll get back to those later... With that out of the way, let's try once again to inject a bit of observed FW-190A reality into this... (And I will spell it this way...) Tactical and technical trends, Nov. 5-11 1942: -"Maneuverability--Except at lower speeds-around 140 MPH(!)- The FW-190 is superior and will out-turn the P-38" (A FW-190A-4) -1943 British test: "The P-38G and FW-190A-4 are roughly similar in turning ability" Note this combat of a P-38G against a Me-109G: Lt. Royal Madden from the 370th FG, 9th AF, July 31, 1944 “Approximately 15 Me 109s came down on Blue Flight and we broke left. I then made a vertical right turn and observed Blue Two below and close and Blue Four was ahead and slightly above me. I glanced behind me and saw four Me 109s closing on my tail fast and within range so I broke left and down in a Split S. I used flaps to get out and pulled up and to the left. I then noticed a single Me 109 on my tail and hit the deck in a sharp spiral. We seemed to be the only two planes around so we proceeded to mix it up in a good old-fashioned dogfight at about 1000 feet. This boy was good and he had me plenty worried as he sat on my tail for about five minutes, but I managed to keep him from getting any deflection. I was using maneuvering flaps often and finally got inside of him. I gave him a short burst at 60 degrees, but saw I was slightly short so I took about 2 radii lead at about 150 yards and gave him a good long burst. There were strikes on the cockpit and all over the ship and the canopy came off. He rolled over on his back and seemed out of control so I closed in and was about to give him a burst at 0 deflection when he bailed out at 800 feet. Having lost the squadron I hit the deck for home. Upon landing I learned that my two 500 pound bombs had not released when I had tried to jettison them upon being jumped. As a result I carried them throughout the fight.” [!!!!] Well Ok it is all meningless etc... Anyway, here are a few P-47 combat reports with my comments: -Poor FW-190A high-speed handling (400 MPH speed, elongated loop, abrupt pitching-up, blacking out the pilot as in the "tendency to black-out the pilot" in the P-47 test two links above (nose high deceleration in a broad curve of course), snapping completely out in 400mph turns etc...): http://www.spitfireperformance...0-murrell-2dec44.jpg Inability of the FW-190A to make turns at 500 mph: "He tried short sharp turns right and left, and what seemed skidding turns down. There was no violent evasive action at all.": http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...l-2march44.jpg Superior P-47D turn rate against Me-109G (contrast later to FW-190A): http://www.wwiiaircraftperform.../56-mudge-1dec43.jpg http://www.wwiiaircraftperform...-covelle-19may44.jpg Lesser or nil P-47D superiority in turns to right vs Me-109G (as example of why the opposite could be demonstrated: It seems the P-47D out-turned the Me-109G severely to the left mostly): http://www.wwiiaircraftperform...truluck-27sept43.jpg Now contrast this to the FW-190A-8, late in 1944 (The P-47 has to escape in a zoom...): http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...ke-19dec44.jpg More Me-109G turnfight-beating links http://www.wwiiaircraftperform...cdermott-25may44.jpg http://www.wwiiaircraftperform...8-luckey-19may44.jpg http://www.wwiiaircraftperform...-covelle-19may44.jpg http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...rth-7oct44.jpg "I easily out-turned them (2 Me-109Gs) from 9000 ft to 2000 ft": http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...-15march44.jpg "We started turning with several 109s, and were having no difficulty doing it at 23500 ft. with full tanks" "About 4 (109s)across the circle from and five pulling in on us from six o'clock. But as we pulled deflection on the others across from us, the rest seemed to lose interest in the fight and disappeared" 10 000 ft.: "The e/a started trying to turn, and we out-turned them immediately" http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...le-19may44.jpg Earlier needle-tip prop (pre-Jan-1944) P-47Ds also showed a significant superiority in sustained turns to the Me-109G, except that to the right the margin is closer: "My excess speed was about gone but I was gradually getting inside and nearer to him" ---Despite being in a right-turning Luftberry: Close to stalling but still gaining...: http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...ke-19dec44.jpg Luftberry http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...e-8april44.jpg Turning` http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...-22feb44-b.jpg two turns around hangar and "I was continually out-turning him" http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...t-8april44.jpg two luftberrys. I closed on the last E/A http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...tz-29nov44.jpg "tight luftberry. My excess airspeed was about gone, but I was gradually getting inside and nearer to him (Me-109)" http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...k-27sept43.jpg "In this engagement we succeeded in out-diving and out-turning the enemy (Me-109) at any altitude" http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...on-12may44.jpg 8000 ft-"We had no difficulty turning and climbing with them": http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...ey-19may44.jpg In another example, which I could not find, a gondola Me-109G holds its own to the right with a P-47D at high altitude. (Altitude seem to matter little in relative P-47D vs Me-109G turn performance) In another example of P-47D turn assymetry vs the Me-109G, notice how, against the very same Me-109G, the contest is a LOT longer and closer when to the RIGHT (several P-47 pilot quotes confirm the strong preference of the P-47D for the left turn)...: http://www.wwiiaircraftperform...wilkinson-1dec43.jpg Interesting mixture of turning and dive/zooming by a FW-190A: I would call it an unusually equitable use of both turning and dive and zoom: He gets killed in a zoom: http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...-23march44.jpg Against a late FW-190A-8, no so easy...: "We fought a long running and turning fight eastward, during which which I was out-turned several times which necessitated climbing and allowing the e/a to run" Just before that a Luftberry alone with 3 Me-109s had resulted in a kill... http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...ke-19dec44.jpg Against the FW-190A? Not so easy...: Again, long turning battle with the FW-190A, a rough match: http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...-22april44.jpg Again,"not being able to hold any more deflection" against a FW-190A: http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...l-8march44.jpg "Not being able to tighten my turn any further" against a FW-190A, and "overrunnning" him twice in the same sentence: http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...l-8march44.jpg Now... For a fair comparison, wouldn't you agree a first step would be similar amount of combat accounts showing the "superior turn-fighting" Me-109Gs out-turning the poor helpless P-47? (And this at low speeds in sustained multiple circles, I might add, since high speeds did seem to favour the Me-109G vs the P-47 at least a little...) Very noteworthy in these accounts is that altitude seems to matter little when the Me-109 goes up against a P-47: On the deck, very high, pretty much the same... I collated this from a larger post, sorry if there are repetitions... I imagined all of it anyway you know... Gaston |
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