Soviet fighters and 4.12

[gaunt1]

Soviet 12.7mm should be much more powerful than now. It was far superior to the Browning .50, and almost at the level of the MG151/15. But ShVAK & B20 should be weaker. It had quite low HEI content for the total weight of the projectile.

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

[1984]

Originally Posted by gaunt1

Soviet 12.7mm should be much more powerful than now. It was far superior to the Browning .50, and almost at the level of the MG151/15.

compare with what?

well, maybe, .50 too good (i remember here, before some patch .50 was more powerful), but berezin and mg151 very similar and not bad, and mg151 little better... what REALLY wrong here, ub vs. mg151?

mg151 - 2-4,5 g of HE, 960 m/s, 700 shots in min...

ubs - 2-4 g of HE, 860, 700-800...

AP of mg151 little better, especially, "H-Pzgr"...

and? i don't see here any really "wow" in compare with 15 mm, similar guns, but of course it's really good weapon (like in your link - "The gas operated UB was the best gun of its class, lighter (21kg) and faster firing than any other guns with similar ammunition performance.") - and remember this if you want start talking about "bad" soviet weapon of fighters, for example, "only ubs and shvak" (+ this is why i'm talking about differences of yak-7b without gargrot and yak-9, and about yak-3 before 13 serie)...


+ interesting thing about effectiveness -

Пули БЗТ, БЗФ, МДЗ обеспечивали возгорание не только топлива, но и конструктивных материалов самолета, созданных на основе алюминиево-магниевых сплавов.

you know materials of german fighters?

But ShVAK & B20 should be weaker. It had quite low HEI content for the total weight of the projectile.

now shvak weaker than mg151/20, hispano and vya-23, where you see problem here? or it's like what you written here usually?

and mg151/20 better mainly with "miningeschoss", but this special shell and not so obviously, what, mg really more better with this wunderwaffe than shvak (don't want write here now some rumors about this), and other german shells very similar with shvak shells in fact...

early HE shell for shvak (before 40-41) - 2.75 g of he...

late HE shell for shvak (after 41) - 5-6 g of he...


well, i think, maybe need some little corrects, but general problem - all 20mm guns like lasers...

second problem - 37 mm shells of ns-37 and m-4 (maybe, 30 mm too) not so deadly (too much "blank hits" of HE shells without any damage, sometimes help only AP hits... remember, for first yak-9t ONLY he shells, and later can only he too sometimes... and? you understood?)...

maybe, something more...


+ about n-37 and yak-9ut (i can't find time for read this book) -

Согласно описанию пушки, сделанному Нудельманом, темп стрельбы 400 выстр./мин, а средний темп на испытаниях в октябре 1944 г. 311 выстр./мин.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by gaunt1

Soviet 12.7mm should be much more powerful than now. It was far superior to the Browning .50, and almost at the level of the MG151/15. But ShVAK & B20 should be weaker. It had quite low HEI content for the total weight of the projectile.

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

It's hard to say exactly but relatively speaking, and given the age of the simulators damage model (some aspects of the aircraft are not part of the DM), I think the damage done is fairly accurate.

I really don't think the Berezin needs to be any more powerful than it is. It's already just a hair off of some 20mm cannons. One second worth of shooting and you can de-tail some earlier Bf109 versions and de-wing just about anything smaller than a bomber and that's with one nose mounted gun. IMHO it's probably better than the MG151/15 in my experience.

The ShVAK 20mm is probably a distant third with a toss up between Hispano 20mm and MG151/20 so that really doesn't need much adjusting either. Back in the day the MG151/20 was probably third place but that was until it was belted with the Mine rounds and after that it easily is the most destructive. Especially from an explosive standpoint. The Hispano hits harder from a kinetic point of view which makes sense given it's higher muzzle velocity and larger shell.

[JV44Priller]

I still think its odd that with a German 30mm cannon I can destroy a bomber in 1-2 shots. But a Yak-9U took 2 30mm shots directly in the tail from a distance of .38-.45km and kept flying.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by JV44Priller

I still think its odd that with a German 30mm cannon I can destroy a bomber in 1-2 shots. But a Yak-9U took 2 30mm shots directly in the tail from a distance of .38-.45km and kept flying.

Or it explodes in one shot... lots of outliers...

[JV44Priller]

Originally Posted by IceFire

Or it explodes in one shot... lots of outliers...

True. I was just mad that a Yak-9U could hang with me at 8k meters. lol

[gaunt1]

Originally Posted by IceFire

... One second worth of shooting and you can de-tail some earlier Bf109 versions...

I dont know if the DM of the 109 is right or not, but I did it many times with just a pair of ShKAS. But the ShKAS isnt more powerful than other similar machineguns, like the MG17. Maybe if it would consume ammunition quicker...

[1984]

Originally Posted by 1984

and in real life FN pilots NOT open "stvorki" in fly, only if pilot wants to do this (no reasons in real fight and flight situations for stvorki FULL open, maybe for cooling engine sometimes), and was open only oil cooler, but only "по потоку", it means not full open, so - pilots and la-5 lose NOT 45-50 km/h...

i think, when oil cooler "по потоку" and stvorki open on 1/3 - this mean NO any problems with engine work (on forsazh too) - aircraft lose 20-25 km/h...

sorry for self quoting, interesting info about discipline, etc -

Главный инженер периодически проверял летчиков на знание материальной части и заносил результаты проверок в их личные дела. В случае если уровень знаний оказывался не удовлетворительным, инженер имел право отстранить летчиков от полетов и заставить изучать теорию.

[Jumoschwanz]

Well it is nice that so much fun has been had with this thread, but it was BS from the start. The Soviet planes in this sim have no huge speed advantages over their axis contemporaries if any at all, and very often while they may be a close match in speed at one altitude to axis fighters, they lose out at another badly.

The thread starter is obviously some sort of neophyte who made his own little IL2 world somewhere and got bored with it, and sucked you all in to his problems.

Every patch or two I test a large number of the aircraft in this sim at sea-level and at 5000 meters altitude with power and radiator settings as close as I can make them.
If you are not on some sort of children's server that throws all the years of WWII together at once, then there is no aircraft that is going to give you an advantage that will guarantee success.

The best advantage you can have is education and intelligence, and those who blame their problems in virtual aerial combat on their aircraft or the current patch of IL2 sure don't have those two attributes.

The really good and mature IL2 pilots over the past decade have prevailed through all the patches, flying all the aircraft both red and blue, and have been able to do it without bending the sim to suit their wet-dreams by modding it. Those are the guys I call aces.....

[ElAurens]

Well said.