Soviet fighters and 4.12

[DKoor]

Originally Posted by K_Freddie

As an 99% axis man .. I've never had a problem with any allied aircraft.
It depends what tactics you use, your flying skills and of course.. your Imagination.
All the aircraft are better than than others in certain respects.. one has to use your advantages.

+1

Russians except Yak-9U are not a serious match for German late war crates. On most levels encountered in this game in spite of popular belief.

It's just that after some time with this game when I get past turning and circling I learned to appreciate speed and big cannons. With time it felt like cheating especially if you are teamed up with FW guys who use brains.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by DKoor

+1

Russians except Yak-9U are not a serious match for German late war crates. On most levels encountered in this game in spite of popular belief.

It's just that after some time with this game when I get past turning and circling I learned to appreciate speed and big cannons. With time it felt like cheating especially if you are teamed up with FW guys who use brains.

Bingo. I remember a few good runs in with FW190 crew where we just swept through swarms of Russian fighters in a few online scenarios. Whatever was in front of the group was shot at (and probably blasted to pieces). We never stopped... never turned around or manoeuvred in any meaningful fashion. At least not until we were well out of the battle area and then we swept through again... Late war German aircraft are top level. IRL the Russians just had so many more and the training was good for the Russians at that point and seriously hit and miss for the Germans.

That said... the Yak-9U, the Yak-3, and the La-7 are all top performers but they make a few sacrifices to get there. None of them have the same level of firepower for example. But I do have considerable fun in a Yak-9U showing what it can do... not many pilots have really gotten to know this fighter.

[Z1024]

Well yeah, good teamwork wins hands down - no doubt about that. However that is irrelevant in this topic.
La7 in the game is faster than any FW190, including even the MW50 Dora (In il2 compare D9 MW50 is slightly faster @ about 6k)
La7 has better climb ratio
La7 has better turn ratio
the 3 cannon version La7 has more firepower than D9.
The only thing FW is better at is maybe the roll rate.

With all other parameters (E/speed/altitude/pilot skill) being equal FW190 is guaranteed to loose.

Teamwork, using brains, BnZ attacks, dragging the La7 to friendles/AAAs etc - are all just tricks one can use to overcome FWs disadvantages.

All these factors are just noise when evaluating relative aircraft performance.

There are of course late war German planes in the game that can challenge any allied plane of the era - the jets. But you don't see them available on late war maps (online) very often

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by Z1024

Well yeah, good teamwork wins hands down - no doubt about that. However that is irrelevant in this topic.
La7 in the game is faster than any FW190, including even the MW50 Dora (In il2 compare D9 MW50 is slightly faster @ about 6k)
La7 has better climb ratio
La7 has better turn ratio
the 3 cannon version La7 has more firepower than D9.
The only thing FW is better at is maybe the roll rate.

With all other parameters (E/speed/altitude/pilot skill) being equal FW190 is guaranteed to loose.

Teamwork, using brains, BnZ attacks, dragging the La7 to friendles/AAAs etc - are all just tricks one can use to overcome FWs disadvantages.

All these factors are just noise when evaluating relative aircraft performance.

There are of course late war German planes in the game that can challenge any allied plane of the era - the jets. But you don't see them available on late war maps (online) very often

Why is teamwork not important when it's quintessential to WWII air combat? Effective team tactics are made all the better by types of aircraft that are, in effect, team aircraft. A team of La-7s, in my view, is not as effective as a team of FW190s. The ability to boom and zoom is something that the FW190 has as a capability that the La-7 does not. The La-7 has all of those attributes you mention but dive speed and control along with inferior roll rate to the FW190 makes the FW190 more of a boom and zoom machine than the La-7... thus using that technique in proper team tactics allows a well coordinated FW190 team to out perform a well coordinated La-7 team by using the types of techniques that make it difficult for the enemy to fight you at all.

All too often I think the relative performance is analyzed in isolation.

Now... La-7 actual performance versus what we have in-game I can't make any claim about. I don't have the data either way.... but I do think all too often people throw up their hands in defeat when, in actual fact, the Axis aircraft are extremely capable already. It just requires some different thinking.

[Shardur]

Originally Posted by IceFire

...
All too often I think the relative performance is analyzed in isolation.
...

This thread is not about relative performance to other planes and/or balancing, but about how accurate the rl performance of the Soviet planes is depicted in game.
The current hypothesis is that a lot of the Soviet planes are depicted with a rather poor flight model compared to some of the other nations planes and the performance in game should be reduced to the numbers found in sources from the time since it is seen as too optimistic and sometimes accedes even the documented performance of prototype models.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by Shardur

This thread is not about relative performance to other planes and/or balancing, but about how accurate the rl performance of the Soviet planes is depicted in game.
The current hypothesis is that a lot of the Soviet planes are depicted with a rather poor flight model compared to some of the other nations planes and the performance in game should be reduced to the numbers found in sources from the time since it is seen as too optimistic and sometimes accedes even the documented performance of prototype models.

That was the premise of the thread but not the discussion occurring at present. If comparing German versus Russian aircraft in the late war arena and you factor in teamwork, even with what may be exaggerated Russian performance numbers on a couple of aircraft, the Germans still do well. And do well particularly when teamwork is involved. That's my point.

As far as the original discussion... I've never seen any good La-7 data to support what we have in-game but I've not seen any good data to show otherwise either. It's frustrating to find references to non-Western aircraft as the information is rarely as available or detailed.

I personally advocate against any notion of "balance". This is simulation and aircraft should perform at an established level of realism as best is possible. If there are good sources that I haven't seen and they are well sourced and detailed then... hopefully some attention can be given.

[Jumoschwanz]

Poor, poor Gaunt......bored because he is not getting shot down,...... and apparently not smart enough to figure out how to find any entertainment, like jumping into an I-16 on Vinni Puh vs. multiple and smartly flown 109F4s for instance.