Fresh stuff from sukhoi.ru (Discussion)

[csThor]

There's now an offspring from the thread with the map discussion at sukhoi.ru and I find that one very interesting. Some of the opinions there match my own - maps are only large enough when the historically relevant bomber bases are on the map. On the CloD map 99% of the bomber bases are not on the map at all ... only Amiens - Glisy (Stab & I./KG 1), Montdidier (II./KG 1), Rosieres-en-Santerre (III./KG 1), Creil (II./KG 76), Beauvais-Tille (I./KG 76) and Cormeilles-en-Vexin (Stab & III./KG 76). There is, for example, not a single bomber base of Luftflotte 3 represented which - if we had a campaign engine - would seriously limit the campaign possibilities for a bomber pilot.

I know about the limited resources, but quite honestly with maps not encompassing the relevant bases for all types of aircraft (with the bombers having the ones farthest back) then the gameplay will always be rather limited even offline. 'cause if you don't have a base an offline campaign is pointless.

[philip.ed]

I don't understand why the CloD map took at least three years to make. Obviously it's a big area, but surely WW2 maps could be used to map the location of every road, town, village etc and then just use the tool in the editor we saw to add the housing and fields...? A lot of tailoring would be needed, but with a sufficient team I don't think it's impossible, especially considering the work that was done on the Cross Channel map for Il-2.

It's probably a lot more complex to make sure everything fits, but bear in mind the BoB2 has a larger map IIRC with every road and landmark visible in 1940.

[SiThSpAwN]

Originally Posted by philip.ed

I don't understand why the CloD map took at least three years to make. Obviously it's a big area, but surely WW2 maps could be used to map the location of every road, town, village etc and then just use the tool in the editor we saw to add the housing and fields...? A lot of tailoring would be needed, but with a sufficient team I don't think it's impossible, especially considering the work that was done on the Cross Channel map for Il-2.

It's probably a lot more complex to make sure everything fits, but bear in mind the BoB2 has a larger map IIRC with every road and landmark visible in 1940.

I can only imagine all the problems, issues, time and effort that goes into a map the size of the channel map, and how long it would take to build, populate and make look half way decent.... 3 years sounds pretty right from start to finish...

[klem]

Originally Posted by philip.ed

I don't understand why the CloD map took at least three years to make. Obviously it's a big area, but surely WW2 maps could be used to map the location of every road, town, village etc and then just use the tool in the editor we saw to add the housing and fields...? A lot of tailoring would be needed, but with a sufficient team I don't think it's impossible, especially considering the work that was done on the Cross Channel map for Il-2.

It's probably a lot more complex to make sure everything fits, but bear in mind the BoB2 has a larger map IIRC with every road and landmark visible in 1940.

This was another of the big disappointments for me. We have a Walt Disney map whereas with old maps as guides, even templates, we could have had far more historical detail, properly placed roads etc and I doubt if it would have taken much more effort than what we have.

Perhaps he SDK will allow us to create a new map and perhaps even submit it for 1C to include in the file set.

[mazex]

Originally Posted by csThor

There's now an offspring from the thread with the map discussion at sukhoi.ru and I find that one very interesting. Some of the opinions there match my own - maps are only large enough when the historically relevant bomber bases are on the map. On the CloD map 99% of the bomber bases are not on the map at all ... only Amiens - Glisy (Stab & I./KG 1), Montdidier (II./KG 1), Rosieres-en-Santerre (III./KG 1), Creil (II./KG 76), Beauvais-Tille (I./KG 76) and Cormeilles-en-Vexin (Stab & III./KG 76). There is, for example, not a single bomber base of Luftflotte 3 represented which - if we had a campaign engine - would seriously limit the campaign possibilities for a bomber pilot.

I know about the limited resources, but quite honestly with maps not encompassing the relevant bases for all types of aircraft (with the bombers having the ones farthest back) then the gameplay will always be rather limited even offline. 'cause if you don't have a base an offline campaign is pointless.

Well, I think the only way to get maps of that size is do a very crude auto generation - or have the community do them with an SDK that allows making large maps. Maybe that would be OK? Have the relevant parts of the map detailed and autogenerate the stuff in the peripheral parts that are mostly interesting for a very small group that like to take off from a bomber base hundreds of miles from the target and actually spend hours before getting there? I do realize that there are people that like this but they can't be many percent of the target audience to make this game profitable.

But it would be nice to please both the broad and the narrow users. But that would have to involve some autogeneration that off course would have threads with people crying about roads going over rivers with no bridge etc... Roads that where built in 1990 in the game etc... I think an auto generated map would have to use OpenStreetmap or similar to be economically possible. Maybe with manual deletion of major highways around cities etc that would be to hurting for the eyes

I really don't thing that the business model where the SDK only allows the making of small maps is a wise one... If you can only do maps with the available terrain and props, why not focus on releasing new game modes and features that gets packed in new "versions" that everyone wants to pay for, and let the community or third party build all the maps they can to expand the product?

And by the way as this is a theoretical discussion - any kind of SDK would be a boost for the product

EDIT - a crazy idea, make a web based GUI built on OpenStreetmap where users can add or remove roads etc like in the "real" OpenStreetmap and then have an engine that "bakes" the map into a CloD map I have added a number of minor roads and paths into OpenStreetmap where I live and added a road into Google Maps too that was marked the wrong way... That way it would gradually get better and better and instead of whining about a missing bridge - people could add it themselves Just dreaming... And then have monthly builds where the new stuff gets into the baseline map.