Now see what moding does for a game and company!

[csThor]

European Air War ... Panzer Elite ... for me modding killed sims already. If I had been into online flying in 1946 at the end it would have done the same. It does fracture the community into groups, sometimes these groups get along fine, sometimes it degenerates into ego-driven flamewars. IMO modding is less about enhancing the gaming experience for the end user but about fiddling, experimenting and ultimately receiving internet adulation.

[KG26_Alpha]

Well as an online user via Hyperlobby I can say only what I see.

Mods definitely affected the online aspect of IL2 1946 for the worse.

From an average @ 1000 users to 350 the decline was obvious what they had done.

Mod users will say that natural decay of user interest will be the reason, but after 10 years watching IL2 build its online community that just isn't the case,
there was a exodus due to the mods from squads and individuals across the board.

v4.11.1 has seen a rise in Hyperlobby activity with the most popular Dogfight servers split approximately 50/50 between stock and various mods.

CooP pilots are flying stock v4.11.1 more than before.

As a mod user myself in the past I appreciate there's been some good work done, but also at present there's some bad things that have been done especially the mod that allows users to force thier way into CRT=2 stock versions.
This is the base of the mistrust between the community when mod creators allow back door hacks into the stock version of the game.

v4.11.1 has no protection from the mod hacks so once again stock users are at the mercy of pilots bringing altered aircraft into a stock version, this also creates problems for the stock users that low level bomb as they instantly explode as soon as thier bombs are dropped, this then leaves the v4.11.1 user confused as he flying stock and cant get his bombs to arm correctly.
The modded users are causing this problem possibly due to the new synchronization of the bomb effects between clients.

The confused stock user then install a mod pack to get around the bomb problem compounding the problem further for stock users, as the mods are the cause of the problem in the first place.

So some stuff good some bad, mostly bad in my opinion as it is at the moment.






.

[ECV56_Guevara]

I m a mod user, I really like some of them, I hate others. And of course them disgregate the comunity. What Caspar and Alpha said it s true. Offline activity maybe increased, who knows...but the hiperlobby it s a desert now. And it is not only about a 10 years old game, disgregation, confusion, made the comunity smaller. The only shelter are squads, the ones big enought to still be attractive to coop or FoF players.

[RPS69]

Mods could kill the community, yes, but cheats have been going on in il2 far before the modding started.

There are bad attitude modders, and there are well intentioned ones.

Some MODS are absolutely fantastic, some are just crap. But anyway, it shows at least many things that were called not possible as a reality.

I have witnessed cheats with MODS, but I also witnessed that long before they were released. Some squads were well known for their cheating capacity, well before the MODS become open.

So, there is a large confusion about MODS, but hardcore people are still on it, with better missions than before.

And also the tendency to join squads and play private campaigns was there far before the MODS appeared. It was the only safe haven from cheaters online.

The only damage MODS could really be blamed, is the different versions available, and the risk of destroying your own il2 install with singular MODS.

The last patch from TD, have got many people back to official patch release, instead of modded ones. Mainly because of their better management of planes and AI behavior. Those are the things that really makes a difference in this game, not one more variant of a 109 or a spit.

Now, make the ships engage evasive maneuvers, better their wrecks, and the same for moving ground objects, and it will be a better move than adding any more planes into the sim.

This sims, needs better playability, not more objects to play with.

[sniperton]

Originally Posted by RPS69

Those are the things that really makes a difference in this game, not one more variant of a 109 or a spit. ... This sims, needs better playability, not more objects to play with.

Agreed. But some selected objects/planes/maps, better sounds and visual effects wouldn't hurt either, provided they are of high quality. Now the problem is that TD goes one way (e.g. AI -- that's good), while the modding community goes another (more effects, more this and that -- and that's not bad either). Both approaches have produced some really excellent stuff, but they hardly overlap: it's better to fly the stock game, while it's better to look at, and to listen to, the mod games.

There should be a compromise IMHO, on TD's side as well. The mod community should accept that TD is serving as a 'quality filter', while TD should implement much, much more from the high quality part of mods. Sounds and some visual effects are likely candidates IMHO, as well as retextured stock objects and some new ones. And I simply can't understand why we couldn't have at least a fraction of the new maps made by modders. I don't beleive they are all just crap...

[KG26_Alpha]

One of the main reasons for people wanting mods was for the sound.

Now I have a good knowledge of the history of IL2's sound engine the reasons for it and the way its was compromised some time ago.

Now not to dwell on the fact that for me the sound engines been ok due to the fact I never used onboard sound devices but high end sound cards/speakers/headphones.

Security has been the ideology whilst flying online back in Olegs day, and IL2 did a good job of it, all the Aces from other sims suddenly disappeared when IL2 came out as all files were secure and the sound engine was locked down.

Some thing that might be able to be done is to have a switch in the GUI for the Host/Server to allow modded sounds out side of the games sound generator.

So if I want to host a CooP that allows mods sounds I can select a switch to allow users to fly with stock version with modded sounds.

And if I want a totally locked down CooP mission select the switch to default sound.

This would probably be a great improvement for a lot of users and not require them to have to use mod packs just for the game sounds.

.

[Jones]

Originally Posted by sniperton

And I simply can't understand why we couldn't have at least a fraction of the new maps made by modders. I don't beleive they are all just crap...

Read up on intelectual property law to know why everything produced by the Mod community is unusable by TD. What the moders rarely seem to understand is that they are actually operating outside of the law! These issues will not go away as there are too many parties and vested interests involved to ever make it legal. What we have is the best of what we'll ever get.

[Cloyd]

Originally Posted by Jones

Read up on intelectual property law to know why everything produced by the Mod community is unusable by TD. What the moders rarely seem to understand is that they are actually operating outside of the law! These issues will not go away as there are too many parties and vested interests involved to ever make it legal. What we have is the best of what we'll ever get.

You do realize that the Solomons map, which is now oficially incorporated, was made by a MOD team?

Cloyd

[Bearcat]

Originally Posted by TinyTim

I still clearly remember numerous "It was fun while it lasted" comments back when it broke out that IL-2 had been "hacked" years ago.

So do I .. quite well.. and while I still think that the potential disaster that so many expected (myself included initially if any of you remember the details), was indeed a very real possibility based on historical experience in this genre across several platforms.. In the end they proved unfounded. Yes the mods did change the sim, and for a while there it was pretty bad, but even then it was not the "badness" that so many of us anticipated. I never saw a substantial rise in cheats... nothing on the order of what was seen in other sims, and while the compatibility, or should I say incompatibility issues did and still do a lot to deter some from fully enjoying the sim IMO it has settled down quite a bit and if you want to have fun in this sim you can... stock or modded. People who left the community and have not come back either got other interests or do not fully understand what we now have.

IMO if this sim had not been hacked it would be farther along the road to retirement than it is now. Let's face it .. for a 10+ year old product .. it is still getting new users almost daily if some of the forum posts on this and other boards are to be believed. This is IMO a direct result of mods and the whole dynamic that that fact brought to the sim. Would there even be a TD if not for mods? Would Oleg stll be here isf the sim had not gotten hacked? We don't know.. From what we were told 5 or so years ago.. the plan was to stop support for IL2 and concentrate on BoB.. so if the sim had not been modded where would it be now? Consider the stock sounds, textures.. maps and most importantly options from the circa 2005-2006 period and what we were told by Oleg about his plans and consider what we'd have now if it had not been for mods.

Yes .. some are crap.. but IMO TD is doing a great job of incorporating much from mods into the sim... and 4.11.1 would not be what it is if not for mods. I also think that for better or worse ... for those of us who are still here, we are still here not so much because mods are good or bad but because the sim is still enjoyable.. That whole I can't find a server because of mods nonsense is nonsense.. and if many of the folks who feel that way came back EVEN IF THEY CHOSE TO FLY STOCK ONLY .. It would be a good thing for the sim. I like having more options.. but as I always say.. I like to have my options tailored to as close to what the stock sim is doing as possible and the quickest way to loose me as far as mods go is to say that you are "branching out on your own" ..

Originally Posted by sniperton

Agreed. But some selected objects/planes/maps, better sounds and visual effects wouldn't hurt either, provided they are of high quality. Now the problem is that TD goes one way (e.g. AI -- that's good), while the modding community goes another (more effects, more this and that -- and that's not bad either). Both approaches have produced some really excellent stuff, but they hardly overlap: it's better to fly the stock game, while it's better to look at, and to listen to, the mod games.

There should be a compromise IMHO, on TD's side as well. The mod community should accept that TD is serving as a 'quality filter', while TD should implement much, much more from the high quality part of mods. Sounds and some visual effects are likely candidates IMHO, as well as retextured stock objects and some new ones. And I simply can't understand why we couldn't have at least a fraction of the new maps made by modders. I don't beleive they are all just crap...

I agree with much of this but some of it just will not happen.. does anyone remembe the great reconciliation? Remember before the compressor or whatever it was .. that let modders compress their sfs files was made abvailable? This was around the time that the whole UP/SAS/AAA/HSFX unification thing was being talked about.. before that it would take as long as 3.5 minutes for the sim to just load because of the mods.. imagine trying to join a coop where everyone took that long five or take a minute in either direction to load.. it was a nightmare.. but that "unification" never happened.. the closest thing to it was when two mod groups sort of merged.. and that entity is now more... compliant .. for lack of a better term to the standards set down by the "official" modders ... but the one world kumbaya modland never emerged.. and it won't ever.. as long as some people think that they know "the correct XXXXX" for any part of the sim. I have my choices.. but for me the latest TD version is and will always be the ultimate determination of what mods use.

[RPS69]

Bearcat, +10!!!

Good post!

The only thing that would be nice is to merge the SEOW interface on the TD pack. Not the flying characteristics, but the online war interface.