Inaccurate performance data for BOB fighters in COD comparing to RL data

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by Glider

You and I both know that this is the question you have not given a reply too, since you said 145 aircraft in May as per Pips. Someone you haven't mentioned for a while now

Speak in you own name only and do put words into my mouth. It has proven pointless to answer you 'questions', to which you do not know the answer yourself. You have shown that you ignore the answer, ask the same question a few days, month, years later, and pretend you have not seen the answer earlier. As said, I have already answer that at the beginning of the thread.

I am tired of your pointless mind games.

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

Speak in you own name only and do put words into my mouth. It has proven pointless to answer you 'questions', to which you do not know the answer yourself. You have shown that you ignore the answer, ask the same question a few days, month, years later, and pretend you have not seen the answer earlier. As said, I have already answer that at the beginning of the thread.

I am tired of your pointless mind games.

Priceless

[Crumpp]

we do know that the changes were already in place so a number of the 700 would already have them.

Glider, the document does not say the Merlin engine has been produced with the changes in place, it says the NEWER ENGINES will already have the modifications.

That sentence could mean:

1. That could mean all existing merlin engines from ~mid april 1940 or so would have the changes incorporated in production. Along with those production engines a maintenance stock of the new parts would have to be produced. That is a massive production undertaking and would take some time to implement.

2. It could also mean the NEWER production engines, ie the Merlin IIX would incorporate the changes in their design. That makes the most sense and is exactly what we see in the Operating Notes!!!

Production priority would go to the newer designs and older ones would be upgraded over time on a schedule that the manufacturer could meet. We do see that schedule listed as older models will be upgraded during their service maintenance.

Production resources are not infinite. The Spitfire Mk II was coming online and expected to replace the Spitfire Mk I. The Operating Notes are very clear in the fact 100 Octane was the only fuel approved for the Mk II.

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Glider, the document does not say the Merlin engine has been produced with the changes in place, it says the NEWER ENGINES will already have the modifications.

That sentence could mean:

1. That could mean all existing merlin engines from ~mid april 1940 or so would have the changes incorporated in production. Along with those production engines a maintenance stock of the new parts would have to be produced. That is a massive production undertaking and would take some time to implement.

2. It could also mean the NEWER production engines, ie the Merlin IIX would incorporate the changes in their design. That makes the most sense and is exactly what we see in the Operating Notes!!!

Production priority would go to the newer designs and older ones would be upgraded over time on a schedule that the manufacturer could meet. We do see that schedule listed as older models will be upgraded during their service maintenance.

Production resources are not infinite. The Spitfire Mk II was coming online and expected to replace the Spitfire Mk I. The Operating Notes are very clear in the fact 100 Octane was the only fuel approved for the Mk II.

There goes your word again could. It could mean this and it could mean that.
We know from station, squadron and combat reports, backed up by a number of documents, histories, personal stories, that SPit 1 did use 100 Octane in the BOB. . How can you ignore this!!
Lets not forget the Hurricane and Defiant which had the same engine or are you saying that they didn't use 100 octane either!!!
So I believe it means what it says, that the newer production engines have the changes built into them.

Edit I also note that the paper outlining the changes says that the changes are already incorporated into the servicing. As we can safely assume that Spit II's are not in service in March 1940, if it isn't SPitfire I and Hurricane's which according to your theory didn't use 100 Octane, what do you think they are making the changes too?

[Crumpp]

SPitfire I and Hurricane's which according to your theory didn't use 100 Octane

Glider,

Where in the world do you think I am claiming that Spitfire Mk I and eventually Hurricanes not use 100 Octane? They did not have 16 squadrons worth of Spitfire Mk II's by September.

It is in the Operating Notes that they were capable if equipped.

Crumpp says:
The statement "all Fighter Command was using 100 Octane July 1940" is not backed up by the facts.

The statement "100 Octane was used during the Battle of Britain" is correct and backed up by the facts.

It is clear that Fighter Command was in process of adopting the fuel but it is equally clear that process was not complete in July 1940. There is no agreement on the end dates for the Battle of Britain. So, depending on the dates one chooses for the battle to end, the process was or was not completed during the battle itself.

Crumpp says:
Production priority would go to the newer designs and older ones would be upgraded over time on a schedule that the manufacturer could meet. We do see that schedule listed as older models will be upgraded during their service maintenance.

Production resources are not infinite.

The above explains the process, it does not eliminate the Spitfire Mk I from using 100 Octane.

Edit I also note that the paper outlining the changes says that the changes are already incorporated into the servicing.

It says they are being done AS service maintenance. It is not a modification that is done by the squadron maintenance personnel. That is telling you the modification will happen the next time the aircraft goes for Service Inspection.

There are three modifications that add .020 inches to the spigot depth of the cylinder head top joint. The Service level maintenance personnel can choose which method of compliance meets their needs based on the parts on hand.

1. Modification Number Merlin/64 (requires no new piston rings)

2. Modification Number Merlin/77 (requires NEWLY designed piston rings to be installed)

3. Modification Number Merlin/138 - This is the one being done by the factory on NEWER engines.

Crumpp says:
It could also mean the NEWER production engines, ie the Merlin IIX would incorporate the changes in their design.

Refers to Modification Number Merlin/138. The other two modifications ARE NOT being done by Rolls Royce production. They or their subcontractors are only producing the parts to accomplish the modification No. Merlin/64 and Merlin/77 to the aircraft in service as well as the maintence stock required. The work is being done as service level maintenance.

[Al Schlageter]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Glider,

Where in the world do you think I am claiming that Spitfire Mk I and eventually Hurricanes not use 100 Octane? They did not have 16 squadrons worth of Spitfire Mk II's by September.

Now it is Spitfire IIs.

Spitfire IIs did not appear til around July, so it had to be Spitfire Is and Hurricanes. You spent pages and pages worth of posts deniging the use of 12lb boost and 100 fuel. Is this your way of admitting you were wrong?