Inaccurate performance data for BOB fighters in COD comparing to RL data

[winny]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

While "pulling the plug" was used to express 100 Octane, it really just means they gave it all the engine has got.

So now it's about the definition of pulling the plug?

Really?

[Al Schlageter]

Originally Posted by winny

So now it's about the definition of pulling the plug?

Really?

LOL, the 'song and dance routine' is changed, again. Anything to not admit being wrong.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by Al Schlageter

LOL, the 'song and dance routine' is changed, again. Anything to not admit being wrong.

Crump doing what Crump does best..

[robtek]

People trying to disparage someone, are doing it to themself in reality!

[Crumpp]

Here is the results:

referecnes to +12 Lb and/or 100 octance
602 squadron: February 1940 - photo of squadron aircraft in in pre-BoB paint with 100 written on the fuseage + squad operations book entry on 16/2
54 Squadron: May 1940 - combat report from colin gray on 24/5 & AL Deere Combat report 26/5
19 Squadron: May 1950 - combat report from flt Lt Lane 26/5
610 Squadron: July 1940 - photo of 100 fuel bowser refuelling A/C
41 Squadron: June 1940 - combat report Flt Lt Webster 19/6
64 Squadron: August 1940 - combat report from P/O Donahue
72 Squadron: September 1940 - Combat report from P/O Elliot 9/9

References to Boost Cut out/ emergency boost/ "gate"
74 Squadron: May 1940 - combat report from P/O Freeborn 24/5
611 squadron: June 1940 - combat report from P/O Brown 2/6
610 Squadron: June 1940 - combat report order to "gate" 12/6
616 Squadron: August 1940 - combat report from F/O Dundas 15/8
603 SQuadron: August 1940 - combat report from P/O Morton 28/6
152 Squadron: September 1940 - combat report from P/O Hall on 4/9
66 Squadron: September 1940 - combat report from F/O Oxsrping 6/9
234 Squadron: August OR September 1940 - recollections from P/O Doe
92 Squadron: September 1940 - recollections from Goeffrey Wellum

reference to high boost (+10 LB)
602 Squadron: August 1940 - combat report from Flt Lt Boyd 18/6

Good Stuff....

By July it shows ~8 Squadrons and I imagine some of those squadrons are operating Spitfire Mk II's.

August adds another 5 Squadrons and by sometime in September, a full 16 squadrons online as researched by Morgan and Shacklady.

According to the RAF estabilishment by September there were 33 squadrons of Hurricanes and 19 Squadrons of Spitfires.

[NZtyphoon]

Originally Posted by pstyle

.

The list is not exhasutive and simply indicates the first date at which I can find various references. I have grouped these by the type of reference, from explicit mentions of particular boost or octanes (in photos or reports), down to mentions of "gate" or "emergency power/ boost cut out" which are almost as persuasive as direct references to the use of the 100 fuels. I am going to continue researching this to see if I can find further evidence/ data that indicates at a minimum the "in-use-by" date for the various squadrons.

Here is the results:

referecnes to +12 Lb and/or 100 octance
602 squadron: February 1940 - photo of squadron aircraft in in pre-BoB paint with 100 written on the fuseage + squad operations book entry on 16/2
54 Squadron: May 1940 - combat report from colin gray on 24/5 & AL Deere Combat report 26/5
19 Squadron: May 1950 - combat report from flt Lt Lane 26/5
610 Squadron: July 1940 - photo of 100 fuel bowser refuelling A/C
41 Squadron: June 1940 - combat report Flt Lt Webster 19/6
64 Squadron: August 1940 - combat report from P/O Donahue
72 Squadron: September 1940 - Combat report from P/O Elliot 9/9

References to Boost Cut out/ emergency boost/ "gate"
74 Squadron: May 1940 - combat report from P/O Freeborn 24/5
611 squadron: June 1940 - combat report from P/O Brown 2/6
610 Squadron: June 1940 - combat report order to "gate" 12/6
616 Squadron: August 1940 - combat report from F/O Dundas 15/8
603 SQuadron: August 1940 - combat report from P/O Morton 28/6
152 Squadron: September 1940 - combat report from P/O Hall on 4/9
66 Squadron: September 1940 - combat report from F/O Oxsrping 6/9
234 Squadron: August OR September 1940 - recollections from P/O Doe
92 Squadron: September 1940 - recollections from Goeffrey Wellum

reference to high boost (+10 LB)
602 Squadron: August 1940 - combat report from Flt Lt Boyd 18/6

I am not sure how many of the above are spitfire squadrons, but there are 16 Squadrons listed there (610 is listed twice, as I located references in two categories). I understand there are only 19 Spitfire squadrons which have battle honours for the BoB.

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Good Stuff....

By July it shows ~8 Squadrons and I imagine some of those squadrons are operating Spitfire Mk II's.

August adds another 5 Squadrons and by sometime in September, a full 16 squadrons online as researched by Morgan and Shacklady.

According to the RAF estabilishment by September there were 33 squadrons of Hurricanes and 19 Squadrons of Spitfires.

The first unit to use Spitfire IIs was 611 Sqn starting in August, as was established back here

Originally Posted by JtD

There are also records for useage of boost cut out or 12 lbs for the following squadrons, as can be found here:

111, 151 - Feb 1940
1, 3, 17, 56, 73, 79, 85, 87, 229, 245 - May 1940
43 - June 1940
145 - July 1940
249, 303 - September 1940

plus add 11 Hurricane squadrons
17, 56, 73, 79, 87, 85, 151, 229, 245 Sqns May,

145 Sqn, July,

1 Sqn. August,

43 Sqn June

That makes 18 squadrons Feb-July another 6 in August...oops! that equals 24 in August plus another eight September = 32 squadrons. Why that's exactly twice as many squadrons than Morgan and Shacklady tssk tssk tssk.
Breakdown = 15 Spitfire, 17 Hurricane

[Al Schlageter]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Good Stuff....

By July it shows ~8 Squadrons and I imagine some of those squadrons are operating Spitfire Mk II's.

August adds another 5 Squadrons and by sometime in September, a full 16 squadrons online as researched by Morgan and Shacklady.

According to the RAF estabilishment by September there were 33 squadrons of Hurricanes and 19 Squadrons of Spitfires.

I posted this list before:

By Month

No. 32 Squadron pre BoB H
No. 92 (East India) Squadron pre BoB S
No. 111 Squadron pre BoB H
No. 151 Squadron Feb 1940 H
No. 602 (City of Glasgow) Squadron pre BoB S
No. 609 (West Riding) Squadron pre BoB S
No. 611 (West Lancashire) Squadron pre BoB S

No. 1 (Cawnpore) Squadron May 1940 H
No. 3 Squadron May 1940 H
No. 17 Squadron May 1940 H
No. 19 Squadron May 1940 S
No. 54 Squadron May 1940 S
No. 74 Squadron May 1940 S
No. 56 (Punjab) Squadron May 1940 H
No. 73 Squadron May 1940 H
No. 79 (Madras Presidency) Squadron May 1940 H
No. 85 Squadron May 1940 H
No. 87 (United Provinces) Squadron May 1940 H
No. 229 Squadron May 1940 H

No. 43 (China-British) Squadron June 1940 H
No. 41 Squadron June 1940 S
No. 610 (County of Chester) Squadron June 1940 S

No. 145 Squadron July 1940 H

No. 64 Squadron 5 Aug 1940
No. 65 (East India) Squadron 12 Aug 1940 S
No. 234 (Madras Presidency) Squadron 18 Aug 1940 S
No. 603 (City of Edinburgh) Squadron 31 Aug 1940 S
No. 616 (South Yorkshire) Squadron 15 Aug 1940 S

No. 66 Squadron 6 Sept 1940 S
No. 152 (Hyderabad) Squadron 4 Sept 1940 S
No. 249 (Gold Coast) Squadron 6 Sept 1940 H
No. 303 Polish Fighter Squadron 9 Sept 1940 H

It is not complete, so if any one wants to add, please do. It was compiled using pilot reports and squadron logs easily found on the internet.

It is only for Hurricane and Spitfire squadrons. Not listed is other squadrons with Merlin powered a/c.

Here is a list of the squadrons for the BoB:

No. 1 (Cawnpore) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 3 Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 17 Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 19 Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 23 Squadron - Bristol Blenheim
No. 25 Squadron - Bristol Blenheim and Bristol Beaufighter
No. 29 Squadron - Bristol Blenheim and Bristol Beaufighter
No. 32 Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 41 Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 43 (China-British) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 46 (Uganda) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 54 Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 56 (Punjab) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 64 Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 65 (East India) Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 66 Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 72 (Basutoland) Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 73 Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 74 Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 79 (Madras Presidency) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 85 Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 87 (United Provinces) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 92 (East India) Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 111 Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 141 Squadron - Boulton Paul Defiant
No. 145 Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 151 Squadron - Hawker Hurricane and Boulton Paul Defiant
No. 152 (Hyderabad) Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 213 (Ceylon) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 219 (Mysore) Squadron - Bristol Blenheim and Bristol Beaufighter
No. 222 (Natal) Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 229 Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 232 Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 234 (Madras Presidency) Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 235 Squadron - Bristol Blenheim
No. 236 Squadron - Bristol Blenheim
No. 238 Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 242 (Canadian) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 245 (Northern Rhodesia) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 247 (China - British) Squadron - Gloster Gladiator
No. 248 Squadron - Bristol Blenheim
No. 249 (Gold Coast) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 253 (Hyderabad) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 257 (Burma) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 263 (Fellowship of the Bellows) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 264 (Madras Presidency) Squadron - Boulton Paul Defiant
No. 266 (Rhodesia) Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 302 Polish Fighter Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 303 Polish Fighter Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 310 Czechoslovak Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 312 Czechoslovak Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 401 Canadian Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 501 (County of Gloucester) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 504 (City of Nottingham) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 600 (City of London) Squadron - Bristol Blenheim and Bristol Beaufighter
No. 601 (County of London) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 602 (City of Glasgow) Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 603 (City of Edinburgh) Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 604 (County of Middlesex) Squadron - Bristol Blenheim and Bristol Beaufighter
No. 605 (County of Warwick) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 607 (County of Durham) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 609 (West Riding) Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 610 (County of Chester) Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 611 (West Lancashire) Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 615 (County of Surrey) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 616 (South Yorkshire) Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 804 Naval Air Squadron - Fairey Fulmar
No. 808 Naval Air Squadron - Fairey Fulmar

[NZtyphoon]

Originally Posted by Al Schlageter

I posted this list before:

By Month

No. 32 Squadron pre BoB H
No. 92 (East India) Squadron pre BoB S
No. 111 Squadron pre BoB H
No. 151 Squadron Feb 1940 H
No. 602 (City of Glasgow) Squadron pre BoB S
No. 609 (West Riding) Squadron pre BoB S
No. 611 (West Lancashire) Squadron pre BoB S

No. 1 (Cawnpore) Squadron May 1940 H
No. 3 Squadron May 1940 H
No. 17 Squadron May 1940 H
No. 19 Squadron May 1940 S
No. 54 Squadron May 1940 S
No. 74 Squadron May 1940 S
No. 56 (Punjab) Squadron May 1940 H
No. 73 Squadron May 1940 H
No. 79 (Madras Presidency) Squadron May 1940 H
No. 85 Squadron May 1940 H
No. 87 (United Provinces) Squadron May 1940 H
No. 229 Squadron May 1940 H

No. 43 (China-British) Squadron June 1940 H
No. 41 Squadron June 1940 S
No. 610 (County of Chester) Squadron June 1940 S

No. 145 Squadron July 1940 H

No. 64 Squadron 5 Aug 1940
No. 65 (East India) Squadron 12 Aug 1940 S
No. 234 (Madras Presidency) Squadron 18 Aug 1940 S
No. 603 (City of Edinburgh) Squadron 31 Aug 1940 S
No. 616 (South Yorkshire) Squadron 15 Aug 1940 S

No. 66 Squadron 6 Sept 1940 S
No. 152 (Hyderabad) Squadron 4 Sept 1940 S
No. 249 (Gold Coast) Squadron 6 Sept 1940 H
No. 303 Polish Fighter Squadron 9 Sept 1940 H

It is not complete, so if any one wants to add, please do. It was compiled using pilot reports and squadron logs easily found on the internet.

It is only for Hurricane and Spitfire squadrons. Not listed is other squadrons with Merlin powered a/c.

That makes 18 squadrons Feb-July another 6 in August...oops! that equals 24 in August plus another eight September = 32 squadrons. Why that's exactly twice as many squadrons than Morgan and Shacklady tssk tssk tssk.
Breakdown = 15 Spitfire, 17 Hurricane

Ah ha! + 1 Defiant Squadron:
264 Sqn Welsh 29May40.pdf

so-er-19 Squadrons Feb-July + 6 August + 8 September = 33 squadrons - 17 more than specified by the May '39 paper and repeated by Morgan and Shacklady and Crumpp.

[winny]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Good Stuff....

By July it shows ~8 Squadrons and I imagine some of those squadrons are operating Spitfire Mk II's.

August adds another 5 Squadrons and by sometime in September, a full 16 squadrons online as researched by Morgan and Shacklady.

According to the RAF estabilishment by September there were 33 squadrons of Hurricanes and 19 Squadrons of Spitfires.

Morgan and Shacklady's quoting of the pre-war meeting is just that. A quote from a pre war meeting. There are a few things mentioned in that meeting which simply didn't happen. Most obviously the projected consumption figure of 10,000 tons per annum. This must have changed between the meeting and the BoB. Records from the time show that there were 5,000 tons of 100 oct in France as part of the BEF. They only operated Hurricanes in France so why the need for the fuel?

The other obvious 'thing that changed' is the reserve figure of 800,000. If you read the Oil Position meeting notes that I posted you'll notice that this figure was projected for 1943.

Add into that the fact that nobody thought war was going to happen until at least 1941 when the M&S quote was written, and you begin to see how unreliable a document written in March '39 is when trying to use it as proof for something that happened 10 months later. So if the reserve figure and the consumption figure are incorrect, what makes you think that the 16 squadrons is correct?

Happily I've requested the full set of these meeting notes from the National Archive from '38 to '41. That should clear this 16 squadrons thing up. Then you can go back to the pilots notes.

[Crumpp]

Unfortunately the study of history works that way.

Pstyle,

I was refering to fact a military fuel must carry a specification approved by that organization.

It will not become the standard fuel without a full specification. The completion of the specification IS the process of adoption. A provisional specification gets it into the system so it can be tested.

Understand?