109 elevator trim

[Osprey]

Originally Posted by VO101_Tom

Ok then. I did not remember that.
Is not working as it should? This means that I lost the thread somewhere
There is ticket on the bugtracker about this issue?

I don't think there is a ticket. The point of this thread, for me, was to clarify the issue. According to what has been discovered there certainly is an issue but I would leave it to a 109 driver to write it up as a bug to be fixed, this would obvious need to include details on what the setting should be and how it should behave.

You've done a few 109 issues Tom, is this one for you perhaps??

I also think that there needs to be some research into the Spitfire and Hurricane trims too, although perhaps nobody has complained really because they are already better turners so it isn't needed (exception of when the trim is used as per the original point of the thread)

[Crumpp]

Actually, no idea. Could you explain please? Does that mean the controls DON'T get heavy at speed?

It means the aircraft has precise trim control input. It is already stable.

The stability is one of the reasons for the higher control forces. The high elevator control forces is a function of the "stick force per G" of the control design. It is way beyond the scope of a gaming forum to adequately explain stability and control.

I will try and explain it so you get the basic idea.

There is a point in the aircraft's balance that is called the neutral point. If our center of gravity was placed at this point, the aircraft would have no tendency to return to last condition of trim. It would be neutral and continue in whatever direction we told it too. It would also require no force at all to move the stick, only the resistance from the hinge moments.

Do you know the law of levers; it is the basis for all Stability and control? It says that at the fulcrum, two moments or torque force of the levers will be equal.

Our basic formula for determing the torque force:

Moment = Arm x weight

Weight is the weight of the object or amount of force we place on the arm.

Arm is the distance from the Neutral Point in the case of stability.

Moment is the torque force required to move about the nuetral point.

The distance between our center of gravity and our neutral point determines the stability of the aircraft. The longer our arm or farther away we are from the neutral point, the more torque force we generate to return to last trimmed condition of flight. WTE_Galloway was correct in his explaination.
Understand?

Neutral stability, for the most part, is not good in an aircraft. Neutrally stable aircraft are "twitchy" and difficult to precisely control. Stable aircraft are easier to precisely manuver but come at the cost of higher input forces. The only axis Neutral stability is considered acceptable is lateral. Wings inhernetly have a considerable amount of roll stability.

Unstable is even worse and does require modern fly by wire controls to safely fly the aircraft. Most WWII fighters were just barely stable.

Now is above corner speed, you want a high stick force per G gradiant. It keeps the pilot safe by ensuring he does not destroy the airframe.

[Crumpp]

It means the aircraft has precise trim control input. It is already stable.

Just to clarify, trim forces will change over the range of an airfoils angle of attack. In general, for every speed there is a specific trim setting.

I am not saying the Bf-109 does not require trim input. There is a very tenious connection. It is entirely possible to have an unstable aircraft that trims very positively just as it is possible to have a stable aircraft that cannot be trimmed.

[VO101_Tom]

Originally Posted by Osprey

I don't think there is a ticket. The point of this thread, for me, was to clarify the issue. According to what has been discovered there certainly is an issue but I would leave it to a 109 driver to write it up as a bug to be fixed, this would obvious need to include details on what the setting should be and how it should behave.

You've done a few 109 issues Tom, is this one for you perhaps??

I also think that there needs to be some research into the Spitfire and Hurricane trims too, although perhaps nobody has complained really because they are already better turners so it isn't needed (exception of when the trim is used as per the original point of the thread)

Hi. I didn't really understand, what was the exact problem with the 109's trim (I asked the Bugreport, that I read the summary there ). The tight turning is not problem if the speed dropped quickly. When you using the trimm, the 109's structure allow the tighter turn, than without trimm (only the end positions), because the whole stabilizer moves, so it generates more force (not only reducing the stick force, like ordinary trim). But this is not recommended, because drop all the energy very fast, and the trimm wheel moving slow (I mean, compare to Il-2. I have no problem the trimm's or Flap's speed in Clod ). If the enemy shaking the stick, you can't follow

I can not help with RAF types, I have only pilot's manual (no technical info, only aircraft handling and performance)

[Osprey]

Originally Posted by VO101_Tom

Hi. I didn't really understand, what was the exact problem with the 109's trim (I asked the Bugreport, that I read the summary there ). The tight turning is not problem if the speed dropped quickly. When you using the trimm, the 109's structure allow the tighter turn, than without trimm (only the end positions), because the whole stabilizer moves, so it generates more force (not only reducing the stick force, like ordinary trim). But this is not recommended, because drop all the energy very fast, and the trimm wheel moving slow (I mean, compare to Il-2. I have no problem the trimm's or Flap's speed in Clod ). If the enemy shaking the stick, you can't follow

I can not help with RAF types, I have only pilot's manual (no technical info, only aircraft handling and performance)

I had asked if 109 drivers were using trim to gain more lead and if so was this accurate to RL. From reading the thread I think there are 2 potential issues:

1. That presently the 109 does not require trim to be pulled out of a high speed dive. In RL trim would have to be set prior to the dive in order to pull out.
2. The trim wheel in game moves too quickly compared to how a RL pilot could make adjustments (there are answers and videos in the thread). Some O/L pilots are using this to gain lead quickly, which is unrealistic.

I suggested that a 109 expert validate the information gathered in order to make the 109 more accurate via the bugtracker.

I do not know if the same problem occurs in RAF fighters however I suspect this would not be required given that they already have the turn advantage.

Does that make sense? ~S~