Crusaders AD 2012

[AndyJWest]

"Do we want them to be well oiled, highly motivated, dedicated hard-core killing machines..." Nope. Anyone who dumps their morality when putting on the uniform of a soldier is unfit to serve. (And before you ask, no I haven't - but I've seen the results on those who do, and what it does to them, never mind what it does to the enemy: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1758301.stm)

As for claiming to trace your lineage back to Crusaders, yeah, right...

[WTE_Galway]

Actually the The Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon, more commonly known as the Templars, are an interesting choice as ...

1) they were declared heretical in France and officially disbanded by the church in 1312. They were not exactly exalted heroes of Christendom towards the end.

2) unlike the Hospitallers, who left a humanitarian legacy in the form of St John's ambulance, the Templars were the worlds first corporate bankers, and the first to use control of money to manipulate politics ... which led to their eventual downfall.


To be honest the people who can truly trace their lineage back to the Knights Templar are not the American Marine Corp, it is Goldman Sachs.

[AndyJWest]

Yup. What does history tell us about the Crusades? A series of ridiculous military adventures with no clear goal, no prior understanding of the 'enemy', and no obvious motivation other than as a distraction from domestic problems? You guessed it...

[Oldschool61]

Originally Posted by AndyJWest

Yup. What does history tell us about the Crusades? A series of ridiculous military adventures with no clear goal, no prior understanding of the 'enemy', and no obvious motivation other than as a distraction from domestic problems? You guessed it...

Actually the crusades were more of a genocide type battle on both sides. To groups of delusional people worshiping space gods who think theres is best.

[CWMV]

Ha! Quite right about the banking reference. I did not mean to say the Templar's specifically, but rather men on the ground fighting for a cause. From the modern day to the minutemen at Lexington and Concord to Grog the cave man with club in hand. All have a common lineage in that they are men, with their weapons, fighting for whatever cause at hand and the men at their left and right.

As to morality, well that depends on your point of view. It looks very different from the trenches.
You must remember that before all other concerns the driving force is mission accomplishment.
I believe your operating from a standpoint that is is immoral to kill, and to be good at it. In reality for some its just a job description. A rifleman that cant kill the enemy is as useful as a warm bucket of spit. We need the medic to tend wounds, and the supply clerk to get us beans and bullets. We also need them to be motivated and driven to do their job to the utter best of their abilities else others down the line will suffer. For the grunt that means being a highly motivated soldier dedicated to accomplishing the mission, and his mission is... "The Infantry closes with the enemy by means of fire and maneuver in order to destroy or capture him or to repel his assault by fire, close combat, and counterattack."
There is nothing nice about this, and nor is there anything immoral.

Just remember that nothing is absolute, including morality.
For that matter as a squad leader it would be immoral of me to take a soldier into combat that wasn't highly motivated, dedicated, and hard as wood pecker lips willing to do what he had to to accomplish the mission.

EDIT 2: Furthermore...lol...that's the reason behind the lineage, and the history, and the patches and the chest pounding. Its just flat motivation. We compare ourselves to those that went before us and try to live up to the standard they set. For us it was the 11B's in Vietnam, for them it was the grunts at Chosin and Omaha Beach, for them the men at the Marne, etc etc all the way back to those valiant crusaders, who did what they had to do fir their god, King and Country.

[AndyJWest]

"before all other concerns the driving force is mission accomplishment." Exactly. You aren't fighting for any other reason than that you have been ordered to. Why?

[CWMV]

If you cant, or I assume more accurately wont understand that then you simply have no base upon which to intelligently discuss military matters.

"I, ----- do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

See to me these words are as close to Holy as you can get. Not much room in there for discourse. I am a servant of my country, first and foremost. I take pride in my service, and in the men that I served with. When my nation calls on me to fight I don't ask why, I surrendered that right when I knowingly singed on the dotted line. I simply grab my rifle, rally my troops and go where I'm told, and do what mission is there waiting for me.

As to "why" people do it, well those reasons are varied. Some do it out of familial tradition, some because they want the college money. I joined because I wanted to serve my country, plain and simple. You don't serve your country, in the military anyway, by questioning orders.
But again if you wont understand that then I'm just typing at a wall...

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by WTE_Galway

Actually the The Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon, more commonly known as the Templars, are an interesting choice as ...

1) they were declared heretical in France and officially disbanded by the church in 1312. They were not exactly exalted heroes of Christendom towards the end.

2) unlike the Hospitallers, who left a humanitarian legacy in the form of St John's ambulance, the Templars were the worlds first corporate bankers, and the first to use control of money to manipulate politics ... which led to their eventual downfall.


To be honest the people who can truly trace their lineage back to the Knights Templar are not the American Marine Corp, it is Goldman Sachs.

in a way..

The Church did grant The Templars exoneration from all forms of payment to the Church (even the obligatory Tithing), at their inception, in return for doing the Church's land grabbing in The Holy Lands.
The real problems arouse when the Church wanted to get its (fair share) hands on the huge amount of wealth amassed by the Templars in their trophy runs

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

in a way..

The Church did grant The Templars exoneration from all forms of payment to the Church (even the obligatory Tithing), at their inception, in return for doing the Church's land grabbing in The Holy Lands.
The real problems arouse when the Church wanted to get its (fair share) hands on the huge amount of wealth amassed by the Templars in their trophy runs

Not so much the church, but the french King, who also was massivly indebted to the Templars and who had the Pope in his pockets.

[raaaid]

wasnt vietanam war extended so the general motors flourished?

usa makes the best weapons, weapons is number one bussines in the world and there are wars all over

this money gets invested in oil

and then this gets invested in drugs so a plant gets its value multiplied 1000000x

sounds like good bussiness to me but well that if you like printed paper

well but this was what i thought wehn i was 18 now i stimate 99% of the world pouplation have acces to time travel and stages the world for the other 1%, the untouchable by the force of paradox

this video is pure political actuallity:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wz1KLnjKDM