Friday Update, April 13, 2012

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by Martin77

Me 109 E:
"During what was later called the 'Battle of Britain', we flew the Messerschmitt Bf109E. The essential difference from the Spitfire Mark I flown at that time by the RAF was that the Spitfire was less manoeuvrable in the rolling plane. With its shorter wings (2 metres less wingspan) and its square-tipped wings, the Bf 109 was more manoeuvrable and slightly faster. (It is of interest that the English later on clipped the wings of the Spitfire.)
For us, the more experienced pilots, real manoeuvring only started when the slats were out. For this reason it is possible to find pilots from that period (1940) who will tell you that the Spitfire turned better than the Bf 109. That is not true. I myself had many dogfights with Spitfires and I could always out-turn them. This is how I shot down six of them."
- Erwin Leykauf, German fighter pilot, 33 victories. Source: Messerschmitt Bf109 ja Saksan Sotatalous by Hannu Valtonen; Hurricane & Messerschmitt, Chaz Bowyer and Armand Van Ishoven.

Me 109 E:
"Personally, I met RAF over Dunkirk. [During this] battle not a single Spitfire or Hurricane turned tighter than my plane. I found that the Bf 109 E was faster, possessed a higher rate of climb, but was somewhat less manouverable than the RAF fighters. Nevertheless, during the campaign, no Spitfire or Hurricane ever turned inside my plane, and after the war the RAF admitted the loss of 450 Hurricanes and Spitfires during the Battle of France." In the desert there were only a few Spitfires, and we were afraid of those because of their reputation from the Battle of Britain. But after we shot a couple of them down, our confusion was gone."
- Herbert Kaiser, German fighter ace. 68 victories.

"Unexperienced pilots hesitated to turn tight, bacause the plane shook violently when the slats deployed. I realised, though, that because of the slats the plane's stalling characteristics were much better than in comparable Allied planes that I got to fly. Even though you may doubt it, I knew it [Bf109] could manouver better in turnfight than LaGG, Yak or even Spitfire."
- Walter Wolfrum, German fighter ace. 137 victories.

Martin,

excellent post, thanks for quoting your sources directly (what text are the other 2 quotes from plz ?)

what you implied with those statements however goes directly against what the conclusions are/were from the allied comparison of those 2 aircraft performance (spitfire of BoB era vs 109), and the large amount of 1e person reports from both allied and german pilots of that era who had flown these 2 planes in combat.

if what you say was true, the german pilots would have been instructed by their superiors before flight in BoB "dont worry about ze spitfire, you are faster, can climb and turn better, and if he tries to out-turn you just put out ze slats and you always have him for sure !" , which obviously is not the case. instead i will quote you back some Galland, whom i am sure you must have high regards for and with his experience is able to give an OVERVIEW of facts regarding the 109-spitfire relationship at the time of BoB.

Adolf Galland wrote of the matchup: "the ME-109 was superior in the attack and not so suitable for purely defensive purposes as the Spitfire, which although a little slower, was much more manueuverable"

and when he was being tasked with protecting bomber formations (rather then go on free hunts where the 109's could build an advantage prior to starting an engagement).....

in a fit of frustration uttered the famous passage to Göring "I should like an outfit of Spitfires for my Squadron".

that isnt conclusive factual proof of anything, but since you are using anecdotal information from very experienced pilots, i am countering you with direct words from one of the most experienced and highest regarded german pilots of the BoB era, the master himself

the key point of those allied comparisons is that if both pilots are of equal high skill and experience level, and both can push their planes to the limit (including the german pilot w his slats out to improve low speed handling), then the spitfire should come out slightly better in turn rate

obviously an experienced 109 pilot who is confident at these near stall speeds with his slats out will be superior to an average spitfire pilot who doesnt similarly push his aircraft, but that is not the point. what we need is direct factual information of the aircraft with both pilots being equal, and then have this implemented in CoD (and documented by a program like il2 compare). once each main aircraft has its own strength/weaknesses correctly represented, we can start to recreate historical engagements online (where pilot skill and experience then becomes the dominating factor determining outcome)

[Buchon]

Guys ... there propaganda in both sides, don't fall by it.

We should navigate through it and find the true, only with that we can make the most amazing Simulator.

[moilami]

in a fit of frustration uttered the famous passage to Göring "I should like an outfit of Spitfires for my Squadron".

Hmm, maybe he used the "it's the plane, not the pilots nor tactics" excuse.

After all by whining to Göring he had a chance to influence Hitler regarding resources used to research & development of better planes.

[Verhängnis]

Perhaps he should of just joined Rudolf Hess in that 110 and flew to England for peace talks...

[Flanker35M]

S!

A very nice update thread from developers turned into a bickering fest with mud sling..once again. Can't you guys just wait for the patch and then compare the changes etc. I for sure wait for it and ready for testing with fellow virtual pilots.

[moilami]

Originally Posted by Flanker35M

S!

A very nice update thread from developers turned into a bickering fest with mud sling..once again. Can't you guys just wait for the patch and then compare the changes etc. I for sure wait for it and ready for testing with fellow virtual pilots.

Aye, it was a great update about everyone has been waiting for. Thus should be celebrated instead of whined on since after the patch IL-2 should be much better game and simulation.

[JG52Uther]

Best just to read the first ten pages or so of an update thread.
Ignore list is your friend.

[Osprey]

Originally Posted by moilami

Hmm, maybe he used the "it's the plane, not the pilots nor tactics" excuse.

After all by whining to Göring he had a chance to influence Hitler regarding resources used to research & development of better planes.

He said it to wind up Goering who was being an arse to his squadron. This is in his book "The First and the Last", and in the same paragraph he also said that of course he preferred the 109 to the Spitfire.

There's plenty of test data about turning circles to demonstrate that the Spitfire and Hurricane both out turned the 109 comfortably, not to mention the wing loading. I can't believe anybody would think otherwise tbh. You don't hear Spitfire pilots going on about how the Spitfire could outclimb the 109 do you? Despite the existence of many reports about Spitfire pilots catching up 109's in the climb and shooting them down.

[=AN=Apache]

After all, which of the two aircraft actually had a better performance? Analyzing the Dogfight itself and say that both acrfts also flown by experienced pilots.


Bf 109 or Spit? which was more shot down?

[6S.Manu]

Originally Posted by zapatista

and when he was being tasked with protecting bomber formations (rather then go on free hunts where the 109's could build an advantage prior to starting an engagement).....

Followed by:

Of course fundamentally I preferred our Me-109 to the Spitfire. But I was unbelievably vexed at the lack of understanding and the stubbornness with which the command gave us orders we could not execute - or only incompletely - as a result of many shortcomings for which we were not to blame

Martin77 posted real pilots' personal opinions while what you posted is an example of how information can be manipulated.

Originally Posted by RCAF_FB_Orville

Gentle reader, please note that this Hungarian Lunatic Kurfurt-Barbarrossa-Isegrim is an obsessive, compulsive, intellectually dishonest professional LIAR whom has been Permanently life time banned from wikipedia for a variety of offenses, including harassment, and various other flight sim and aviation forums for his habitually mendacious and calculated campaign of utterly unfounded, ridiculous revisionist bullsh*t. He is a complete and utter Menace to the cause of Truth.

Be banned from wikipedia isn't a bad thing... that site is full of BS; for example 10 minutes ago I was searching for the complete Galland's statement about the Spitfires' outfit (but at last I had to search it inside my book) and this is what you find on Galland's wikipage:

From June 1940 on, Galland flew as the Gruppenkommandeur of III./Jagdgeschwader 26 (JG 26), fighting in the Battle of Britain with Messerschmitt Bf 109 "Emils". On 19 July 1940, he was promoted to Major and JG 26 moved to the Pas de Calais, where they were to remain for the next 18 months with III./JG 26 based at Caffiers.[47]

On 24 July 1940 almost 40 Bf 109s of III./JG 26 took off for operations over the English Channel. They were met by 12 No. 54 Squadron Spitfires. The Spitfires forced the larger number of Bf 109s into a turning battle that ran down the Germans' fuel. Galland recalled being impressed by the Spitfire's ability to out-manoeuvre Bf 109s at low speed and turning on to the Bf 109s within little airspace. Only executing a "Split S"; a long curving dive that the Spitfire could not follow, could his aircraft escape back to France at low altitude. The II./Jagdgeschwader 52 covered their retreat, losing two Bf 109s to Spitfires from No. 610 Squadron. During the action, two Spitfires were shot down for the loss of four Bf 109s. Galland was shocked by the aggression shown by the relatively inexperienced and outnumbered RAF and realised there would be no quick and easy victory.[48]

The bolded part is real BS. German pilots just had to point they nose down, while the Spitfire had to make the Split S.

I don't have a fondness for any poster in this discussion, but I would like to know the reason you call K liar. Have you a "case file" about him that I can read carefully?

Because it's very easy to argue with people claiming that the Spitfire was better since "Galland wanted his outfit of it" or "better turn-time = better plane".