First fight in a 109

[Tiger27]

Even the best pilots made mistakes or had situations that meant they couldn't fly at their optimum, even if it was just an order from Goering to fly in close to the bombers , for this reason, although BnZ is the way to go in nearly all situations with a 109, it doesn't hurt to practise and prepare for those odd times when it all goes wrong, that is where the dogfight servers have a purpose, they are great for practising what to do when the sh1te hits the fan.

[Jaws2002]

If you want to take part in the actual mission, you'll have to fly a bit more dangerous to yourself and less than ideal from a fighter's tactical point of view, in order to achieve the broader strategic goals.
In the end, that's what's historical. In a real war, fighter pilots didn't fly how they liked, they flew how they were told. If they assigned your unit for close bomber escort, or protecting certain ground targets, that's what you did. If you didn't, you have a good chance to end up blindfolded with the back to a wall.

I have great respect and feel sorry for people that offer to escort my Ju-88 to the target. I know they'll most likely get shot by that swarm of Spits and Hurricanse protecting those dreaded Beaufighters on Ramsgate airfield. But if I get to blow up the target it's satisfying for all of us. Even if we all get killed.

There are many ways to get a kick out of a game. You can fly in straight lines and do only what's 100% safe, but after ten plus years of playing this series of games, to me that's boring as hell. You have to spice up your gaming experience.
Unless you try to turn from time to time with the other guys, you'll never know how good your plane turns.
I've seen this many times over the years. Many guys that fly only 100% safe, are straight up sitting ducks in a close dogfight. Usually those same guys complain a lot about their plane being "porked".
I'm a pretty bad "pilot" and can't shoot worth a damn, but even I had some success dogfighting in some of this "can't turn" fighters.
Both the FW-190 and P-47 could dogfight back in Il-2, and our Bf-109E definitely can.
It takes a bit of aggressiveness and a lot of practice, doing just that. You'll die a lot, but you'll know your plane a lot better than before. You can't expect to always be the fastest and the highest plane in the game, so you may as well train for those situations from time to time. So many times doing just that, #turning when nobody expects you to# you can surprise the other guy and get him on defensive before he even knows what happened.

There are many ways to enjoy this game. Sometimes you fly fast and safe and selfish. Sometimes you bomb targets, escort bombers and take part in the actual mission. Sometimes you just go fool around flaps down throttle to the wall on the deck with a 110.

In the end what I want to say is this. Don't try to tell others how to enjoy their game, or look down on them if they don't fly 100% safe from the fighter point of view.

[JG5_emil]

Think you guys are missing the point. The OP asked "The turning, or rather the lack of turning, will take some getting used to. What are your strategies, blue pilots? "

I'm just giving my strategies and mine are to do everything possible to maintain energy in the form of speed or altitude or both and to never (unless I have screwed up) to perform manoeuvres that scrub off my energy unless I am in a position to remain higher and or faster than my opponent. At no point am I saying this never happens to me because it does, usually because I get kill hungry or take silly risks and when it does happen I would much prefer to escape in order to fight another day. If I've ended up in a turn/scissor fight the odds are against the aircraft. A better pilot can win but then again if you are also up against a good pilot in an aircraft more suited to that kind of fight you are most likely going to lose.

Dogfight servers are good for practice and/or just having fun. I have nothing against them but I do prefer COOPs and team tactics over low altitude fights to the death. The LW knew their strengths and weaknesses and I doubt many real pilots would fly that way, many of the ones that did probably ended up at the bottom of the channel. The pilots that used the strengths of the aircraft surely survived much longer.

So in short I think getting in to a situation where you are low with co alt or have a worse energy state is a bad thing but if you enjoy doing it then that's up to you. Our emphasis in JG5 is to fly as a team using tactics that suit the aircraft and we don't like flying with people that are reckless chasing an enemy to the deck which then puts the entire rotte at risk. They deplete the numbers of effective aircraft we wield and in our experience then expect us to come down and bail them out of their predicament...that isn't working as a team. Most of this experience comes from flying IL2 as we're still awaiting CLOD to get fixed but our principles would remain the same, we respect the team player who doesn't feel the need to chase a damaged enemy aircraft to the deck for their own glory and who then puts the rest of us at risk.

[Jaws2002]

Originally Posted by JG5_emil

The LW knew their strengths and weaknesses and I doubt many real pilots would fly that way, many of the ones that did probably ended up at the bottom of the channel. The pilots that used the strengths of the aircraft surely survived much longer.

Nope. The majority of LW pilots did waht they were told to do. Did you forget the "fly close to the bombers" orders Goering gave them? It was bad for the fighters, but at the time that's what they were told and that's what they did.
Wars are not fought individually by the pilots. They fight as part of a machine that works towards a strategic goal. The life of one, or a few fighter pilots is not more important than the final strategic goal.
The idea of the whole fighter force of the luftwafe flying however and wherever they like is bloody stupid. Very, very few of them had the freedon to fly how they wanted. Those are the ones that got to the top, by fighing how they were told.
If your unit has to cover a ground offensive, you flew at the altitude they told you. Not everyone was flying at 6000meters and engaged only when it suited them. You could be assigned to fly between ground level and 2000meters. It was not up to you. The success of the ground offensive dictated the air tactics.


Look. Here's a very good documentary that explains very well how military organizations work during wars:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31AXA...eature=related

You are basically a smal part of teh big picture.



I wish you all the fun and enjoy your flying. Just don't pretend this is absolutely the historical way to fly.
It's a game in the end, thanks God, and we all can get our fix however we like.

[JG5_emil]

You're putting words in my mouth that I haven't said.

Are you seriously going to tell me that the good pilots didn't know where their strengths lay and wouldn't want to try and use them in order to stay alive?

Yes there were given patrol altitude and tasked with escort duties as well as fighter sweeps and other missions. Sounds like you are the one who is forgetting that all of the fighter pilots hated being tasked with close escort? And why was that? because they knew they were being forced to fight in a situation where they couldn't use their strengths of speed and superior climb rate. There were slow and vulnerable. Once engaged do you think they didn't try to get the upper hand as soon as humanly possible? The 109 had several advantages over the Spit 1a and Hurricane and the pilots who survived would have tried to use them the best they could. I am yet to read about a 109 pilot who regularly flew round in circles 50ft of the deck at 250 kph and lived as you see in a dogfight server.

What I wrote was in response to the original posters request about tactics used by blue (CLOD pilots not real world pilots). Low and slow you are much more likely to die. Higher (than the enemy) and/or faster than your enemy you have more chance to win the fight and live. Higher doesn't mean 4000m higher, that would be ridiculous, I am speaking in terms of energy that can be converted in order to keep their advantage and ultimately win the fight or disengage at will and ultimately live to fight another day.

In short having a lower or equal energy state than your opponent is never a good thing and should be avoided.