Friday Update, January 27, 2012

[Tiger27]

Originally Posted by speculum jockey

Wow Soviet aircraft! That will really make Cliffs of Dover a finished game. I guess all the game was missing was the IL-2. . . after all it's in the name. Once we have all these Soviet aircraft then the online campaign in Cliffs of Dover won't suck and we'll be able to play an online mode that isn't 30 people trying to fly as low as they can so they can use that famous "historically correct" tactic of "negative altitude advantage".

Why are people cheering on Battle of Moscow? It gets released, we have another map and some more flyable planes. . . that doesn't make the game we already spend money on fun does it? I bought this game hoping my friends and I could recreate the Battle of Britain online with other like-minded people. All we've got right now is a pathetic dogfight server that feels like the Brits and Germans decided to only fight 30-50 aircraft at a time, within as small a space as possible.

Am I taking crazy pills here and don't know it, or should people be asking for the devs to finish what they started instead of making another 1/2 finished game? Will we ever get an online gameplay mode that isn't just about whoever got the best kill to death ratio? Or are the devs at MG happy with their product's single player and multiplayer aspects being "satisfactory" . . . according to 1994 standards?

Wow did you even read the post, the graphics modellers don't fix the AI, nor do they do the recoding to fix bugs, some of you just seem to ignore what you are being told, if the Devs were happy do you think they would be spending all this time recoding graphics sounds etc to improve multiplayer and single player

I cant play the game at the moment always crashes, but at least the devs are still working on it, I still hold out hope that they will nail the problems down and get the game up to a level of quality that we saw with Il2, its obvious that this is going to take a while, so I just fly ROF while waiting

[Hunden]

All you die hard fans who say you wouldn't have minded waiting another year have got to be out of your freaking mind. What is stopping you from waiting now and coming back in a year or so. UNBELIEVABLE

[He111]

Looks fanatastic! i'm drooling already.

BTW, didn't the Red airforce fly defiants, whimpys and Condors .. I think ,YES!

He111.

[Buzpilot]

I wonder for how long I'll fly this Mustang, while waiting for this game to get rdy for action.

[Chivas]

Nice pic, but I've been flying Spits, 109's, Hurri's, 110's, Blenheim's, Ju's, in actions in COD, over decent terrain for the last eight months. Although Spits against Warthogs doesn't interest me that much.

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by Ataros

You and other complainers must have a different game version than this guy has. This is real online gameplay footage on ATAG server that proves that the game is in a playable condition with recent patches installed via Steam .
http://www.youtube.com/user/Semashko27/videos
If someone states the opposite please proved a proof as solid and evident as this one.

Ataros,

i'll have to disagree with you there. you have made some well informed posts here, so i'll try and summarise why

first, let me say i am seriously underwhelmed by the p*** poor content of the "update" just released. other then it being nice to have somebody like B6 actually communicate with the fan base now, the "progress report" regarding the fixing of important and much overdue CoD issues is essentially zilch !

iirc its been over 4 or 5 months now that this "soon to be released major rebuild of the gfx engine" was announced, and ever since then the 1C production house has gone into hibernation it seems, even making worrying statements some months ago that "all work on the patch had been halted" (i paraphrase, but most here will remember that luthier statement some months ago). And all we still get now is "we are working on it" ?
whatever goodwill there was in the first months of the last years release fiasco, this has now long evaporated with me (and many others here), and I’d lable myself as one of the most ardent oleg/il2 supporters, with many who have passed through this forum here having the scars to prove it.

in short, its about 12 months since release time, and other then people with monster pc's, its still barely playable right now and has way to many major bugs to make it an enjoyable sim "out of the box". Maybe to some here the poor gfx engine performance giving v low fpsec and STILL many micro-stutters can be put down to “2011 pc complexity in programming” , but most other problems cant be excused by that. yet we are being told fixing many of the other bugs is being delayed by the gfx engine rework (while 2/3 of the 1c staff seem to already be working on the next sim). that logic doesnt compute with me, sure have a few iddle object designers work on moskow buildings, but all the rest should be still hard at work fixing and completing fiasco nmber 1.

For ex the poor visually impression of the virtual southern English landscape we are supposed to fly over, it still doesnt look or feel like any english landscape/scenery that I know (and yes I lived there for 6 years, so I do know). for ex fields and smaller roads in southern england would usually be lined by hedges, and NOT lines of trees as might be the case for french roads (and is now done in CoD for England). In all these 12 months of delays with the perfornce patch, is there really not a single grafix designer in the 1C team who could have been addressing some of those visual issues ? it could be done in a few weeks by a team of 2 grafik artists, and it would completely change the feel of the game. and is there really not one person availble in the whole 1c team that can give us some basic ground AI activity like ambulances and refueling/rearming animations ? spice it up a little bro, you'd be amazed at what some eye candy does to keep the fans interested and patient.

Further there are still significant omissions for ex, no dynamic campaign, limited weather, no AI ground activity at airfields, minimal single missions, major problems with coops and crashes, some major errors like general AI aircraft behaviour and friendly AI control, some significant flight model issues in some of the allied planes, poor simulation of distant object visibility from cockpit (which shows NOTHING was learned from what was one of the main downfalls of the il2 series in the SIMULATION of ww2 pilot experience) , and many unfinished elements (still flying through trees eh).

I don’t mind if some of the grand ambitions have been postponed (driving vehicles, controlling ships, advanced tactical control in a dynamic campaign, full dynamic weather etc), but all the previous problems I listed should be solved by now 12 months after release imho. for a next gen sim that was for years promoted as being a quantum leap into "simulation realism", there is LOTS to fix and finish right now, before most of the current customers can get even interested in the next edition of il2. a few i16 pics and a vague "we'r working on it" just doesnt do it anymore, and having some well meaning fans jump on anybody that points some of this out doesnt solve it either.

btw, i was GIVEN a russian download version of CoD about 6 months ago (as a thank you for building a friends new pc), and i DELETED it, it was so unplayable on my system (and i dont have weeks to waste to fiddle with it to try and get it to run each time a micro patch is released on steam). i tried it again about 3 months ago (with all the steam updates) and it was still UNPLAYABLE (except if you just fly over water and limit yourself to air quake servers online), even if my pc is mid-range (i5 dual core, 4 gb ram, ati 5770 1 gb card, 27' monitor at 1920 x 1200, hotas, track –ir etc). to get such negative feedback from some of the most ardent and long term oleg supporters (having played il2 since its first demo almost 10 yrs ago) speaks for itself, there is something seriously rotten in denmark ! sure, for people with monster pc's (and there are a few here) they now get reasonable performance over land/cities, but that is the only exception (and they are the main posters of the video's you refer to) and for them it is also a very limited experience in flying online in dogfight servers that have nothing in comon with an unfolding historical BoB SIMULATION , for the rest of us its a pretty buggy game with poor performance, let alone speaking of wanting a decent unfolding BoB scenario with all its variety and complexity.

the key issue is to get a major rebuild of the gfx engine, so the overall performance of the game is up to scratch (forget about adding elements like dynamic weather which will significantly further stress our humble pc’s), and that is exactly what these updates should be focused on right now. If you’d want to keep people quiet while you are doing it, then give them some morsels to chew on, like a new BoB theater plane or warship, or fix some of the ai issues and flight models, don’t insult our intelligence by giving irrelevant trivia about the next installment you are planning to sell to your unsatisfied current customers. Btw I checked the BoB/CoD prices at my local game store yesterday because i still intend to buy a normal copy once it is fixed (so I don’t have to keep messing with the English dll and feel I am “contributing” like I did during the il2 series of releases), and the price is still 89$. But instead of giving you the money, I bought the latest installment of Call of Duty Modern Warfare for my nephew.and that about sums it up for me, simply not worth the money in its current state.

I’m an optimist, I can see the promised land, and have done so since oleg started putting this project together with his great ambitions. But all CoD-BoB is doing for me now is showing the POTENTIAL it has, not what it IS right now as an enjoyable playable game out of the box (unless you have an uber pc and ignore some very annoying omissions and irritating bugs). If some users are having thrills with it and like it, great, I am not here to tell them they shouldn’t (and i dont come here to make posts in that vein). but for many here like me, ignoring its many flaws and problems and pretending it is working well 12 months after release is a load of equine fecal matter being masqueraded as a black forest gateaux, it just don’t fly baby, however much i love oleg for what he has done over the years, and however keen i am on wanting BoB/SoW to succeed !!

Disclaimer: just my frustrated perspective 12 months after release, your personal mileage may vary depending on pc hardware used, and on your standards of what a well rounded completed game should be in 2012.

[SaimOn67]

+1 @ zapatista!

[bongodriver]

Disclaimer: just my frustrated perspective 12 months after release, your personal mileage may vary depending on pc hardware used, and on your standards of what a well rounded completed game should be in 2012.

Here is the real substance of that post, the rest is just a wall of text of the usual whingeing.

[SlipBall]

Originally Posted by zapatista

Ataros,

i'll have to disagree with you there. you have made some well informed posts here, so i'll try and summarise why

first, let me say i am seriously underwhelmed by the p*** poor content of the "update" just released. other then it being nice to have somebody like B6 actually communicate with the fan base now, the "progress report" regarding the fixing of important and much overdue CoD issues is essentially zilch !

iirc its been over 4 or 5 months now that this "soon to be released major rebuild of the gfx engine" was announced, and ever since then the 1C production house has gone into hibernation it seems, even making worrying statements some months ago that "all work on the patch had been halted" (i paraphrase, but most here will remember that luthier statement some months ago). And all we still get now is "we are working on it" ?
whatever goodwill there was in the first months of the last years release fiasco, this has now long evaporated with me (and many others here), and I’d lable myself as one of the most ardent oleg/il2 supporters, with many who have passed through this forum here having the scars to prove it.

in short, its about 12 months since release time, and other then people with monster pc's, its still barely playable right now and has way to many major bugs to make it an enjoyable sim "out of the box". Maybe to some here the poor gfx engine performance giving v low fpsec and STILL many micro-stutters can be put down to “2011 pc complexity in programming” , but most other problems cant be excused by that. yet we are being told fixing many of the other bugs is being delayed by the gfx engine rework (while 2/3 of the 1c staff seem to already be working on the next sim). that logic doesnt compute with me, sure have a few iddle object designers work on moskow buildings, but all the rest should be still hard at work fixing and completing fiasco nmber 1.

For ex the poor visually impression of the virtual southern English landscape we are supposed to fly over, it still doesnt look or feel like any english landscape/scenery that I know (and yes I lived there for 6 years, so I do know). for ex fields and smaller roads in southern england would usually be lined by hedges, and NOT lines of trees as might be the case for french roads (and is now done in CoD for England). In all these 12 months of delays with the perfornce patch, is there really not a single grafix designer in the 1C team who could have been addressing some of those visual issues ? it could be done in a few weeks by a team of 2 grafik artists, and it would completely change the feel of the game. and is there really not one person availble in the whole 1c team that can give us some basic ground AI activity like ambulances and refueling/rearming animations ? spice it up a little bro, you'd be amazed at what some eye candy does to keep the fans interested and patient.

Further there are still significant omissions for ex, no dynamic campaign, limited weather, no AI ground activity at airfields, minimal single missions, major problems with coops and crashes, some major errors like general AI aircraft behaviour and friendly AI control, some significant flight model issues in some of the allied planes, poor simulation of distant object visibility from cockpit (which shows NOTHING was learned from what was one of the main downfalls of the il2 series in the SIMULATION of ww2 pilot experience) , and many unfinished elements (still flying through trees eh).

I don’t mind if some of the grand ambitions have been postponed (driving vehicles, controlling ships, advanced tactical control in a dynamic campaign, full dynamic weather etc), but all the previous problems I listed should be solved by now 12 months after release imho. for a next gen sim that was for years promoted as being a quantum leap into "simulation realism", there is LOTS to fix and finish right now, before most of the current customers can get even interested in the next edition of il2. a few i16 pics and a vague "we'r working on it" just doesnt do it anymore, and having some well meaning fans jump on anybody that points some of this out doesnt solve it either.

btw, i was GIVEN a russian download version of CoD about 6 months ago (as a thank you for building a friends new pc), and i DELETED it, it was so unplayable on my system (and i dont have weeks to waste to fiddle with it to try and get it to run each time a micro patch is released on steam). i tried it again about 3 months ago (with all the steam updates) and it was still UNPLAYABLE (except if you just fly over water and limit yourself to air quake servers online), even if my pc is mid-range (i5 dual core, 4 gb ram, ati 5770 1 gb card, 27' monitor at 1920 x 1200, hotas, track –ir etc). to get such negative feedback from some of the most ardent and long term oleg supporters (having played il2 since its first demo almost 10 yrs ago) speaks for itself, there is something seriously rotten in denmark ! sure, for people with monster pc's (and there are a few here) they now get reasonable performance over land/cities, but that is the only exception (and they are the main posters of the video's you refer to) and for them it is also a very limited experience in flying online in dogfight servers that have nothing in comon with an unfolding historical BoB SIMULATION , for the rest of us its a pretty buggy game with poor performance, let alone speaking of wanting a decent unfolding BoB scenario with all its variety and complexity.

the key issue is to get a major rebuild of the gfx engine, so the overall performance of the game is up to scratch (forget about adding elements like dynamic weather which will significantly further stress our humble pc’s), and that is exactly what these updates should be focused on right now. If you’d want to keep people quiet while you are doing it, then give them some morsels to chew on, like a new BoB theater plane or warship, or fix some of the ai issues and flight models, don’t insult our intelligence by giving irrelevant trivia about the next installment you are planning to sell to your unsatisfied current customers. Btw I checked the BoB/CoD prices at my local game store yesterday because i still intend to buy a normal copy once it is fixed (so I don’t have to keep messing with the English dll and feel I am “contributing” like I did during the il2 series of releases), and the price is still 89$. But instead of giving you the money, I bought the latest installment of Call of Duty Modern Warfare for my nephew.and that about sums it up for me, simply not worth the money in its current state.

I’m an optimist, I can see the promised land, and have done so since oleg started putting this project together with his great ambitions. But all CoD-BoB is doing for me now is showing the POTENTIAL it has, not what it IS right now as an enjoyable playable game out of the box (unless you have an uber pc and ignore some very annoying omissions and irritating bugs). If some users are having thrills with it and like it, great, I am not here to tell them they shouldn’t (and i dont come here to make posts in that vein). but for many here like me, ignoring its many flaws and problems and pretending it is working well 12 months after release is a load of equine fecal matter being masqueraded as a black forest gateaux, it just don’t fly baby, however much i love oleg for what he has done over the years, and however keen i am on wanting BoB/SoW to succeed !!

Disclaimer: just my frustrated perspective 12 months after release, your personal mileage may vary depending on pc hardware used, and on your standards of what a well rounded completed game should be in 2012.

I agree with many of your thoughts here, and so much easier for me because that was a lot of typing you did. I think many of us long term supporters are left scratching our heads with the 1C priorities concerning this sim. It breaks my heart to admit that I have zero interest in the next sequel. 1C has severely damaged their perceived capability and credibility in my mind, and may be en route to financial disaster. I think they should have been focused on getting this sim running for the masses before working on a sequel.

[Ataros]

Originally Posted by zapatista

btw, i was GIVEN a russian download version of CoD about 6 months ago (as a thank you for building a friends new pc), and i DELETED it, it was so unplayable on my system (and i dont have weeks to waste to fiddle with it to try and get it to run each time a micro patch is released on steam). i tried it again about 3 months ago (with all the steam updates) and it was still UNPLAYABLE (except if you just fly over water and limit yourself to air quake servers online), even if my pc is mid-range (i5 dual core, 4 gb ram, ati 5770 1 gb card, 27' monitor at 1920 x 1200, hotas, track –ir etc). to get such negative feedback from some of the most ardent and long term oleg supporters (having played il2 since its first demo almost 10 yrs ago) speaks for itself, there is something seriously rotten in denmark ! sure, for people with monster pc's (and there are a few here) they now get reasonable performance over land/cities, but that is the only exception (and they are the main posters of the video's you refer to)

In your particular case the issue that prevents you from playing is too high resolution multiplied by a low-end PC (budget video card and a dual core processor). Your system would run it OK @ 1400x900 resolution. No patch will fix it and I can explain why:

My experience with sims like Warbirds, Il-2, several versions of MSFS, ArmA1, 2, RoF, etc. gave me a good lesson: do not buy a high resolution monitor if you do not want to buy the most expensive video card on the market every year. I flew Warbirds in 800x600 оn 15', then IL2 on 17' in 2001 @ 1024x800x16bit, 2002 @ 1150x960x16bit and only since 2003 @ 1280x1024x32bit (changed several processors and video cards in the process). With shooters like Call of Duty, BF2,3 or Wings of Prey resolution can be set as much as 2 times higher because they are "optimised" which means visibility distance and details level are reduced (compare CloD to BF3 for instance). Sims are different in nature (and by definition) as their purpose is to have IRL visibility distance and IRL details level. It is just absolutely not logical to expect sims to be optimised in the same way as other genres are. The most challenging sims for me to run smoothly was MSFS and then RoF (on a single core CPU back then) btw.

The above lessons were very painful because I wanted higher FPS but did not want to pay for it buying a new video card every year. Having learned the lessons I bought 1680x1050 monitor for CloD because I new it would be as demanding as any other sim I know. Now I know that every sequel will raise requirements higher and higher as soon as they are published every year or so.

@ 1680x1050 the game is very playable on my very old system i7-860@3.8 (2 years old) - HD4890 (3 generations old). Landscape, forest, buildings @ low, other @ med-high with some driver & system fine-tuning.

I do not expect much performance increase from the upcoming patch. It will be not more than 10% for some systems and switching just one graphics setting up will take it away.

You will be able to run 1920 x 1200 with max settings only when SLI is working and you have 2x 580-3GB vram set up I am afraid. But SLI technology is very unreliable in sims and if it works in one patch it may not work in the next patch as RoF example shows for instance. I do not recommend going this way.

If you definitely need a huge screen now, the most cost efficient solution is to purchase a big 2nd hand CRT monitor or a projector and run it at about 1400x900 or 1680x1050 resolution max.

It is not possible to have a quick, cheap and quality(high-res) solution at the same time in real life. There is always a trade-off in real life. You have to sacrifice 1 or 2 factors to have another:

1) wait till 2013 hardware (time),
2) buy every new top video card that enters the market (cost),
3) reduce resolution and/or settings (quality).

You can have it quick, cheap and high quality at the same time only in children fairy tales.

PS. Mr.X whose videos show that the game is very playable in its current state has the same 2 year-old processor as I have and a 2-3 years old gtx480. Perhaps he plays with lower settings than he records videos and his res is reasonable 1920x1080. http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=29379