Bf109 information, lighting a fuse and running for cover!

[5./JG27.Farber]

Im not promoting it. I just wondered what people thought, especially the small percentile of Aeroengineers etc we have amongst us... Not the laymen such as I.

[Al Schlageter]

The first production Bf109G didn't begin coming off the production line til June 1942. Even the number produced is wrong. Must have been using that modern day Goebbels web site for info.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

The link is not working for me.. Is it the link that shows the IL-2 Bf-109K-4 has a climb rate that is 30% better than the real life Bf-109K-4?

[Faustnik]

Originally Posted by ACE-OF-ACES

The link is not working for me.. Is it the link that shows the IL-2 Bf-109K-4 has a climb rate that is 30% better than the real life Bf-109K-4?

I done think the 109 in this link has a Mercedies engine.

The pilot said that the 109 was lighter that the p-51 and the center gun was good. That makes sence. Nothing what we have read about before.

One 109 kills 17 Spit in 8 min. Thats funny. .


(sorry about the poor righting. I'm working on it.)

[CaptainDoggles]

A lot of misleading statements on that website, like this gem:

The P-51 could not be yawed and had to be flown at the target for its bullets to hit the target.

Or perhaps this one:

Because of the fantastic handling characteristics of the Me109, the P-51 was not match for the Me109.

Making a blanket statement of two contemporary fighters like this is almost always false. I think at high altitude the two fighters were probably rather well-matched, but it's hard to make an accurate judgment because by 1944 the Luftwaffe was in a sorry state and I can't imagine many engagements occurred on equal terms. More likely the USAAF were gang-banging the Luftwaffe fighters from above with superior numbers.

Certainly as an interceptor the Bf 109 is far superior, and much data exists to support this conclusion. Similarly the P-51's design suits it well as an escort fighter. Plentiful small-calibre ammunition and lots of fuel. Its job is to force the interceptors down, away from the bombers it is protecting. Kills are a bonus.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

but it's hard to make an accurate judgment because by 1944 the Luftwaffe was in a sorry state and I can't imagine many engagements occurred on equal terms. More likely the USAAF were gang-banging the Luftwaffe fighters from above with superior numbers.

I agree with everything you said.. except that above

It is a bit of a myth.. Not saying that never happened, only that it was not the case in all cases

First thing you have to consider is that it is harder to play defence.. The US planes had to out number the enmy because they had to cover the B17s from all sides.. Left, Right, Rear, and Front.. Where as the Lw would gather up all thier planes and make an attack from one of those sides..

For example, say there were 100 escorts and only 40 enemy planes attacking

The 100 would be split up into 25 rear, 25 left, 25 right, and 25 front.. So if the Lw attacked with all 40 planes from the left.. it would result in a 40 vs 25 fight.. Now conisder that most of these fights only lasted a few min.. It was over by the time the other three groups would make their way over to the fight

So, in that case you can see that 'per fight' it was not allways the case that the Lw was out numbered.. As in 5 US vs 1 Lw.. If anything it was the other way around

And before anyone jumps me here.. Note I am not saying this was the case in every case.. All I am pointing out is the idea a Lw 109 fighter was allways outnumbered (jumped by 4 or more Mustangs) in every case is a myth

[ACE-OF-ACES]

It is also a bit of a myth that the USAAF allways had a altitude advantage.. The Lw would enter the area at a hight above that of the bombers.. Just ecanse the escorts picked them up prior to the B17s.. They knew the escorts hung out above the bombers..

Granted once the Lw got into position to attack the bombers.. they would dive down to the bombers giving up the alt advantage.. but at the same time trading alt for speed

[ACE-OF-ACES]

And it should also be noted that the Lw was not interested in shooting down the escorts.. They avoided them at all cost.. The goal was to get to the bombers.. Many a poor 109 was shot down while trying to line up the B17 as a P51 snuck up the 109s rear.. Long story short, the dog fight was the exception to the rule.. Where each fighter knew he was in a fight with the other.. Most pilots were shot down before they even knew they were in a fight.. Which was the case for most if not all of Hartmans victums due to Hartmans never turn tatics

[xnomad]

Originally Posted by ACE-OF-ACES

It is also a bit of a myth that the USAAF allways had a altitude advantage.. The Lw would enter the area at a hight above that of the bombers.. Just ecanse the escorts picked them up prior to the B17s.. They knew the escorts hung out above the bombers..

Granted once the Lw got into position to attack the bombers.. they would dive down to the bombers giving up the alt advantage.. but at the same time trading alt for speed

Don't forget that the targets for the LW were the bombers. Near the end of the war there wasn't much fuel about so they only took off when the bombers were close enough to intercept directly. They didn't have the luxury of taking off early and climbing to a favourable position.

The allied fighters could be far ahead of the bombers and thus getting to the LW planes whilst they were still climbing. Also later in the war the order was given to actively seek and attack the Luftwaffe and her bases and not just fly escort. So the LW weren't even safe on the ground.

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by ACE-OF-ACES

And before anyone jumps me here.. Note I am not saying this was the case in every case.. All I am pointing out is the idea a Lw 109 fighter was allways outnumbered (jumped by 4 or more Mustangs) in every case is a myth

Hmmm.

Well, I agree that the Luftwaffe were not always outnumbered 100% of the time.

But the whole point of Big Week was to exhaust, attrit and otherwise destroy the Luftwaffe in preparation for the D-Day landings and I'll maintain that Allied air superiority was the norm. Allied numbers were very very high during this period. For example, during one of the Berlin raids, they sent 800 escort fighters. While the Luftwaffe may have achieved local superiority in some cases, this would have been the exception, not the rule.

By February of 1944 the LW was feeling the effects of chronic fuel shortages, and the situation only got worse from there.

There's a report I don't have a link to, made by Galland in April of 1944 that was published in Caldwell and Muller's book. In the report he states that in the preceding 4 months the Luftwaffe had lost more than 1000 pilots. He goes on to state that in nearly every engagement his fighters are outnumbered by more than 6:1.

The Germans experimented with "Big Wing" formations like the RAF had done earlier in the war, and while it was successful in some cases, they soon learned just how hard it is to get a Big Wing together when dealing with fuel shortages and inexperienced pilots.

By June, the Luftwaffe had been rendered ineffective over North-Western France and the Allies enjoyed air superiority for the duration of the D-Day landings.