Vulcan to the Skies

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by BPickles

Really that narrow minded ? It is living history if we let it go people forget, just because its cold war or nuclear we shouldn't bother. Frankly that attitude sucks mate, do you feel the same about WW2 aircraft? And if its the death factor associated with nukes that's putting you off I assure you concord killed more people in its history than the Vulcan did.
Plus this, ever heard its howl? unique...

oh believe me, I did hear that a lot of times. I was based in Brunters for long time, working with some friends on other restorations, so I know ALL the story, even the more obscure aspects of it probably, the murky ones that don't make it to the public.

I regularly fly with WW2 planes, and I can tell you that there's a HUGE difference between flying a B-17 and a Vulcan. Putting aside the "moral aspects" (although I'd still like any of you to explain me what's the point of that thing opening the London Olympics), the prohibitive costs should be enough to make you want to have a more responsible managing or a different project altogether.

[BPickles]

ALL the story, i doubt that mate unless you worked on it yourself, rumors are rumors, when you say based in Brunters do you mean worked in Brunters as a civ?

Mate you are answering your own questions about the Vulcan with answers that you use for other restoration projects, its the same principle and the same passion. Why shouldn't they ask for donations?

All famous aircraft have a trust fund if its one of a kind and the only airworthy example. The government helps pay for unique things in this country but they only pay so much, as they do with the BBMF, the rest relys on public funding.

The people who pay to help keep this bird in the air do so because it defines a generation and not only that it is a unique aircraft that does define UK aviation and its ingenuity through the 60's, that's also the reason why they may be using it to open the London Olympics (not heard that though) but personally I couldn't think of anything more fitting to open the Olympics in England than the Avro Vulcan.

I'm finding it crazy that I would have to explain all this to an aviation enthusiast. There's plenty of crap flying around that I don't like but if i have the money spare at a show to make a donation I do so to preserve the history and the happiness of the people who do love that aircraft.

I guess the main reason why your argument is invalid is because its not your money your arguing over, also why do moral aspects even come into it? Surely if that were true you'd object to the Lancaster flying.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by BPickles

ALL the story, i doubt that mate unless you worked on it yourself, rumors are rumors, when you say based in Brunters do you mean worked in Brunters as a civ?

Without going into too much detail, we were offered the possibility of collaborating with them as a hack plane, using our twin engined plane for ferry flights to move personnel etc.. but then they changed their minds and actually wanted to charge us for it (!!!).

Mate you are answering your own questions about the Vulcan with answers that you use for other restoration projects, its the same principle and the same passion. Why shouldn't they ask for donations?

All famous aircraft have a trust fund if its one of a kind and the only airworthy example. The government helps pay for unique things in this country but they only pay so much, as they do with the BBMF, the rest relys on public funding.

it's more of an exception to the rule than a standard thing. Most warbird operators do it only with their own means, they don't go around begging for money. Many airshow organisers don't even cover fuel costs anymore, and God knows how expensive an hour on a Mustang is.. still, they do it out of passion and with their own means, not begging around for money.

The people who pay to help keep this bird in the air do so because it defines a generation and not only that it is a unique aircraft that does define UK aviation and its ingenuity through the 60's, that's also the reason why they may be using it to open the London Olympics (not heard that though) but personally I couldn't think of anything more fitting to open the Olympics in England than the Avro Vulcan.

yeah, I'm sure that the Argentinians will be chuffed to bits about it
Besides, what's better to promote the spirit of sport as an event that unites people from all over the world in a healthy competition than a former nuclear bomber?!

I'm finding it crazy that I would have to explain all this to an aviation enthusiast. There's plenty of crap flying around that I don't like but if i have the money spare at a show to make a donation I do so to preserve the history and the happiness of the people who do love that aircraft.

I guess the main reason why your argument is invalid is because its not your money your arguing over, also why do moral aspects even come into it? Surely if that were true you'd object to the Lancaster flying.

Wait wait wait. There's a HUGE difference between a Lancaster flying and a Vulcan flying.
Lancasters contributed to the end of WW2, and albeit involved in the questionable trategic bombing of Germany, the sacrifice of so many young British airmen needs to be celebrated somehow.

I dunno if it's about the shape, the dark colour or the solemnity of the thing, but whenever the BBMF Lancaster flies at an airshow, there's silence and there's always a feeling of insight and respect, not excitement.

[bongodriver]

I don't get you at all Stern.......but I'm guessing you have a real stick up your arse with anything British (past threads have indicated this inclination)

The Vulcan has no more a questionable history than any other military machine in existence, they were built for a purpouse dictated by the times, are you really upset that it was used to drop bombs on an airfield in the Falklands?.........god forbid an aircraft built to be a bomber should do the job it was intended for (not like it dropped nukes on Bueno Aires)

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

I don't get you at all Stern.......but I'm guessing you have a real stick up your arse with anything British (past threads have indicated this inclination)

au contraire mon ami, I find British engineering to be fascinating to say the least. There's a lot of vision and unorthodox design in anything British, but this is not the point..

The Vulcan has no more a questionable history than any other military machine in existence, they were built for a purpouse dictated by the times, are you really upset that it was used to drop bombs on an airfield in the Falklands?.........god forbid an aircraft built to be a bomber should do the job it was intended for (not like it dropped nukes on Bueno Aires)

I simply think it's not worth spending all that money for such a plane, and worst of all I don't think it deserves all the attention and meaning it's been given, nowadays you stick a poppy and some flags on something and it must become a national symbol for the armed forces, come on, really? What's the significance of such a machine in historical terms? I'd rather have that money poured into the re-building of a Stirling or a Mosquito.. or how about the plane that never was, the TSR-2?

[bongodriver]

Bomber command is represented well enough by the 2+1 existing flyable Lancs, there are a few Mossies about and being restored, there is nothing else flying that represents the 'V force' and at least there are some to make airworthy, a Stirling would have to be remanufactured because there are none in existense, I personally would like to see a Halifax and a Wimpy....actually I'd rather see a Warwick because my uncle flew them in WWII.

TSR 2 would never be able to fly in the UK for the same reason we don't fly the Lightning and theres probably nobody left alive with any flight time on it.

The Vulcan is perfectly valid to represent British engineering and act as ambassador for British armed forces of the past, and if people want to pay for it....so be it, why don't you start a Stirling rebuild campaign and see if you can raise the funds?

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

Bomber command is represented well enough by the 2+1 existing flyable Lancs, there are a few Mossies about and being restored, there is nothing else flying that represents the 'V force' and at least there are some to make airworthy, a Stirling would have to be remanufactured because there are none in existense, I personally would like to see a Halifax and a Wimpy....actually I'd rather see a Warwick because my uncle flew them in WWII.

Look better http://www.stirlingproject.co.uk/
and check what they're doing in Germany with the FW200.

The Vulcan instead is something like this: "heeeeey wassup biatches!? We would really like to take this Vulcan we have back to the sky, cos we think it's cool you know? But hey guess what, we're skint! We're gonna start scraping every bottom of every barrel for some pennies, and then we'll see what happens! It's fun, it's loud, it's huge! Yeah we need at least half a million every six months, but hey, it's fun, it's loud, it's huge!... uh and have I mentioned yet that it's fun, it's loud, it's huge?!"

You simply do not take on such a project with no sound financial plan, it's utterly ridiculous.

Again, look what Lufthansa is doing with their Ju52 (and will do with their Super Connie): restoration according to a sound and affordable maintenance plan, plus the possibility to sell tickets to contribute to the expenses.

Truth is that the Vulcan belongs to a generation where the running costs of these machines were prohibitive for a whole country's GDP, let alone a private enterprise!

TSR 2 would never be able to fly in the UK for the same reason we don't fly the Lightning and theres probably nobody left alive with any flight time on it.

It's only a matter of time before Lightnings will get permission to fly now.
It will surely happen, like it happened in South Africa and USA.

The Vulcan is perfectly valid to represent British engineering and act as ambassador for British armed forces of the past, and if people want to pay for it....so be it, why don't you start a Stirling rebuild campaign and see if you can raise the funds?

I'd leave the "military ambassador of the past" role to a highly significant machine like the Lanc, and maybe take back to the air the Concorde as example of fine British engineering (or maybe make something new?!). No matter how hard you try, there's really no real motivation to fly the Vulcan other than personal interest. Morphing this personal interest into a "worthy cause" though is grotesque to say the least.