CoD's 109E4 canons : overdone ?

[pupo162]

well. oi could dig the post. but the normal 109 e3 explosvie shell ( not really explsoive but icendiary) as about 7-12 grams of explosive. vs 40g of explosive of a mine shell.

im not sure of this values to be acurate, but the proportion should be about right.

[TomcatViP]

Hi guys,

Yes the MG17 are good and in some way better. Like many here I can shot down several bombers with only the twin machine gun of my E3 (I think I did 4.5 one day when my canon ammo were exhausted before I came in contact with a flight of Wellies). I hve alway advocated the introduction of the E1 on that very grds when we had problem and complains abt the effectiveness of the 109 armament.

I am training offline my canon skills as it suit better the way I am engaging targets. Hence, it can be said that most of the score I am referring too in my post (see above) are CANON kills.

I hve alway thought that the Mineshells were far much effective and the fact that it double my kill ratio with only a few of those weapons in my drums tend to re-affirm that thought

With 60 shells I can score 6 kills what makes us 10 shells per kill with 500 rpm = 10/500 min for a kill = 0.02*60sec = 1.2 sec to score one kill. That's an impressive AVERAGE stats (I hve 21% rate of hits in the E4 - 12/15% in the E3).

I hev no problem with the 1 sec burst to make a plane goes down. But in AVERAGE ?! over 10min of fight ?

My opinion is that something is over done like the blast radius as I said once.

@Doggles : I am not crying after kill stealing since CoD give credits to everyone that scrored a hit and once a crew has bailed out it's often impossible to see that a plane is going down (usually it can fly straight for hours). Perhaps, some damage sharing might be tuned up.
But what belt wld you recommend ?

[CaptainDoggles]

It's been a while, but I seem to recall I had good success using equal panzerbrandsprenggranate and phosphor/elektron rounds. The very first mission I had a one-pass kill on a Hurri IIRC.

[CaptainDoggles]

Ball is more effective against wooden and fabric-covered targets, as the round makes larger, more ragged holes.

[drewpee]

Originally Posted by cheesehawk

This is a 30mm, but gives you an idea of how these rounds were. Even at a fraction of that destructive power, it would give an effect modelled relatively accurately in CoD. Mind you, we can't see bent skin, but a high explosive cannon round should do tremendous damage. The minengeschoss round had more explosive charge than the 20mm rounds of the German Panzers. It didn't have the penetrating power however.

The 20mm round had something like 20g of HE, where the 30mm had 70g

Nice find Cheesehalk. Interesting to see historical dater at work.

I must say I cringe every time a debate is started on AC performance. Only documented dater should be counted or it becomes more of a contest of who sounds the most convincing and not what is truth.

Actually I always thought that the minengeschoss is slightly undermodelled particularly with respect to the damage it should do on the primary structure. It seems to make only damage on the skin (holes) that does take some stress in real life but not as much as the carrying structure. The minengeschoss as modelled in the game seems only to punch large holes and that's it.

As we can see in the vid the damage by the 108 on the ribs and spars is considerable and should rip off the wing under load greater than 1g (or perhaps even at lower g as the wing in the vid seems to be supported by some structure).

Of course I do not expect exactly the same damage by the minengeschoss as the calliber was smaller (I think by 25% smaller)

Of course this is my personal thinking.

[TomcatViP]

This is 30mm shells. They are much bigger than 20mm and carry both more kinetic and chemical destructive power.

If we stay on that line, 30mm canons in future add-on would be modeled just like laser ray guns à la IL2's Mig-9

What I want to say is that the E4 canons bring too much improvement regarding those of the E3 (see the % of damages) and feel like being way too optimistic in hit rate (see the nbr of shells needed averagely per kill).

Originally Posted by TomcatViP

This is 30mm shells. They are much bigger than 20mm and carry both more kinetic and chemical destructive power.

If we stay on that line, 30mm canons in future add-on would be modeled just like laser ray guns à la IL2's Mig-9

What I want to say is that the E4 canons bring too much improvement regarding those of the E3 (see the % of damages) and feel like being way too optimistic in hit rate (see the nbr of shells needed averagely per kill).

Well, chemical destructive power in a shell = explosive. Or do you mean the chemical destructive power meant that it will on impact corrode the material away? I guess that is not what the chemical stuff was meant to do as it would have taken too much time to take effect

If we equate explosive power to the mass then we can make a rapid and simplified calculation on what could be estimated as the explosive power of a 20mm shell wrt a 30mm shell:

volume 20mm shell / volume 30mm shell (assuming overall same length) = 20^2 / 30^2 = 0.44. Ok let's say that the volume of a 20mm shell is about 40% of a 30 mm shell. I think this can be somewhat used as an approximation of the detonation mass that is we may now estimate the explosion power of a 20mm shell to about 40% of the explosive power of a 30mm shell. Comparing this to the video 40% of the damage shown would still mean considerable damage ... and even 30% of the damage would have impaired the plane considerably imho ...

[TomcatViP]

I had a more impressive image in my books but can't remeber where.

here is an extract from the excellent website : http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/tankammo4.htm

Legend : WW2 AIRCRAFT GUN AMMUNITION (2)

20x101RB (Oerlikon FFL/IJN Type 99-2), 20x110RB (Oerlikon FFS/HS Type 7, 9), 20x110 (Hispano HS 404), 20x125 (IJA Ho-1, Ho-3), 23x152B (23mm VYa), 30x90RB (MK 10 , 30x184B (MK 101/MK 103), 37x145R (US M4, M10), 37x195 (NS-37)

You can see on this same website the comparison btw HS404 and MGFF M

[VO101_Tom]

Originally Posted by TomcatViP

This is 30mm shells. They are much bigger than 20mm and carry both more kinetic and chemical destructive power.

If we stay on that line, 30mm canons in future add-on would be modeled just like laser ray guns à la IL2's Mig-9

What I want to say is that the E4 canons bring too much improvement regarding those of the E3 (see the % of damages) and feel like being way too optimistic in hit rate (see the nbr of shells needed averagely per kill).

I know, its not MG-FF/M, but the 20 mm M-Geschoss have devastating effect too, not only the 30mm (against a P47!):

http://riseofflight.com/forum/viewto...219796#p219796