.303 ammunition expierence exchange

[Gerbil Maximus]

The .303's are under powered. You can read many accounts from pilots that state giving german aircraft in the battle a 2-3 second burst and watching the aircraft disintegrate before their eyes. For larger aircraft of course more power was needed hence the introduction of the 20mm.
But everyone presumes that because the round is a .303 it wont do much damage, a single .303 wont do much thats true but were are talking huge volumes of rounds.
Lets do the maths }
8 guns
Each gun can fire 1,200 rpm (lightened breaches etc for aircraft use)
So thats 9,600rounds in 1 minute.
So if we divide 1,200 by 60 that gives us 20 rounds from 1 gun every second.
20x8=480 rounds from all guns in a 1 second period.
480x3=1440

A 3 second burst into an enemy aircraft unleashes 1,440 rounds into it.
The hurricane and spitfire both had around 16 seconds worth of fire.
Logically it speaks for itself.
Maybe the aircraft might not suffer structual failure (like a spit or hurricane would) but the vital parts would most likely be hit and pilot killed/wounded.

[TomcatViP]

Originally Posted by Gerbil Maximus

The .303's are under powered. You can read many accounts from pilots that state giving german aircraft in the battle a 2-3 second burst and watching the aircraft disintegrate before their eyes. For larger aircraft of course more power was needed hence the introduction of the 20mm.
But everyone presumes that because the round is a .303 it wont do much damage, a single .303 wont do much thats true but were are talking huge volumes of rounds.
Lets do the maths }
8 guns
Each gun can fire 1,200 rpm (lightened breaches etc for aircraft use)
So thats 9,600rounds in 1 minute.
So if we divide 1,200 by 60 that gives us 20 rounds from 1 gun every second.
20x8=480 rounds from all guns in a 1 second period.
480x3=1440

A 3 second burst into an enemy aircraft unleashes 1,440 rounds into it.
The hurricane and spitfire both had around 16 seconds worth of fire.
Logically it speaks for itself.
Maybe the aircraft might not suffer structual failure (like a spit or hurricane would) but the vital parts would most likely be hit and pilot killed/wounded.

HALT!!!!

not all the rounds scored a hit. Actually the proportion is more ard 10% from dead six.

You have to think that you are dealing with munitions that does not have a straight path, are fired from a flexible wing out of a vibrating barrel from a 100m distance.

That's all abt nose mounted armament, high RoF, low offset time and huge kinetic/Explosive power.

Obviously for all of us it shld remain difficult to score a kill with less than 2sec or 3 sec well aimed burst. (ideally without modded guns )

[Geronimo989]

Is there any point in using ball ammo? I take it that it is just a regular bullet? Wouldnt it be better if it was armor piercing or incendiary?

[Hellbender]

Originally Posted by Geronimo989

Is there any point in using ball ammo? I take it that it is just a regular bullet? Wouldnt it be better if it was armor piercing or incendiary?

I assume that regular bullets deal moderate damage to soft and hard components of a plane. Armor piercing rounds deal high damage to hard comp. but low damage to soft components. Incendiary rounds on the contrary deal damage over the time when for isntance that ammo ignites you flaps any you have to watch how the flaps of the Spitfire slowly burns away. If my assumptions and observations are correct, my question arising in that context is what good does the DeWild HE round concerning damage ? Perhaps someone should fly around with only AP or DeWild rounds.

Little side note: I guess oen day the developers will put in Spits and Hurricane versio nwith the Hispano cannon and we will have another discussion here.

Concerning the M-Shell or the german auto cannon: I am relatively successful with it against british planes concerning inflicting critical damage. And from the receiving end seen, only 2-4 cannon shells are quite devastating, especially in the wings since the big wholes left by the shells, negate your truning bonus against a 109 or 110 since you lose lift with wholes in your wings ( I´m talking of big wholes here ,not the MG wholes ).
From my perspective, the cannon shells have an enormous destructive potential and I agree with those you posted in other cannon related shells, that it took 4 cannon hits on a fighter to bring it down (and 20 for a 4 engine bomber). I experienced it often on the ATAG that the 109s manage to hit you luckily (from unorthodox angles) with 2 or 4 cannon shells and the hurricane or Spit has taken severe damage and is no longer able to stay in the fight. Mostly due to a upcomign engine failure (oil leak, govonor failor etc.) I had to land the plane. I didn´t explode in mid air or my wings were ripped apart but I was not able to continue that fight for a longer time and was forced to land somewhere.
Concernign ripping apart, I made the experience that flying almost into the motuh of your target with the 109, 8 to 10 rounds can rip a plane or a wing easily apart from close range when you can´t miss your target anymore .

On the other side I balst 3 seconds into a 110, inflict serious damage and it might be still able to fly, not for long but it had its punishment.
That video should show it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXw4zOQ-R00

Last night on the ATAG server I was able with the default Hurricane Rotol ammo load out and 200m convergence to ignite a 109 (see picture). Igniting planes really occurs seldomly to me. I assume you have to pound the main tank to ignite it porperly .

[TomcatViP]

+1

same here and that's all good for me

[Gerbil Maximus]

Originally Posted by TomcatViP

HALT!!!!

not all the rounds scored a hit. Actually the proportion is more ard 10% from dead six.

You have to think that you are dealing with munitions that does not have a straight path, are fired from a flexible wing out of a vibrating barrel from a 100m distance.

That's all abt nose mounted armament, high RoF, low offset time and huge kinetic/Explosive power.

Obviously for all of us it shld remain difficult to score a kill with less than 2sec or 3 sec well aimed burst. (ideally without modded guns )

Correct all rounds fired would not hit but..
Thats why the guns are harmonized and a gunsight was fitted that could be adjusted so the rounds crossed at the required point.
As for the munitions not having a straight path, you are sort of right.
The correct expression would be ballistic drop which can be accounted for when firing when pilots set their sights at 200 to 250 yds yealding less time to drop before the rounds struck.
Machine guns the same as all weapons of this era they have rifled barrels making the bullet spin and travel straighter and not tumble.
As for the vibrations and flexible wing, have you ever fired a machine gun? Firing when prone is considered stable enough to easily put 80% of the rounds on target at about 300yds, I can then presume using my experience of weaponry that having 8 would cause a large degree of shake within the aircraft but I'm certain the aircrafts build would have been designed to compensate for that shake and for sure the mg mounts within the wing had dampening to reduce this redundancy.

[Sven]

I would also like to leave a comment here, don't assume that shooting from a dead 6 position is the best way to represent the true damage of the guns of an aircraft.

Yesterday on ATAG I was flying a spitfire Ia against the blue horde, and a full 1 second burst into an 109 who was climbing up was enough to kill the pilot and to send him down to the earth in flames. I always try to avoid ending up on someone's 6 when I'm fighting, how strange this might seem to some. I find it to be a very successful way of fighting.

Shooting cannon from a dead 6 position has so far not been very succesful, it's excessive recoil either makes the round jump over or beneath the target, and if it does hit the results aren't that spectacular, although M-geschoss should be quite effective. Again, coming in from an angle gives far better results.

The whole DM needs an overhaul I think.

I just hit on Repka server a spit 2a with M geschoss and panzersprenggranaten in my canons resulting in a huge fireball out of wich the spit came with lost one elevator half and other damage. It still made circles I could not follow and it was able to catch me with ease.

[TomcatViP]

A day in a life of a Spit

[Hellbender]

The issue with the exploding but still flying planes have been eyewitnessed several times, mostly on the Repka server due to the high density of the dogfights.

I also find it much more promising to attack a target not from 6 o´clock level but high or low, especially bombers sicne you can hit in that way the pilot or the fuel tanks better. However the problem remains, that you can´t chose your firing angle often, especially when a 109 tries to escape in a dive. In a dogfight it is a good idea to attack someone while he/she is turning sicne your bullets will have a lots of surface to impact on .