Mustang accident

[winny]

Originally Posted by IamNotDavid

That includes the air show, which distorts the numbers.

The whole accident distorts the figures.

From a few sources it would appear that about 8,000 people were there on the day. If you take it as an isolated incident then obviously that's a much higher chance of being killed. But it only applies to that one race. If you take it as an isolated incident then the number of deaths per race would be 11, and it isn't.

If you get the total number of races, then the total number of people who attended these races and the total number of people killed you'd get the average chance of being killed at the race. I couldn't find total attendance to date, or how many races there have been since it started.

But, 30,000+ people were killed in the US by traffic related accidents.
If it's about unaccetable numbers of people dying then however you dress it up it's trivial when compared to other accidents.

If it's about people smashing vintage warplanes into the ground then why mention deaths. Racing any machine is, has always been, and will always be, dangerous to the participants and the spectators. But the number of people who die is miniscule as a percentage of the overall death total for a year.

Total number of deaths in the USA in 2009 - 2,423,712 - total killed by an out of control aircraft that was involved in a race - 11. (this is actually wrong because I'm using 2009 and nobody died as a result of watching an air race in 2009) But you see my point.

It was tragic but it was also a freak.

Originally Posted by winny

It was tragic but it was also a freak.

Aircraft crash regularly at Reno. As I have pointed out repeatedly, 2 pilots die for every 5 events. That one of them finally crashed into the crowd is not especially freakish considering how often they crash.

[Sammi79]

Originally Posted by IamNotDavid

Aircraft crash regularly at Reno. As I have pointed out repeatedly, 2 pilots die for every 5 events. That one of them finally crashed into the crowd is not especially freakish considering how often they crash.

It is absolutely freakish considering it has happened only once in the entire history of the sport.

You seem to fail to grasp the amount of racing that goes on at Reno, It is hardly 1 event. Several days qualifying followed by a week of heat racing with several races per day, is as I have pointed out to you repeatedly, closely comparable to a whole season in F1 which has a higher death rate per year.

If people want to kill themselves having fun in their own machines, or want to get close enough to watch the spectacle therefore accepting the slight risk that an aircraft may crash on them then who are you or anyone to tell them that they shouldn't? Do you think people would be thankful for being deprived of their passion? I personally can think of worse ways to go.

Originally Posted by Sammi79

It is absolutely freakish considering it has happened only once in the entire history of the sport.

You seem to fail to grasp the amount of racing that goes on at Reno, It is hardly 1 event. Several days qualifying followed by a week of heat racing with several races per day, is as I have pointed out to you repeatedly, closely comparable to a whole season in F1 which has a higher death rate per year.

The fact that it has only happened once does not necessarily make it freakish. The sample size (47) isn't very big. I out of 47 really isn't that freakish, especially when you consider how often they crash.

And is isn't close to an F1 season at all. Each F1 event also has qualifying and practice. A Reno event is similar to a single F1 event, not an entire season. Comparing a single Reno event to an entire season of F1 is absurd.

Originally Posted by Sammi79

If people want to kill themselves having fun in their own machines, or want to get close enough to watch the spectacle therefore accepting the slight risk that an aircraft may crash on them then who are you or anyone to tell them that they shouldn't? Do you think people would be thankful for being deprived of their passion?

Reno racers don't have the right to put people in danger just because they want an audience. Nor do I care what they think about being shut down.

[Sammi79]

Originally Posted by IamNotDavid

The fact that it has only happened once does not necessarily make it freakish. The sample size (47) isn't very big. I out of 47 really isn't that freakish, especially when you consider how often they crash.

since 47 = events & years, once in 47 years is roughly 2% chance per year - thats pretty unlikely, if not freakish.

Originally Posted by IamNotDavid

And is isn't close to an F1 season at all. Each F1 event also has qualifying and practice. A Reno event is similar to a single F1 event, not an entire season. Comparing a single Reno event to an entire season of F1 is absurd.

like i said David, however you refuse to try to counter this argument, 1 event in F1 is equal to roughly 6 hrs racing including practice and qualifying. 1 season in F1 is between 10-20 events (19 atm but this is at the high end if you look at history)

1 event at Reno = several days (for arguments sake lets say 4?) at least 6 hrs per day qualifying = minumum 24 hrs qualifying, which is what you'd get in a season in F1 if you had 12 races in a particular year

After the days qualifying a working week of races (5 days x 6hrs per day) = minumum 30 hrs racing which is equal to a 15 race season in F1.

However you look at it, you cannot say one event at Reno is equatable to one event in F1, but then I fully expect you to repeat '2 deaths per 5 events' as if every time someone got in a plane to race 2/5 times they would die as that's all you have come up with so far. Why not try to argue my point seeing as you wanted to play statistics? I have shown fairly that actually the racing at Reno to be comparably dangerous to F1 and others have added that some motorsports are certainly more dangerous (Isle of Mann TT)

Originally Posted by IamNotDavid

Reno racers don't have the right to put people in danger just because they want an audience. Nor do I care what they think about being shut down.

yes well sorry David I didn't know they forced you to go and watch at gunpoint you have my sympathies. Read what you just wrote! People put themselves knowingly in danger of their own free will because they have accepted the risks and want to watch the racing, is that clear enough for you?

Here's a quote from one of the families of the victims : 'They would have wanted the races to continue...'

Originally Posted by Sammi79

since 47 = events & years, once in 47 years is roughly 2% chance per year - thats pretty unlikely, if not freakish.

It isn't 2% per year, it's 2% over a span of about 4 days.

Originally Posted by Sammi79

like i said David, however you refuse to try to counter this argument, 1 event in F1 is equal to roughly 6 hrs racing including practice and qualifying. 1 season in F1 is between 10-20 events (19 atm but this is at the high end if you look at history)

1 event at Reno = several days (for arguments sake lets say 4?) at least 6 hrs per day qualifying = minumum 24 hrs qualifying, which is what you'd get in a season in F1 if you had 12 races in a particular year

Sorry, but that is complete BS. They're not spending 6 hours per day racing at Reno. The crash was in the middle of a 6 lap race. The unlimited course is 8.4 miles. At 400mph the race should last 7.6 minutes. 6 hours of racing per day would be 47 races per day. I'm going to need more than your word that they're running 47 races each day at Reno.

Until then we're going to consider a Reno event to be roughly equivalent to an F1 event.

Originally Posted by Sammi79

Here's a quote from one of the families of the victims : 'They would have wanted the races to continue...'

No one is accusing them of being smart.

[Sammi79]

Originally Posted by IamNotDavid

It isn't 2% per year, it's 2% over a span of about 4 days.

2% over a span of 4 days qualifying + 5 days heat racing per year

Originally Posted by IamNotDavid

Sorry, but that is complete BS. They're not spending 6 hours per day racing at Reno. The crash was in the middle of a 6 lap race. The unlimited course is 8.4 miles. At 400mph the race should last 7.6 minutes. 6 hours of racing per day would be 47 races per day. I'm going to need more than your word that they're running 47 races each day at Reno.

Until then we're going to consider a Reno event to be roughly equivalent to an F1 event.

We? you mean you I guess? (and only you so far) So because you are unwilling to look at the actual numbers you go with a grotesquely simplified set that supports only your argument, and is no less BS than mine. I freely admit that using numbers in this way is at the least misleading and at the worst just plain false, that's been my point all along. How is looking at it your way more correct than mine?

So to continue to give you examples - lets factor in all the time starting up, time taking off, time landing, and the fact it is heats (many short races) + all the extra aerobatics and displays that go on in between for varying amounts of time, again landing/ taking off I could be wrong but to me it seems plausible that there are planes zipping around above people for at 4-6 hrs per day. We can keep going forever with the imaginary numbers David.

Originally Posted by IamNotDavid

No one is accusing them of being smart.

Again with the insults - towards the victims no less.
How do these people harm you in any way, shape or form? what is the cause of your malice about this?

Originally Posted by Sammi79

Read what you just wrote! People put themselves knowingly in danger of their own free will because they have accepted the risks and want to watch the racing, is that clear enough for you?

The people who put themselves in danger at Reno have no idea what sort of risk they are taking. That has been shown beyond any reasonable doubt on this very thread.

[bongodriver]

It isn't 2% per year, it's 2% over a span of about 4 days.

Which happen once a year....so it's 2% a year

No one is accusing them of being smart.

Oh the irony...

[Sammi79]

Originally Posted by IamNotDavid

The people who put themselves in danger at Reno have no idea what sort of risk they are taking. That has been shown beyond any reasonable doubt on this very thread.

So who has commented in this thread who has been to Reno and how have they shown you beyond reasonable doubt that they don't understand the risks?