water cannon

[MD_Titus]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

your statement clearly shows you're not reading what I write, or that my English is not good enough, or that you don't understand your own language. Read my posts again and please give me a valid reason why people licensed from the institution couldn't own semiauto full bore firearms and pistols.


no, my definition of agree is respecting the fact that some people can own certain firearms and that you don't have to fear from them, since they won't jump on you and shoot your head off. It sounds like you think that every gun owner is a nutter!!


Ok, according to the theory of both of you, if I seek something cos I like it I should be kept away from it?!

You two sound like the envious losers who slag people who own fast cars just because they can't afford it..

Talking of which, here's another comparison: say that I like fast cars, which have a serious potential of infringing the law because of their speed, and that we could well do without, since you can have a normal car for your commuting. Shall we forbid fast cars just cos they serve no purpose? Or shall we be free to own something that yes, potentially it can be used to infringe the law and even kill someone, but still it's our own personal free choice to spend our own money?

If tight gun legislation prevents ONE person being killed by someone who had previously passed whatever tests were in place, and who legally owned their firearms... It's done it's job. End of, simple as that. It's not a failing of language that prevents you understanding this stance, which is shared by my countrymen in this thread, it's a failing of logic.

That you continue to debate this, and draw in irrelevant examples such as jealousy (!) of car owners just goes to further to illustrate the fatal flaw. Guns, in the wrong hands, kill people. The wrong hands may have been the right hands yesterday. Doing everythjng within the UK governments power to prevent that is, in the eyes of the majority of citizens of the UK, a Good Thing.

Originally Posted by brando

" A bit of military or para-military discipline never did any harm to anyone."

Leaving aside the IRA. UDA. PIRA. UVF. RIRA. RHD. and various other para-military groups who did an awful lot of harm to the peaceful citizens of their country?

Or maybe consider the cross-border flow of drugs for guns across the Rio Grande?

But it's really no use talking to a person whose gun fetish outweighs his compassion....

+1
Indeed.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

I'm still talking facts here man, get your facts right then tell me about yours..

You keep on ignoring a really huge one, so why should we?

Originally Posted by Hood

That goes both ways doesn't it.

Quite.

Originally Posted by Hood

You take responsibility? I presume you have a cape to twirl whilst you dish out punishment in your vigilante alter ego?

I presume that you know that the "right to bear arms" has different interpretations, and that it was formulated in the late 18th century? By people who had to support the idea of armed insurrection as that is what they had just done?

I don't have to defend my nation as my government does that on my behalf, and I trust them to do so. Owning a gun wouldn't help me defuse an IED in Afghanistan, or stop a terrorist attack. How do you defend your nation by owning a gun? Owning a gun doesn't empower you to do anything at all; that's what the rule of law does.

It really doesn't bother me that the USA allows the right to bear arms. It's your country and your politicians and if you vote for them and they let you have what you want then that's fine. If you disagree with your government by all means form a militia and march on Washington. It'll make great TV whilst it lasts.

However, don't criticise another country's peoples and laws just because you do not agree with them. If you're not a citizen then it's really none of your business. That goes for the whole guns are great/bad argument.

Giggle away.

Cracking post. Although the image of Stern as big daddy (Kick-Ass) is bkth amusing and disturbing...

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

then you must live in some remote part of the UK and you don't watch TV news. Seriously? That's pure denial.


cos every man there is asked to defend his country, just like when you had the territorial Army here during the war. Maybe that's why you are against guns, you watched too many re-runs of Dad's Army..

it's off topic, but I'd be genuinely interested to know why, feel free to PM me about it.

that's a somehow romantic view, guns can be used to defend yourself when you'd be easily overcome by someone stronger or in greater numbers than you. It's a battle leveller: if everyone has the same offensive potential, everyone stays calm. It's what our governments do with nuclear weapons: they don't use 'em, but they're there, just in case..



yeah, but that was a bit over the line here.. as you know banjos are Luthier's fav instrument

I find the depths of your delusion disturbing.

News reports make it seem every street has it's own paedo, crack dealer, terrorist cell and serial killer. "if you don't read the newspapers you're uninformed, if you do read them you're misinformed".

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by MD_Titus

If tight gun legislation prevents ONE person being killed by someone who had previously passed whatever tests were in place, and who legally owned their firearms... It's done it's job. End of, simple as that. It's not a failing of language that prevents you understanding this stance, which is shared by my countrymen in this thread, it's a failing of logic.

That you continue to debate this, and draw in irrelevant examples such as jealousy (!) of car owners just goes to further to illustrate the fatal flaw. Guns, in the wrong hands, kill people. The wrong hands may have been the right hands yesterday. Doing everythjng within the UK governments power to prevent that is, in the eyes of the majority of citizens of the UK, a Good Thing.

+1
Indeed.

You keep on ignoring a really huge one, so why should we?

Quite.

Cracking post. Although the image of Stern as big daddy (Kick-Ass) is bkth amusing and disturbing...


I find the depths of your delusion disturbing.

News reports make it seem every street has it's own paedo, crack dealer, terrorist cell and serial killer. "if you don't read the newspapers you're uninformed, if you do read them you're misinformed".

You know what, I'm not even making an effort to answer your posts anymore, you came out for what you are: a person that is lazy, uninformed and cares about his country only when others (read "foreigners") question its rules, to which you can only obey like a sheep, not only cos you're uninformed, but cos you don't even use your own right to defend your opinion, the vote. You're the kind of person that is ruining this country, carry on with your obtuse and condescending behaviour, I'm sure it'll get you far..

[MD_Titus]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

You know what, I'm not even making an effort to answer your posts anymore, you came out for what you are: a person that is lazy, uninformed and cares about his country only when others (read "foreigners") question its rules, to which you can only obey like a sheep, not only cos you're uninformed, but cos you don't even use your own right to defend your opinion, the vote. You're the kind of person that is ruining this country, carry on with your obtuse and condescending behaviour, I'm sure it'll get you far..

utter tosh.

again you ignore the salient point - the majority of UK citizens are happy with the restricted ownership of guns. most, if not all, would also support even harsher sentencing for illegal ownership of guns.

this is the law of the land.

it is democratically supported.

i vote in national and local elections.

and i am far from uninformed.

sending armed troops onto the street to deal with rioters is the reserve of syria. the riots happened for very deeply ingrained issues, and quickly degenerated into simply looting... which is again a result of deeply ingrained issues. as soon as a sufficient police response was established the problem was extinguished, and with a minimal loss of life.

with less restricted gun ownership (and don't ignore that a lot of those currently on remand for their part in the riots were first offenders with no psychiatric issues which would preclude gun ownership), or a heavily armed response... it would've been a bloodbath.

when people cite the laws of other countries and wish to implement them in this country, i will defend my country and the laws i live under where i agree with them - and if i do not i will still respect the democratic process that has led to their implementation. i will not bitch and moan that the laws should be changed simply because it inconveniences me. and i will do this regardless of who i am arguing with.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by MD_Titus

utter tosh.

utter tosh?! First of all, was I talking to you? No. Second thing, you reckon that a citizen that doesn't vote or doesn't understand the importance and value of his vote is a responsible one?

again you ignore the salient point - the majority of UK citizens are happy with the restricted ownership of guns. most, if not all, would also support even harsher sentencing for illegal ownership of guns.

this is the law of the land.

it is democratically supported.

i vote in national and local elections.

and i am far from uninformed.

oh yes, I remember when they made a referendum on the subject, and citizen were asked whether they would be for or against the prohibiting of only certain firearms instead of re-thinking the gun policies.. oh wait, it never happened, they did choose what's better for you (and them: blame the firearms, not their ineffective laws)..

But because it never was an effective change, after years another gun massacre happened, and instead of raising the obvious question "should police officers be armed in order to face such rare but possible outbursts of violence?", they watched impotent as an armed man held a part of the country hostage of terror, because the police forces couldn't stop him for 4 hours (he started shooting at around 10am, and the police was notified by 10.20), cos even when they started following him in the car, the PCs were unharmed and had no mean of stopping him..
Try and say "sorry, but shit happens" to the families of the 13 victims. It's a bloody shambles, and there's no justification for it. Times are changing, and police should adapt their methods to a society that is getting more violent (with or without firearms).

sending armed troops onto the street to deal with rioters is the reserve of syria. the riots happened for very deeply ingrained issues, and quickly degenerated into simply looting... which is again a result of deeply ingrained issues. as soon as a sufficient police response was established the problem was extinguished, and with a minimal loss of life.

erm, no, you probably still think that Armed troops would do what the English Army did in Ireland, but that's other times..
as soon as?! 4 days?!?! The looting stopped mainly cos there was nothing left to loot, not because of the "adequate policing", let's not forget they are the one who said "we were not ready for this" (utterly insane!) and are now changing their methods and bosses.

with less restricted gun ownership (and don't ignore that a lot of those currently on remand for their part in the riots were first offenders with no psychiatric issues which would preclude gun ownership), or a heavily armed response... it would've been a bloodbath.

..seriously? And you think that you'd issue a lot of gun licenses to people that live in potentially dangerous areas, who are on welfare or have a criminal record? Besides it's a matter of armed police forces in that case: nowadays people well know the threat of an armed police officer in front of them and get contained easily. See what happens in the rest of the world when riot police gets on the roads.

Uh and since you mentioned Syria, which is a corrupt regime, I could tell you "see what happened in Lybia when citizens gets weapons: they dispose of tyrants".

Considering how soft bellied and spoiled we are nowadays, if the UK became a corrupt regime you'd just keep calm and carry on..

when people cite the laws of other countries and wish to implement them in this country, i will defend my country and the laws i live under where i agree with them - and if i do not i will still respect the democratic process that has led to their implementation. i will not bitch and moan that the laws should be changed simply because it inconveniences me. and i will do this regardless of who i am arguing with.

The UK laws do not inconvenience me at all, I am just stressing on the fact that some laws are indeed ridiculous and only offer an illusion of safety, because they address the problem in a fascist way (denying their own fault and depriving you of things).

[winny]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

oh yes, I remember when they made a referendum on the subject, and citizen were asked whether they would be for or against the prohibiting of only certain firearms instead of re-thinking the gun policies.. oh wait, it never happened, they did choose what's better for you (and them: blame the firearms, not their ineffective laws)..

Me again No, what happened is they said 'we're banning handguns' the vast Majority of the UK went 'Oh, Ok..' There was no popular movement crying out that Handguns shold't be banned, you just don't get that the majority of people in the UK just don't give a sh*t about guns.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

But because it never was an effective change, after years another gun massacre happened, and instead of raising the obvious question "should police officers be armed in order to face such rare but possible outbursts of violence?", they watched impotent as an armed man held a part of the country hostage of terror, because the police forces couldn't stop him for 4 hours (he started shooting at around 10am, and the police was notified by 10.20), cos even when they started following him in the car, the PCs were unharmed and had no mean of stopping him..
Try and say "sorry, but shit happens" to the families of the 13 victims. It's a bloody shambles, and there's no justification for it. Times are changing, and police should adapt their methods to a society that is getting more violent (with or without firearms).

This point is about arming the Police, not arming the population. You mistrust the Police and want to arm them too?! All over the place...

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

erm, no, you probably still think that Armed troops would do what the English Army did in Ireland, but that's other times..
as soon as?! 4 days?!?! The looting stopped mainly cos there was nothing left to loot, not because of the "adequate policing", let's not forget they are the one who said "we were not ready for this" (utterly insane!) and are now changing their methods and bosses.

Why on earth would you bring up bloody sunday, another cheap shot against the UK. I said it before, leave. I don't want you here, slagging us of whilst taking our money, double standards.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

..seriously? And you think that you'd issue a lot of gun licenses to people that live in potentially dangerous areas, who are on welfare or have a criminal record? Besides it's a matter of armed police forces in that case: nowadays people well know the threat of an armed police officer in front of them and get contained easily. See what happens in the rest of the world when riot police gets on the roads.

What happens is people die. Apple can afford to restock their shop. Or is money more important than life?

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

Considering how soft bellied and spoiled we are nowadays, if the UK became a corrupt regime you'd just keep calm and carry on..

Bull. Utterly wrong. (And I take it the 'we' you mean you)

Your air of superiority is palpable.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by winny

Me again No, what happened is they said 'we're banning handguns' the vast Majority of the UK went 'Oh, Ok..' There was no popular movement crying out that Handguns shold't be banned, you just don't get that the majority of people in the UK just don't give a sh*t about guns.

even if you cared you wouldn't have obtained anything.

See what happened lately with the insane raise of university taxes, you tell me that nobody cared? It affected (and will affect) students, universities and employees.. thousands of people got on the road to protest, but in that case the police was quite swift in sending everybody home there.. don't you really see what they do to our society?!

This point is about arming the Police, not arming the population. You mistrust the Police and want to arm them too?! All over the place...

no, arming the police AND arming citizens who are deemed as suitable by a fair and adequate institution. Disarming everybody seems the easiest solution, but in fact you deprive people of their own basic rights.

Why on earth would you bring up bloody sunday, another cheap shot against the UK. I said it before, leave. I don't want you here, slagging us of whilst taking our money, double standards.

it burns uh? it's your heritage, like the bloody heritage of any other modern country.. Your beloved Cromwell killed 3500 Irish people in the Siege of Drogheda; the Croke Park Massacre, the Bogside Massacre (Bloody Sunday).. shall I carry on? Your country is not better or worse than many others.

Yeah, taking your money, your women.. anything else?
Fortunately they're not all arrogant, ignorant bigots like yourself, besides how are you gonna make me leave exactly, talking me out of here?
You can't even control your own immigration flow, and people from abroad who bother studying and making a career come here and get your best jobs.. you're lazy, you don't vote, you don't understand the importance of your own rights and you bark at the people who try to instill some good sense in your sheep mentality.. as I said before, you're the worst England. Uh, and I'm not telling you this as an Italian, I'm telling you this as a worker and taxpayer, who holds the same rights and duties as you do (and I do bother to vote), regardless of where I'm coming from.

What happens is people die. Apple can afford to restock their shop. Or is money more important than life?

yeah, people die anyway, as for your brilliant equation, it's not money that is more important than life, but it's respect for laws and above all self-respect. What kind of low life scum idiot does what we saw happening? Someone we surely won't miss.

Bull. Utterly wrong. (And I take it the 'we' you mean you)

Your air of superiority is palpable.

Utterly wrong, why? Elaborate.
I don't feel superior, in the end of the day we're all human beings, I think it's you who's starting to feel inferior, since you got all aggressive..

[winny]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

even if you cared you wouldn't have obtained anything.

See what happened lately with the insane raise of university taxes, you tell me that nobody cared? It affected (and will affect) students, universities and employees.. thousands of people got on the road to protest, but in that case the police was quite swift in sending everybody home there.. don't you really see what they do to our society?!

No, I said nobody cared about guns, I was talking about guns, remember?

Universtity fees (taxes?) is a seperate issue? Who was protesting? Students. Who protested at the banning of handguns? Handgun owners, it means nothing. It's just tough

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

no, arming the police AND arming citizens who are deemed as suitable by a fair and adequate institution. Disarming everybody seems the easiest solution, but in fact you deprive people of their own basic rights.

So what? laws are restrictions of rights the more stupid the population gets the more laws are brought in. They didn't disarm everyone, if you've got a good enough reason and you pass the criteria you can still get one.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

it burns uh? it's your heritage, like the bloody heritage of any other modern country.. Your beloved Cromwell killed 3500 Irish people in the Siege of Drogheda; the Croke Park Massacre, the Bogside Massacre (Bloody Sunday).. shall I carry on? Your country is not better or worse than many others.

I have relatives who were there. You really are an obnoxious person.

Where did I say my country was better, where would you like me to start with Italy? 20th Century?

Truth is, none of these points you raise have any relevance to the discussion.

You brought Bloody Sunday up why? What point were you making?

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

since you got all aggressive..

Where? You can't handle it not me. Where Have I ranted on like you do?
Bringing all manner of historical attrocities and wrong doings, for what? To defend your hobby. I have kept to arguing my case not throwing so much sh*t around hoping some sticks.

[Bewolf]

If I listen to my inner child, I can more then understand this fascination with guns. As a mature adult however, I can't.

A gun is a tool made for killing. That is it's sole purpose. The only way a gun thus makes sense is that killing is acceptable under certain conditions in any given society. Once that line of thinking is established, it is rather easy for people to justify their own reasons for using deadly force. That applies to criminals as much as to people defending themselves.

This whole debate is questionably a debate between instinct and rationals.
Instinct dictates the right for defence of home, family and one's own life without trusting others or institutions to do that job. THat is an emotion I can more then understand.

However, Rational dictates to ban killing outright (including the death penalty) and a ban on tools for killing is a logical consequence. At first glance this may look naive, as there always will be people willing to use deadly force. However, a) emotional barriers will be higher (yes, it does make a difference for people if you told them as a child that it is ok to use deadly force in some circumstances opposite to telling them that killing is wrong, period)

and b) a lack of tools for that purpose makes it quite a bit harder from a purely physical PoV.

It's a simple matter of maths. Ban on firearms=fewer firearms=fewer kills. The individual may feel more unsafe without lethal means for defense, but that person is also much less likely to be confronted with a firearm.

That said, there are some grave differences between the US and the UK; or any other european country for that matter. In the US there is a lot of space for people to spread out. In Europe there is not. And the fewer space there is for a society to spread out, the more there is a need for compromise.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

If I listen to my inner child, I can more then understand this fascination with guns. As a mature adult however, I can't.

A gun is a tool made for killing. That is it's sole purpose. The only way a gun thus makes sense is that killing is acceptable under certain conditions in any given society. Once that line of thinking is established, it is rather easy for people to justify their own reasons for using deadly force. That applies to criminals as much as to people defending themselves.

This whole debate is questionably a debate between instinct and rationals.
Instinct dictates the right for defence of home, family and one's own life without trusting others or institutions to do that job. THat is an emotion I can more then understand.

However, Rational dictates to ban killing outright (including the death penalty) and a ban on tools for killing is a logical consequence. At first glance this may look naive, as there always will be people willing to use deadly force. However, a) emotional barriers will be higher (yes, it does make a difference for people if you told them as a child that it is ok to use deadly force in some circumstances opposite to telling them that killing is wrong, period)

and b) a lack of tools for that purpose makes it quite a bit harder from a purely physical PoV.

It's a simple matter of maths. Ban on firearms=fewer firearms=fewer kills. The individual may feel more unsafe without lethal means for defense, but that person is also much less likely to be confronted with a firearm.

That said, there are some grave differences between the US and the UK; or any other european country for that matter. In the US there is a lot of space for people to spread out. In Europe there is not. And the fewer space there is for a society to spread out, the more there is a need for compromise.

bewolf, people get killed regardless of firearms, if someone wants to kill, he/she still will do it, with or without a gun.

Following your idea we shouldn't even have armies, nor embark in things like invading other countries for "peacekeeping". This kind of societal hypocrisy really annoys me.

[MD_Titus]

With respect badaim, i'd disagree it's giving up a freedom for security, more surrenderibg a priviledge and a responsibility that can, in a small number of cases, be abused with horrible consequences. I doubt many would phrase narcotics prohibition with a curtailment of freedom, which could be taken as a parallel.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

utter tosh?! First of all, was I talking to you? No. Second thing, you reckon that a citizen that doesn't vote or doesn't understand the importance and value of his vote is a responsible one?


oh yes, I remember when they made a referendum on the subject, and citizen were asked whether they would be for or against the prohibiting of only certain firearms instead of re-thinking the gun policies.. oh wait, it never happened, they did choose what's better for you (and them: blame the firearms, not their ineffective laws)..

But because it never was an effective change, after years another gun massacre happened, and instead of raising the obvious question "should police officers be armed in order to face such rare but possible outbursts of violence?", they watched impotent as an armed man held a part of the country hostage of terror, because the police forces couldn't stop him for 4 hours (he started ishooting at around 10am, and the police was notified by 10.20), cos even when they started following him in the car, the PCs were unharmed and had no mean of stopping him..
Try and say "sorry, but shit happens" to the families of the 13 victims. It's a bloody shambles, and there's no justification for it. Times are changing, and police should adapt their methods to a society that is getting more violent (with or without firearms).


erm, no, you probably still think that Armed troops would do what the English Army did in Ireland, but that's other times..
as soon as?! 4 days?!?! The looting stopped mainly cos there was nothing left to loot, not because of the "adequate policing", let's not forget they are the one who said "we were not ready for this" (utterly insane!) and are now changing their methods and bosses.


..seriously? And you think that you'd issue a lot of gun licenses to people that live in potentially dangerous areas, who are on welfare or have a criminal record? Besides it's a matter of armed police forces in that case: nowadays people well know the threat of an armed police officer in front of them and get contained easily. See what happens in the rest of the world when riot police gets on the roads.

Uh and since you mentioned Syria, which is a corrupt regime, I could tell you "see what happened in Lybia when citizens gets weapons: they dispose of tyrants".

Considering how soft bellied and spoiled we are nowadays, if the UK became a corrupt regime you'd just keep calm and carry on..



The UK laws do not inconvenience me at all, I am just stressing on the fact that some laws are indeed ridiculous and only offer an illusion of safety, because they address the problem in a fascist way (denying their own fault and depriving you of things).

You quoted me, so seems you were talking to me. You also clearly implied I did not exercise my right to vote. And no, I don't think someone who either doesn't vote, or who votes without making an informed decision, is a responsible citizen. All laws obly offer an illusion of safety, it's only if people adhere to them that they are truly effective. I find your implied intention to only arm the employed and those living in "safe" areas rather disturbing though, and ironically extremely fascistic. One law for the rich much? Preventing gun ownership on economic terms would represent a horrific curtailment of the principles of equality that this country tries to live by. This delusion that the country is more dangerous and violent ignores crime statistics, or only reads them without also understanding the much improved level of reporting crime. Sounds very Daily "going to hell in a handcart" Mail.

The rioting stopped because all police leave was cancelled and they flooded the streets, not because the country had been stripped bare. Not a fast enough response, but that's not bei.g debated. Are greek and french police forces routinely armed? How about their riot handling ability?

Oh, and I find the idea of a corrupt uk government amusing when cited by an italian.